2014 Canadian GP - Montreal (June 8)

Felipe Massa almost turned into a mass murderer. And honestly, you’d never guess it by looking at him.

So, my take on the engine power after this race is...

General Motors actually made huge strides with their engine. Mercedes-Benz hasn't caught up yet, but Ford has definitely overtaken them.
It’s pretty wild that at a track where the engine is everything, Ford isn't even chasing Red Bull Racing anymore—they're actually struggling to keep up with AlphaTauri...

Alright, Kvyat DNF'd and Vergne only got one shot with Ford and didn't exactly have a stellar race, but still speed trap results tell an interesting story:
both AlphaTauri cars are ahead of Ford, Vettel is ahead of both Fords, Ricciardo is somehow just slightly behind Alonso and Räikkönen, and even Grosjean is right up there with Ford...
And that's despite the fact that Kvyat and Grosjean dropped out, so they probably didn't even show what their engines/cars are truly capable of...
The rest of the General Motors crew folded right at the start anyway, so they’re irrelevant to these numbers.

But the biggest giveaway for me? Sauber. One finished the race, and the other was hanging in there until almost the end, and basically, they were the slowest of anyone who actually made it to the finish line/near the end...

Plus, Mercedes-Benz showed they aren't invincible; when they floor it, things can go sideways fast...

Overall, maybe nobody will actually catch Germany before the season ends, but I think Red Bull Racing could give them a serious run for their money.
Also, regardless of the points standings, it feels clear that Alonso doesn't have even a theoretical chance at the title anymore. It's over.
But for Ricciardo and Vettel, there's still a tiny glimmer of hope...

stormybadger8 said:Basically, my takeaway regarding engine power after this race is...

General Motors has made significant strides with their power units; Mercedes-Benz hasn't caught up yet, but Ford has definitely overtaken them.
It’s interesting that at a track where engine performance is everything, Ford isn't just sitting behind Red Bull Racing anymore—they're actually being hunted by STR...

Sure, Kvyat retired, and Vergne only had one Ford and didn't have an incredible race, but regardless, the speed trap reveals something intriguing:
both STR cars are ahead of Ford, Vettel is ahead of both Fords, Ricciardo is for some strange reason slightly behind Alonso and Kimi, and Grosjean is basically neck-and-neck with Ford...
And that's despite the fact that Kvyat and Grosjean DNF'd, so they likely didn't even record what their engines or cars are truly capable of...
The rest of the General Motors drivers retired right at the start, so they're irrelevant to these results.

But the biggest indicator for me is Sauber; one finished the race, and the other drove almost to the end, and essentially, they were the slowest of everyone who actually made it to the finish or close to it...

Also, Mercedes-Benz showed they aren't invincible; when they floor it, things can go sideways...

All in all, maybe nobody will actually overtake Germany before the season ends, but it looks to me like Red Bull Racing could give them a serious run for their money.
It also seems that regardless of the points standings, it's clear that Alonso no longer has even a theoretical shot at the title; it's simply over.
Still, there's a tiny glimmer of hope left for Ricciardo and Vettel...

What a joke of a hope for Vettel. He has to outperform his teammate first, then he has to deal with those two from Mercedes.

And he's slower than all three of them.

Total joke.

By the way, since we've closed the topic, how many anomalies did you spot in this race?

steelmaker83 said:It's a total long shot for Sebastian Vettel. He’s gotta outpace his own teammate before he even thinks about touching those guys at Mercedes

And let's be real—he'll probably end up slower than all three of them anyway

What a joke

They might start tossing Daniil Kvyat aside just like they did with Mark Webber...

Jason Campbell70 said:So how did the brilliant Fernando Alonso manage through '10 and/or '12?

Your intelligence doesn't mean a thing if you don't have pace.
Pace in the car, or pace as a driver.
Was Jenson Button any less intelligent or resourceful in the seasons before Ross Brawn arrived?

When faced with the choice between a pure racer and a points collector, I'll take the former every single time.
Look at Alonso again—he spent the end of the 2012 season just scavenging for points.
He put himself in a position where he wasn't even in control of his own destiny.

Lewis Hamilton relies on himself.
Nico Rosberg relies on Lewis Hamilton.

And that is precisely the point.

I’m surprised that you, supposedly one of the more intelligent members of this forum, are pushing this narrative about Alonso playing it safe at the end of 2012.

It is sheer nonsense—a display of superficiality and lack of insight comparable to that entire mess regarding the Monaco Grand Prix.

Pardon me for interrupting such an engaging discussion...

Does anyone happen to have a link to that clip where Jenson Button overtakes two or three cars on the final lap?

Thanks...

Ahem, listen up folks—I just want to give us all some credit (since nobody else seems to want to) for actually following this race in such a constructive and productive way. It’s been a long, long time since I've seen anything like it. Honestly, I bet the mods are pretty proud of us 🙂 😂 the frauds are still frauds, the sellouts are still sellouts, and everyone else is exactly where they belong

John Ross55 said:Ahem. Listen up, colleagues. I want to offer some recognition—since apparently nobody else will—for the constructive and productive coverage of this race. We haven't seen anything like it in a long, long time. Kudos to us all; I’m sure the mods are beaming with pride at this level of quality. 🙂 😂 The frauds remain frauds, the mercenaries remain mercenaries, and everyone else can stay exactly where they are.

Karma is karma.

steelmaker83 said:There is absolutely zero hope for Sebastian Vettel. He first has to prove he can outpace his own teammate, and only then could he even begin to dream of challenging those two from Mercedes.

And let’s be honest, he’s currently slower than all three of them combined.

It is just pure, unadulterated futility.

By the way, since we have officially moved on from that topic, I wonder, how many anomalies did you happen to notice during this particular race?

But really, you, I, and even Tibi all know deep down that Vettel would have snatched the victory if he hadn't gotten stuck behind Nico Hülkenberg. After all, wasn't the German ahead of the Australian during qualifying...

steelmaker83 said:what goes around comes around

karma's a total bitch😂

Joshua Hill19 said:sorry for jumping into what looks like a pretty interesting debate here...

does anyone happen to have a link to that clip where Jenson Button overtakes two or three cars on the final lap?

thanks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2bLIgJDNxE

Robert Cox46 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2bLIgJDNxE

Having sat through that footage, I find myself somewhat perplexed by Alonso's specific commentary, where he remarked, "Jenson Button took the opportunity at the end with one of his banzai moves to gain two places."

http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/1822...gh-for-Ferrari

If we are truly going to label someone's driving style as "banzai," shouldn't we be looking directly at Alonso instead?

Robert Cox46 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2bLIgJDNxE

Absolutely 🙏 😂

steelmaker83 said:I find it strange that you, among the more intelligent members of this forum, are still pushing the narrative about how Fernando Alonso was just hunting for points at the end of 2012. Why cling to that?

What kind of paradigm are you even talking about?

steelmaker83 said:That’s just pure nonsense. It’s nothing more than a display of superficiality and lack of intellect—honestly, it's just as bad as that whole mess we saw during the discussion about the Monaco GP.

Arguments, right? Or not? Ad hominem attacks. Really?

stormybadger8 said:Where exactly was Lewis Hamilton during those 2010 and 2012 seasons? With all that raw speed he possesses, how did he manage to go missing like that?
Looking back at the 2012 season... there were times when he clearly had the fastest car on the grid. Not just once, either. More than once.

He had the fastest car for a moment there, sure. But for the overall win? Not a chance.

stormybadger8 said:Sure, it’s definitely more exciting to watch. But let's be real—that cautious, calculated approach from Alonso paid off way more than Hamilton's "win at all costs" mentality. Is it worth the risk? Maybe not. But he plays it smart.

That’s the whole point. Alonso's approach just didn't pay off.

It’s simple. You either win, or you lose. There is no middle ground.

Are you Keke Rosberg? Is that the trick? Only your favorites end up broken or dead on track, yet somehow you walk away with a championship after just one single win?

The Best F1 driver? Asks:
Just look at what the stats show from the start of 2007 through today...
Hamilton has 26 wins and 22 DNFs... almost like he’s breaking even, isn't he? 😁
Nico Rosberg: five wins and seventeen DNFs... Just how does that happen?

No matter how you look at it, Lewis Hamilton was always the one driving the faster, more expensive cars. It stands to reason they should have been more reliable too, not less...

I don't see the point.

stormybadger8 said:Everything you're saying holds up, and I agree. But then there's that ridiculous final race...
If Hamilton—who is basically a guaranteed win—had just sat that race out, wouldn't we be sitting here arguing that Rosberg should have had four or five wins and Hamilton ten, yet Rosberg would still be the champion?

We'll see.

It seems there's this general consensus that Hamilton is mentally unstable and a choker.
In reality, it was Rosberg who cracked during that last race and the one before it.

Jason Campbell70 said:Either you're Keke Rosberg—where the only title contenders end up broken or dead, leaving you to snatch the championship with a single win—or you're just lucky.

Looking at the competition, only Pironi got injured, and only Villeneuve died (let's be real about Palettia, even if he’d survived, he wouldn't have mattered)—"

All the other title contenders made it to the end of the season in one piece.

That would be: Nelson Piquet, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Michele Alboreto, and René Arnoux.

The "problem" with the 1982 season wasn't Villeneuve and Pironi. The actual "problem" was that Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, Williams, Brabham, and even Tyrrell were all actually competitive.

Early on, Prost was dominating in the Renault. Honestly, Prost is the biggest loser of that year because he should've walked away with the title. The Renault was a better car than the Ferrari. Sadly, back in '82, Prost was probably more interested in Larrousse's wife than driving his car. So yeah, Renault was better than Ferrari. Just slightly, but still. All the atmospheric cars were right there in the mix. McLaren and Williams were the top tier, followed by Tyrrell and the Brabham running the Ford atmospheric engines, while the ones using the BMW turbo were actually faster than both McLaren and Williams. If I had to rank them, it'd look like this:

1) Renault
2) Ferrari
3) McLaren - Ford
4) Brabham - BMW
5) Williams - Ford
6) Brabham - Ford
7) Tyrrell - Ford

Every single one of those cars won a race in 1982, plus the Lotus—but I'm ignoring them since they weren't even remotely competitive that year.

Beyond that, nobody won more than two races that season. That's an anomaly. No other season has ever seen such a massive spread of winners. Never. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Villeneuve's death—since he was never world champion material anyway—or Pironi's broken legs.

It was about having seven competitive teams—all of whom (along with Lotus) took turns winning throughout 1982.

Rosberg didn't miss out on the title because Villeneuve and Pironi crashed; he missed it because he simply scored the most points.

And get this—if Villeneuve and Pironi had both finished the season unscathed, neither of them would have been champion.

It would've been either Prost or Rosberg.

Also, don't let Pironi's 39 points fool you—in a hypothetical scenario where Villeneuve lives (and Pironi is whole), Villeneuve would've easily grabbed at least 10 of those points.

That puts Pironi at 29 + 11 (which he would've picked up after Hockenheim) = 40.

ruggedhawk20 said:Among the contenders, only Pironi suffered an injury, and Villeneuve was the only one who tragically lost his life (we can safely ignore Palettia, because even if he had survived, he wouldn't have been a factor)

All the other title contenders made it to the end of the season healthy and sound.

That would be: Piquet, Lauda, Prost, Watson, Alboreto, and Arnoux.

The real "problem" with the 1982 season wasn't Villeneuve or Pironi. The problem was that Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, Williams, Brabham, and even Tyrrell were all competitive.

At the start of the year, Prost dominated in the Renault. In fact, Prost is the biggest loser of that season because he was the one who should have taken the title. The Renault was a better car than the Ferrari. Unfortunately, during 1982, Prost seemed more interested in Larrousse's wife than in driving the car. So, the Renault was better than the Ferrari. Marginally, but still better. The atmospheric cars were all right there. McLaren and Williams were the best, followed closely by Tyrrell and the Brabham—which ran some races with a Ford atmospheric engine—while those running the BMW turbo were actually better than both the McLaren and the Williams. Overall, this is how I would rank them:

1) Renault
2) Ferrari
3) McLaren - Ford
4) Brabham - BMW
5) Williams - Ford
6) Brabham - Ford
7) Tyrrell - Ford

These were all cars that won during the 1982 season, plus Lotus—though I’m not counting them since, realistically, they weren't a competitive car in '82.

Furthermore, no one else won more than two races that season. It’s an anomaly. No other season has ever seen such a wide dispersion of winners as 1982. Never. And that has nothing to do with Villeneuve's death—who honestly never had what it takes to be a world champion anyway—nor does it have anything to do with Pironi's broken legs.

It comes down to those seven competitive teams—all of whom (along with Lotus) took turns winning throughout 1982.

Rosberg didn't miss out on the title because Villeneuve and Pironi were gone; he missed it because he simply scored the most points.

And believe me, even if Villeneuve and Pironi had both made it to the end of the season unscathed, neither would have been champion.

It would have been either Prost or Rosberg.

And don't let Pironi's 39 points fool you—in a hypothetical scenario where Villeneuve lives (and Pironi is whole), Villeneuve would have taken at least 10 of those 39 points.

So Pironi would finish that hypothetical season with 29 + 11 (which he would have picked up after Hockenheim) = 40.

I disagree.

In other words—I don't have the energy to explain things perfectly clearly, or to argue against something that is already arguing against itself.