#21 ·
I need to make this crystal clear. There’s going to be plenty of confusion tomorrow from fans who just don't quite grasp how this race works.
Fernando on the race, and his thoughts on the commentary.
F1 Canada 2012: Montreal GP Recap & Discussion
Started by stormybadger8 · · 👁 9 views · 82 replies
Participants
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Fernando on the race, and his thoughts on the commentary.
#22 ·
ruggedfox28 said:It’s funny how people can just twist a situation to fit whatever narrative they find convenient. Everyone has their own version of reality, usually tailored to make themselves look like the hero or the victim. 🤣 😁
I’m not looking to start a fight here, but let’s be real: Vettel actually made the smarter move. He knew he couldn't match Alonso's pace, and trying to force a confrontation would have been a disaster. If he had tried to push it, we could have ended up with a massive wreck and zero points for both drivers—exactly the kind of mess that happens when someone like Alonso decides to dig their heels in.
Even if you consider that attempt at resistance, it was basically the equivalent of a wounded kitten fighting back. He honestly didn't stand a chance because his tires were absolutely shredded. If anything, you could argue Alonso's move was actually "stupider" than Vettel's, given there wasn't even a theoretical path to success. All he really did was risk losing everything for nothing.
That’s a fair point, but it really boils down to one question: are we actually here to watch a race, or are we just watching people miss opportunities?
#23 ·
Jason Campbell70 said:Look, despite all those massive tactical faceplants from Ferrari, I actually have to give them credit for one absolutely legendary, masterstroke level play here.
I'm talking about letting Vettel through right before Casino Corner, thinking they could just use Ferrari's DRS to completely neutralize the advantage of Vettel's superior rubber.
At the end of the day, the move totally tanked, but man, props to whatever genius actually came up with that logic.
And if it was actually Alonso himself...🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Honestly, even I caught onto that one. It was a brilliant bit of thinking, really, it’s just such a shame the tires were already completely shot.
Ferrari seriously botched things by keeping Alonso out on track for that long. Even Fernando himself admitted that moving forward, the strategy would be centered around prioritizing whoever is closest in the championship standings—so after Monaco, that meant Webber and Vettel, which makes this whole decision look even more nonsensical 🤷
#25 ·
steelmaker83 said:Why on earth would anyone assume they couldn't catch Lewis Hamilton?! Ferrari was killing it on those supersofts during the first stint, actually looking better than McLaren. Why would they think they stood no chance?
I think they just overestimated how well they could manage tire degradation. They clearly thought the rubber would hold up longer, plus they were terrified that if Sebastian Vettel stayed out, he’d just blow it at the end and lose that spot entirely...
In the end, they blew it even harder... but hey, you live and learn, I guess...
The only real window was that one lap right after Lewis Hamilton pitted for his second stop.
But by the second lap on fresh tires during the third stint, Lewis Hamilton is clocking the fastest lap and cutting the Net distance down to about 10 seconds. Even if there was some doubt or hope before, it becomes crystal clear right then that catching Lewis Hamilton isn't happening.
That's what I was saying.
Now, regarding those supersofts that could have been a viable option for 15-20 laps—the question is, were they even fresh enough to actually hunt someone down?
I don't think so.
#26 ·
Can someone please dig up a chart or a graph showing the tire changes from the race in New York City?
I'm looking for the specifics—who pitted, what compounds they used, and on which lap the stops happened.
Thanks.
I'm looking for the specifics—who pitted, what compounds they used, and on which lap the stops happened.
Thanks.
#27 ·
Roger Wright94 said:The only real window was that first lap right after Lewis Hamilton's second pit stop.
But by the second lap on those fresh tires during the third stint, Lewis Hamilton is setting the fastest lap and cutting the Net distance down to about 10 seconds. If there were any doubts—or even a shred of hope—before, it becomes crystal clear right then that nobody is passing Lewis Hamilton.
That's what I was saying.
Now, regarding the supersoft which would have been a legit option for 15-20 laps, the question is: were there any fresh ones left (meaning actually usable for chasing and overtaking)?
I doubt it.
That’s exactly what would happen if we actually trusted our "expert" analysts on the internet.🤣
The gap was Fernando Alonso vs Sebastian Vettel at roughly 3 seconds, and then Sebastian Vettel vs Lewis Hamilton at about 10-11 seconds.
At that moment, Lewis Hamilton was actually about 14 seconds behind Fernando Alonso. These two clearly don't get that the gap shown on screen isn't between the leader and whoever happens to be in 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc.☕
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...ce-history.pdf
Take a look at the situation from lap 50 (when Lewis Hamilton was in the pits) onwards.😳
It wasn't until lap 56 that the gap to Fernando Alonso dropped to 10 seconds.☕
#28 ·
How many laps did Grosjean and Perez actually put in before they swapped rubber, versus how many rounds Alonso and Vettel managed after their stops?
#29 ·
stormybadger8 said:That would only be true if we actually trusted those "expert" commentators on TV🤣
The Net distance was about Alonso vs Vettel at 3 seconds, then Vettel vs Lewis Hamilton at around 10-11 seconds.
Basically, at that moment, Lewis Hamilton was trailing Alonso by roughly 14 seconds. What these two don't seem to grasp is that the gap on the screen wasn't just between the leader and 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc.☕
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...ce-history.pdf
Just look at the situation from lap 50 (when Lewis Hamilton pitted) onwards.😳
It wasn't until lap 56 that the gap to Alonso closed to 10 seconds.☕
What I'm stuck on is Alonso's pit stop in lap 51.
If he had gone in then, he probably would have come out right behind Lewis Hamilton, maybe ahead of Romain Grosjean. Even if Grosjean had been ahead, it wouldn't have mattered—he could've overtaken him easily.
A mistake, plain and simple.
They'll try to argue the tires still had decent life left. But we're talking 20 laps from the finish; that argument doesn't hold water with me.
Everyone knows how these tires work—once they fall off a cliff, they fall off hard, losing 3 to 5 seconds a lap. The people making the calls should know that better than anyone else.
You just can't gamble on the assumption that these tires will hold up for another 20 laps after being pushed for 30 or 40.
#30 ·
Roger Wright94 said:I’m looking specifically at Alonso's pit call on lap 51.
If he had pitted then, he almost certainly would have rejoined behind Lewis Hamilton, but likely ahead of Romain Grosjean. Even if Grosjean had been in front, he wouldn't have been much of an obstacle since he would've been easy to overtake.
A mistake, plain and simple.
They’ll try to argue that the tires still had decent life left at that point. But we were 20 laps from the finish, so that argument holds zero water.
It’s a known fact with these compounds that once they hit the cliff, they fall off a cliff—we're talking 3 to 5 seconds per lap. The people making those calls in the garage should know that better than anyone else.
You just can't gamble on the assumption that these tires will hold up for another 20 laps after they've already put in 30 or 40.
They took a risk and it blew up in their faces—fine, I get that. That's acceptable enough.
What I don't get is why they didn't react when it became obvious nothing was happening and a disaster was looming. Red Bull would have done something. Why didn't they?!
No, let's just sit here and wait to see how badly this hits the fan instead...
#31 ·
darkmarlin16 said:How many laps did Grosjean and Perez run, versus how many Alonso and Vettel did after the tire swap?
Grosjean did 49, Alonso 51, and Vettel 47 on yellows.
Perez did 40 on yellows and 30 on softs during his first stint. 🤔
#32 ·
If they had just managed those tires better, maybe they wouldn't have been struggling from the very start until the wheels practically fell off at the end.
But hey, hindsight is twenty-twenty.
But hey, hindsight is twenty-twenty.
#33 ·
Roger Wright94 said:I’m looking at Alonso's pit stop on lap 51.
If he’d pitted then, he likely would've come out right behind Lewis Hamilton, probably ahead of Romain Grosjean. Honestly, even if Grosjean had been in front, he wouldn't have been much of an issue—easy enough to overtake.
Total mistake.
They’ll try to argue the tires still had decent grip back then. Please. That was 20 laps from the end; that excuse is dead on arrival.
Everyone knows how these tires work—once they fall off a cliff, they fall off hard (we're talking 3, 4, or 5 seconds per lap). The people making decisions there should know that better than I do.
You just can't gamble on the assumption that these tires will hold up for another 20 laps after already grinding through 30 or 40.
And honestly, Red Bull Racing makes zero sense here either. Vettel's tires completely gave up on lap 16 (went red), even though he’d run a 21-lap race simulation on those exact same tires with a full fuel load during practice.
I mean, it should have been blindingly obvious they’d crack early due to the heat.🙄
Beyond that, Red Bull Racing's strategy is just baffling. They struggle to make the softs last even 16 laps, and then their plan is to go for a stint where they intend to hammer away for 54 laps on the mediums.😵
Ferrari went with a 19/51 split, which actually sounds somewhat sane.
The folks over at Red Bull Racing clearly missed the mark. They should have gone for a 34-39 lap stint on mediums and then switched to the reds.
Especially since, if I remember qualifying correctly, they still had a fresh set of reds left.🤔
Sure, they probably wouldn't have snatched the win, but they definitely wouldn't have dropped four spots.😳
Here’s how it would have played out:
Alonso pits on lap 51—comes out behind Lewis Hamilton, Mark Webber, and Romain Grosjean, somewhere around Felipe Massa, and almost certainly ahead of Nico Rosberg.
Same deal with Vettel (though with his slightly worse pit stop, he might've ended up behind Rosberg, which would've been a straight-up disaster).
After that, the stops happened like this:
Webber on lap 52, Massa on lap 58.
It looks to me like that was the core issue. It seems they got caught up trying to make sure Webber could hold up Alonso (so they waited), while Massa was busy holding up Vettel (so Red Bull Racing waited for him to pit too).😳
Then once Webber finally pitted, they waited for Vettel to go first, hoping Massa would hold him up on track so Alonso could get his shot.
It's not like Ferrari is stupid; they just played cat and mouse with themselves and ended up losing it for everyone involved.
#34 ·
You can really see how much that bad start hurt him once he got stuck behind Stay yesterday, which ended up costing Romain quite a bit. As soon as the driver from Scotland pitted on lap 13, Romain started finding an extra second or two per lap—but even then, those first thirteen laps meant he dropped nearly fifteen seconds on Lewis Hamilton.
It wasn't even a case of Lewis fighting off Vettel or Alonso for the win yesterday; he was really just holding off Grosjean.
It wasn't even a case of Lewis fighting off Vettel or Alonso for the win yesterday; he was really just holding off Grosjean.
#35 ·
I wonder if anyone might happen to have a link handy where I could watch a replay of the race?
#36 ·
steelmaker83 said:That’s true, but the real question is... do we actually want to watch a race, or just a parade of people missing turns?
Look, this is just another case of what we want as fans versus what they actually care about. Let's be real here—their top priority isn't entertainment, it's just stacking up points and winning at any cost.
#37 ·
shadowtinker29 said:You don't really see how much that bad start hurt him until you realize he was stuck behind Stay, which cost Grosjean yesterday. As soon as the driver from Scotland pitted on lap 13, Romain picked up a second or two per lap, but those first thirteen laps meant he dropped nearly fifteen seconds compared to Hamilton.
Lewis wasn't actually fighting Vettel or Alonso for the win yesterday—he was fighting Grosjean.
Look, if Vettel had hit the pits somewhere between laps 43 and 51 (that's when the gap to Hamilton started growing in lap 44), I'm not sure Hamilton wouldn't have ended up battling both him and Alonso for the top spot.
In that scenario, all three would've likely piled into the pits at once, making it a long shot for Grosjean and Perez to even sniff a podium.
With that kind of strategy, we would've seen a total dogfight between Alonso, Vettel, and Hamilton.😉
Instead, we got this DRS/Goodyear nonsense.
Vettel clocked a 1:15.752 on the last lap.
fast Grosjean's best was 1:17.264 back on lap 57.😳
And get this: Vettel wasn't faster than Alonso or Hamilton during the race (at least, that's what we know).
That means Alonso could've been caught if he'd gone for fresh rubber, and obviously, Hamilton dialed back his pace once he saw no one was breathing down his neck.
So, it’s not quite black and white.
The big mess was caused by the strategists, that fear of Massa (Red Bull) and Webber (Ferrari), and everyone just waiting on each other.
If Vettel had pitted, you can bet Ferrari would've followed suit (and vice versa if Alonso went in), and damn right Hamilton would've shadowed them too.
#38 ·
stormybadger8 said:If Vettel had ducked into the pits, you can bet your life Ferrari would've followed suit. Same goes for Alonso—if he’d gone in, they would've jumped on that too. And honestly? I'm pretty sure Lewis Hamilton would have been right there behind them.
Like I said before. Since they didn't have the guts to make a move on their own earlier, they were forced to play catch-up with Lewis Hamilton. Every single one of them. They had no choice.
stormybadger8 said:It felt like a total mess. My gut tells me they were terrified that Mark Webber might end up blocking Alonso, so they held him back. Meanwhile, Felipe Massa was just sitting there stalling Sebastian Vettel, which left Red Bull Racing hanging while they waited on his pit stop too.
Once Webber headed to the pits, what else were they waiting for? They couldn't just sit there watching Vettel go first, only to have Massa block him on the track before Alonso could even make a move.
It makes sense on paper, but I'm not buying it. Honestly, I think they were just terrified of each other—Alonso and Vettel.
Second of all, what kind of stalling are we talking about here? This isn't Abu Dhabi or Monaco. You just need to be two or three tenths faster per lap around here; then the tech systems will handle the overtaking for you.
#39 ·
stormybadger8 said:Honestly, if Vettel had pitted somewhere between laps 43 and 51—since that's when his gap to Hamilton started blowing out in lap 44—I’m not so sure Hamilton wouldn't have been fighting both him and Alonso for the win.
In that scenario, those three would've almost certainly pitted in a tight group, which means Grosjean and Perez probably wouldn't have even stood a chance at getting on the podium.
With that kind of strategy, we would've seen a total dogfight between Alonso, Vettel, and Hamilton.😉
Instead, what we got was this whole mess involving DRS and the Goodyear tires.
Vettel clocked a 1:15.752 on the final lap.
The fastest Grosjean did was a 1:17.264 back in lap 57.😳
And get this—Vettel wasn't actually faster than Alonso or Hamilton during the race (at least, that's what we know).
That tells me Alonso could have definitely been pressured if he'd gone for fresh rubber, and clearly, Hamilton dialed back his pace once he saw the guys behind him weren't a threat.
So, it's definitely not all black and white.
The real headache came from the strategists—that hesitation caused by fearing Felipe Massa (Red Bull Racing) and Mark Webber (Ferrari)—and everyone just waiting on each other.
But if Vettel had pitted, you can bet Ferrari would've mirrored him (and the same goes if Alonso went in), and I'm pretty sure Hamilton would've followed suit too.
Even with DRS active, Red Bull Racing was slower than Lotus on the straights. So, how exactly were you picturing Vettel passing Grosjean? The same logic applies to Alonso.
And if Vettel had pitted 20 or more laps earlier, you can kiss those super softs goodbye. He would've been stuck with a set that had over ten laps on them from qualifying, so those Red Bull Racing tires would've absolutely disintegrated before the end.
No matter how you crunch the laps or the combinations, those two would've come back out on track right behind Grosjean. Even Hamilton only managed to come out just a second ahead.
#40 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Second of all, what kind of stalling are we talking about? This isn't Abu Dhabi or Monaco. Out here, if you can manage to be two or three tenths faster per lap, the tech systems will handle the overtaking for you.
That’s just not accurate. Everything really comes down to how the car is set up.
Three tenths faster, sure, but only on the key part of the track.
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