Posts by feralranger

nimblemarlin6 said:If someone in a marriage cheats—but we’re talking purely physical, zero emotional strings attached, just a way to blow off steam—why is that considered some kind of moral catastrophe?
Sure, traditional religious views call it a sin, but if you aren't religious, why should it be an issue?
Picture this: your spouse heads out for a massive corporate retreat over a weekend—lots of activities like paintball, white-water rafting, touring some historic estate, followed by a steak dinner, drinks, and a wild party. Somewhere in that mix, things get physical with someone else.
Then your partner comes home feeling refreshed, recharged, maybe even carrying a little extra energy from the trip...
What happened at the retreat stays at the retreat.
And the couple just carries on, happily managing their life together—the mortgage, the kids, the daily grind.

Where is the actual harm in that?

If there is no jealousy, there is no emotional damage—not to mention the total absence of material loss—and if there is no damage, one could argue there can be no actual *sin*.

However, since most people in that particular arena (to distinguish it from philia) are inherently prone to jealousy, they end up causing significant emotional distress to others. It is from that specific fallout that the *sin* arises.

coastalwalker9 said:It’s starting to become somewhat unclear to me as well that Sisyphus simply doesn't grasp this. Or perhaps, more likely, he just refuses to.

It isn't about jealousy, really; it’s simply that I can't envision myself participating in those kinds of multi-partner relationships.

To illustrate, if I were to insist that my friend Steve had no other companions besides myself, and felt a certain sense of unease at the mere thought of him befriending Simon—that would imply a level of jealousy within the realm of friendship.

The situation you are describing functions in much the same way, only it pertains to the erotic sphere (which, for the vast majority of people, is precisely how it works).

Melissa Rogers4 said:Are you saying it’s impossible for a man and a woman to be non-jealous and still want a relationship where they don't share their intimacy with anyone else? Answer that first, then we can move on...

No. A person can be with whoever they want and end things whenever they feel like it. You just have to be honest instead of hiding stuff. Hiding things is the actual issue, not the jealousy itself...

If one female friend were to tell another that she insists on a monopoly and views the expansion of philia love to a third party as undesirable, I would naturally conclude that we are dealing with jealousy rather than some noble desire to spread affection.

The same logic applies here. (Though, if one must note a crucial distinction, the vast majority of people within the sphere of philia are not prone to jealousy, whereas those in the erotic sphere certainly are.)

coastalwalker9 said:We are discussing infidelity here, not some perfect scenario where circumstances align so flawlessly that cheating doesn't even become an option.

Personally, when I am in a relationship, I don't feel the need to seek out anyone else. I honestly can't wrap my head around what it would even look like to distribute love in multiple directions at once.
Attraction? Sure, that happens. But love is something I can only feel for one person. That one exclusive connection. Everything surrounding that love might be a form of gratification, but
I'm not looking for mere gratification; I want it with that one specific person for whom I feel love.

One can only speak of "infidelity" if there is a victim involved; however, it is impossible to have a victim—in the sense of someone being emotionally wounded—if the parties involved are not experiencing jealousy, but are instead finding joy in the expansion of not just philia, but erotic love as well.

Melissa Rogers4 said:Because I want a relationship with one woman, not a rotation. Once I’m in, I want to give my all to her without worrying about someone else taking up that same energy. I’m looking for a partner who wants what I want—to be everything to each other, rather than just filling half the gaps because the other half is being handled elsewhere. I wouldn't even start something if she asked if I'd mind her seeing other people under the logic that love can be shared. While I appreciate generosity, I'm looking for someone who saves that devotion just for me... and nobody else. Just a monogamous connection. I want to be hers, and I want her to be mine. Wanting to keep things between us isn't about being jealous; it's about protecting something that belongs solely to us. A third person just complicates that bond...

I follow your logic, certainly, yet one could argue that those who exhibit jealousy within the sphere of *philia* would express similar sentiments. In that context, even a third friend—one who might socialize with your chosen "best friend"—would be deemed undesirable.

If I may paraphrase the biblical sentiment (I am your God, jealous, have no other gods besides me)) to apply to your romantic life, you are essentially demanding this position:

"I am your partner, jealous; have no other men besides me."

One might suggest that insisting upon exclusivity is, in fact, an implicit expression of jealousy regarding the possibility of spreading one's affection to others.

If love is truly devoid of jealousy, then it ceases to be exclusive. Such a (truly non-jealous) affection is, for most people, merely a friendship or *philia*, as opposed to the erotic kind, which inherently is not.

coastalwalker9 said:I was actually referring to the internal sensation I would experience within myself, toward my own character, had I been the one to cheat. In such a scenario, I would simply feel dirty and revolting to my own conscience.

Understood, but if the individual you are involved with is (truly not) jealous, and instead tells you: "It is wonderful that you shared that human experience with someone else as well," then presumably, one would find no reason to feel soiled or repulsive.

Melissa Rogers4 said:Sisyphus, you set things up as an exclusive relationship where it’s just the two of you. You can be jealous or not, but you don't want a third person involved. Then, when your partner ignores that boundary, you try to claim it doesn't matter because if you aren't feeling jealous, there's no issue. But it does matter, because it's about a lack of respect. Another thing is that the relationship started out open and everyone was on board. Once it stops being open, then it becomes an issue—not necessarily because of jealousy, but because someone is hiding the fact that they actually want to be with someone else...

If jealousy isn't even part of the equation, then why on earth would you insist on exclusivity? In the realm of *philia*—that deep, platonic affection—one likely doesn't feel much jealousy, which means there is no real reason to demand exclusivity or a monopoly on friendship, right? Of course, there are those rare individuals who actually *do* experience jealousy in that sphere, and for them, a perceived "betrayal" might occur simply because their best friend starts hanging out with someone else. (Though, I should note that those who harbor jealousy within *philia*, rather than just in romantic love, are quite a small minority indeed).

Melissa Rogers4 said:Here’s why:
1. letting feelings shift without saying a word, just keeping them buried
2. hanging out with people in ways you know would hurt your partner
3. pretending everything is fine and that you're still a team when you aren't

How many more reasons do you need...

Well, obviously, I concur; however, if jealousy isn't present, there is quite simply no motivation for points one, two, or three, much like how those motivations simply don't exist within a non-jealous friendship or philia-based love..

Melissa Rogers4 said:You were replying to that post about how cheating just feels plain dirty. The idea is that beyond just jealousy, there are other reasons why being unfaithful is such a turn-off. It's kind of like when food just tastes bad...

I haven't encountered any of those alternative motives yet, especially since they all seem to eventually boil down to that unpleasant sensation which, quite frankly, is just jealousy in disguise. I suppose one could argue religious reasons exist outside of that, but nobody here seems to be invoking God.

Melissa Rogers4 said:Why would anyone be grossed out by eating something if they don't have stomach issues? Just because they don't like the food. Sure, they could eat it without any digestive trouble, but if it tastes bad, they aren't going to force it down. They're healthy, so it's not like anything's going to happen. Come on, Sisyphus...

In my estimation, no decent woman—or indeed, any functioning human being, for that matter—would ever truly feel "repulsed" (barring some extreme outliers or criminals), which leads me to believe that suggesting one's love for another person could be characterized by such visceral disgust is an entirely misguided comparison.

fadedcobra7 said:So, are you actually in a polyamorous relationship right now?

I know a few people living that lifestyle—mostly couples in open relationships, but also a couple of trios.

I’ve certainly experienced those conflicting internal tides; for instance, finding myself profoundly *in love* with one woman in an almost asexual capacity, while simultaneously feeling an intense erotic pull toward another, with whom I was actually dating. Since my feelings for the first girl—who was nominally just a friend—didn't involve any sexual fantasies (let alone acting on them), I foolishly convinced myself I wasn't committing any kind of betrayal... however, much like what that research suggests, women can be significantly more prone to jealousy within that specific emotional sphere, and that is precisely where the misunderstanding took root.

coastalwalker9 said:You end up hurting yourself, too.

There is nothing quite as ugly as that feeling of being unclean and finding yourself utterly repulsive.

But why would anyone feel revulsion if there is no jealousy involved and no one else is being caused distress? If, however, that sense of unease does manifest, then I suppose I must agree, as it is hardly a noble thing to inflict such negative emotions upon others.

coastalwalker9 said:Infidelity is a betrayal of both oneself and your partner.

I find myself in agreement. If anyone gets hurt, we are firmly in the territory of deception.

However, if there is no jealousy involved, then there is no emotional damage inflicted; and since, in such a vacuum, there is also no material loss, one could argue there is no actual cheating occurring. But, should that jealousy manifest, then emotional damage follows—given that it is a rather unpleasant sensation—and at that specific juncture, the label of 'cheating' finally gains its necessary substance.

coastalwalker9 said:You seem quite captivated by this particular topic, not just today, but whenever it surfaces; you have revisited the subjects of jealousy and monogamy countless times now. It makes me wonder: what is the root of this fixation?
Is it a desire to be with multiple women that you simply don't act upon, or perhaps you do practice it but feel burdened by the need for secrecy because your partners are jealous—or is there some other underlying motivation?

Whatever the case may be, it is abundantly clear that this subject draws you in like a magnet.

I find myself preoccupied with psychology... specifically, the fascinating nature of human self-deception. One could argue that almost every politician in Washington claims to be driven by pure altruism, and if we put them all through a polygraph, the machines might not even register a "lie" simply because most individuals have successfully convinced themselves of their own sincerity. However, I remain acutely aware of these psychological delusions, which allows me to see through the facade. It is that underlying psychological layer—that sub-layer beneath the conscious persona—that truly fascinates me when discussing topics such as these.

Melissa Rogers4 said:The whole idea of sharing a partner just doesn't sit right with me, even though I'm not really the jealous type. I want to have something that's just ours. It’s not about being possessive, it’s more that the sense of exclusivity kind of fades away in a (semi)open relationship. If we both view our connection the same way, then you shouldn't be doing things behind your partner's back. It's about trust, Sisyphus. Not jealousy...

It seems to me that the issue here is quite transparent: you aren't actually polyamorous, you’re simply jealous—which, let’s be honest, puts you in the majority of people who find the idea of sharing their affection with anyone else quite intolerable.

Conversely, when it comes to the realm of platonic friendship, I would argue that most people aren't driven by jealousy, but rather possess a naturally polyamorous capacity for connection.

If one were truly a member of a genuinely non-jealous, polyamorous species, then it would follow logically that sharing love wouldn't feel repulsive at all; instead, one would find genuine happiness in seeing that love expand and multiply.

fadedcobra7 said:feralranger, you're assuming jealousy is the only reason people stick to monogamy, but that's just not true.

If one were entirely devoid of jealousy, who exactly would be harmed by the widespread distribution of love?

I find myself wondering about the nature of connection; specifically, the fact—which I am tentatively assuming—that we don't experience jealousy within friendships, allowing a female friend to share her platonic affection with others quite freely, yet we demand that a partner refrain from expressing even a shred of romantic or erotic devotion to another woman.

Melissa Rogers4 said:Jealousy isn't really the point. It's about the agreement. You break the deal, Sisyphus, that's where the problem lies.
I can be pretty chill and let a lot slide, but if we made an agreement about how our relationship works, then we stick to it. My partner shouldn't try to use my "I'm not even jealous" attitude as an excuse to bypass what we actually decided together. The pact matters more than the emotion...

Well, I suppose such an agreement becomes entirely redundant if jealousy isn't even part of the equation—that is to say, if we were actually living in a world governed by polyamory rather than this relentless jealousy and exclusivity we seem to cling to. In the realm of *philia*, jealousy typically doesn't exist, which would naturally render these little arrangements unnecessary, since they only serve to reduce our connections to a mere monopoly, wouldn't they?

Olivia Smith2 As specified by:
It is quite alright. You are merely repeating the same observation once again, and I find myself in complete agreement with you. Honestly, why on earth should anyone care about what the majority of people feel regarding this matter? It’s truly none of our business.

After all, we aren't exactly living among some hypothetical extraterrestrials—those supposedly enlightened, non-jealous, polyamorous beings from science fiction—but rather among earthlings, who, in most instances, are quite pathologically envious creatures, wouldn't you agree?

fadedcobra7 said:👍

Cheating is a betrayal of trust, a breach of agreement, lying, and acting inauthentically. What you’re talking about is something else entirely. Polyamory versus monogamy—regardless of which path people choose, the key is that they agreed to it and both parties consented and committed to those terms. Cheating happens when one person breaks that pact and hides it through deception. It’s pure dishonesty and a betrayal of trust.

Exactly.

And figuring out who is at fault in my book is simple. It's definitely the person who cheated. If they weren't happy in the relationship, they could have just ended it cleanly.

In many cases, cheating stems from a personality disorder—like Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A person feels this constant urge to conquer others just to get that "narcissistic supply" from different sources, boosting their own ego and proving to themselves how desirable they are to various partners.

Going back to my original point: it comes down to character, personality, and personal integrity.

Now, if you ask me what's harder to live with—short-term, it's easier to cheat, but long-term, it's much harder to deal with the fact that you cheated and spat on your own integrity. Even if you aren't in that relationship anymore, you still have to recalibrate with yourself and face the reality of being someone capable of breaking their word, regardless of the circumstances. Of course, not everyone cares about their integrity, but for me, it matters deeply.

If there truly—and I mean genuinely, not just as some empty, flowery platitude—isn't any jealousy or possessiveness involved, much like how it rarely exists in platonic friendships, then such an occurrence would be nothing more than a minor detail, or perhaps even a cause for celebration because love is being spread further rather than sparking conflict or war. However, the reality is that most people are inherently jealous; they suffer through those wretched feelings when their partner finds pleasure with anyone other than themselves, the one and only center of their universe.

feralmoose32 said:Not at all... just keep going

a) If he’s doing it while fantasizing about your friend—or even some random adult film star—does that technically cross the line into cheating?

b) And if this becomes a near-daily ritual, is that actually worse for you, or is it somehow a 'lesser evil' compared to finding out he physically cheated with someone else a year ago—someone he doesn't even care about anymore and isn't even thinking about now, but who wasn't part of the scenario described in a?

fadedheron said:Based on that logic, yes, I am possessive.🙂

I certainly grasp the logic there, and frankly, it seems perfectly standard, given that the vast majority of people tend to be quite jealous or possessive when it comes to the erotic side of love. In contrast, when we look at the sphere of philia—that deeper, companionate affection—jealousy and exclusivity are much less common, and for many, they don't exist at all.

neongull62 said:Neither option really works for me. Nothing lasts forever, and I suppose the same goes for relationships; if things aren't clicking anymore, it’s probably better to just sit down and end it like adults in five minutes rather than dragging out the misery for months on end. There's just no sense in that. Though, I guess you sometimes have to go through a bit of hell to finally realize that you have to put yourself first.

One might argue that serial sexual monogamy actually functions as a subset of "polygamy." Pure, non-serial polygamy—in its most literal, physical sense—is an anatomical impossibility, given that a man simply cannot physically penetrate two women simultaneously.

Polyamory, should we be discussing the realm of emotion, is quite a different matter and entirely feasible; one can certainly harbor affection for multiple people at once... though, in my observation, this tends to manifest more through philia, or platonic affection, rather than raw erotic desire.

Olivia Smith2 said:Are you suggesting that even good people are actually bad at heart?

What I am attempting to convey is that human nature isn't some binary, black-and-white construct devoid of any nuance; we aren't merely saints performing endless acts of charity nor are we pure, unadulterated villains.

Frankly, I find myself wondering how much interest there would be if someone were to initiate a new thread centered around a thought experiment—specifically, one featuring a central question followed by a poll:

If you were given the choice, would you actually desire to reside on a planet where polyamory is the societal norm, entirely devoid of jealousy, exclusivity, or the constraints of monogamy?

It would be quite fascinating to observe whether an anonymous survey might reveal any significant discrepancies in responses between the genders.