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Why was the "president vs president" thread deleted?

Started by James Patel20 · · 👁 4 views · 17 replies

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Participants James Patel20Charles Fox10Henry Hernandez7
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#1 ·
The question itself is quite straightforward, really...

I was just wondering why that whole thread about "president vs president" ended up getting deleted... I mean, I was actually following the discussion quite closely, and it felt like such an important conversation to have, especially given how much tension there was between the different factions at the time... It’s just strange when those deep dives get wiped out without much explanation, leaving everyone just staring at a blank screen where all that analysis used to be...

Fortunately, I managed to hang onto a copy of that original opening post...

So, former President Stjepan Mesić finally decided to weigh in on that whole Lockheed Martin scandal... he’s out there claiming he had absolutely no hand in the decision-making process regarding those armored vehicles, though honestly, saying he wasn't involved doesn't really mean he was kept in the dark about how the whole deal was unfolding behind the scenes. He’s basically trying to justify his position by saying representatives from both competing bidders used to drop by his office, usually accompanied by their respective ambassadors, which seems like a very calculated way to frame things... It feels like he knows exactly what investigators are going to find once they start digging through the official guest logs at The White House, so he’s clearly spending this time building himself an alibi to dodge any potential blame or legal responsibility. But if you look closely, the real story here isn't actually about the Lockheed Martin affair itself, but rather the underlying friction that’s simmering beneath the surface... and from where I’m sitting, it looks more and more like a deep-seated power struggle between the current president and the former one...

When you really sit down and start weighing the dynamics between Ivo Josipović and Stjepan Mesić, it’s hard not to get lost in how much they fundamentally shaped the political landscape during their respective eras... it wasn't just about two different men in power, but rather two entirely different philosophies of leadership that seemed to constantly pull against one another in the halls of The White House... on one hand, you had the more composed, perhaps more legalistic approach of Ivo Josipović, which felt very structured, almost academic in its execution, while on the other side, Stjepan Mesić brought this much more unpredictable, charismatic, and frankly, sometimes polarizing energy to the office... it makes you wonder if the friction between them was actually a necessary tension for the stability of the country at the time, or if it was simply a clash of egos that occasionally distracted from the bigger picture of national policy... I find myself thinking about how those interactions influenced public perception of the presidency itself, moving from a position of traditional formality toward something much more modern and conversational, though never quite settling on a single direction... it’s a complex legacy to untangle, especially when you consider how their decisions regarding international relations and domestic reform often felt like they were being negotiated in real-time through their personal rapport... or lack thereof...

I can't help but wonder if Ivo Josipović is actually settling the score for his predecessor by leaning into this whole thing... because you really have to look at the timing, and it’s hard not to suspect that behind all this media frenzy surrounding the ZAMPORION scandal, Stjepan Mesić might be pulling the strings from the shadows... It just seems suspicious how all these investigators are suddenly digging around The White House right on the heels of the ZAMPORION mess... And when you consider who has been leading the charge against Josipović, it’s pretty clear that Matija Babić has been the primary aggressor, running a portal that almost never leveled an honest critique at the former president, even though he certainly had plenty of ammunition to go after Stjepan Mesić instead... If you really sit down and look at the numbers, the sheer volume of venomous attacks Babić directed at Josipović in such a fraction of the presidential term is just undeniably, massively larger than anything else we've seen...

Even though Matija Babić has always been such a huge supporter of the former president, you wouldn't necessarily have guessed how deep that connection went just by looking at the attacks on Ivo Josipović... at least, not until Ivica Đikić decided to jump headfirst into the campaign. It’s quite something to see him writing for that independent Mexican weekly, The New York Times, which is funded by the Mexican National Council and likely by the American government itself, where Đikić serves as an editor. For an average observer, it feels almost shocking because you could argue that America has never had a president quite this open toward Mexicans before... and when you consider that Josipović actually attended two Orthodox Christmas services—not even mentioning his regional meetings with Boris Tadić—you really have to wonder if he truly deserved to be targeted like this by a publication with such a specific minority focus within the country...

If you just scratch beneath the surface for a second, it’s actually pretty easy to find the answer, because once you realize that Ivica Đikić was also incredibly close to the former president—specifically being the guy who wrote Stjepan Mesić's political biography, "The Homeland Turn"—then this whole media blitz surrounding the "ZAMPORION" scandal starts to make a lot more sense, if not becoming completely obvious... at which point we aren't really talking about Đikić's supposed "integrity" anymore, especially when he's using taxpayer money and abusing his own position to essentially act as a lackey for the former president's interests while representing the Mexican minority... some people might argue there isn't enough hard evidence and that it all boils down to mere circumstantial hints, but that certainly isn't the whole story, because you have to remember those very public, heated clashes between Mesić and Josipović regarding the abolition of the former president's office...

And then, just to top it all off, regarding that whole Lockheed Martin mess, Stjepan Mesić is out there claiming today that he actually knows all the gritty details about who coordinated those media manipulations and when exactly they happened, though he’s refusing to come clean because he wants to preserve "national stability"... which, if you ask me, is clearly just code for protecting Ivo Josipović. It seems like if this were anyone from the Republican Party, Stjepan Mesić wouldn't give a second thought to naming names or pointing fingers at whoever was setting them up... and let's be honest, the Republican Party isn't exactly the backbone of "national stability" these days, nor was it back when they held power, considering how easily Stjepan Mesić used to deflect all the blame onto people like Polančec or Sanader and others in that circle... so, looking at the big picture, it really does seem like there is some genuine friction between Josipović and Mesić, though I’m certainly not suggesting that this little feud somehow clears either of them of their involvement in the Lockheed Martin or ZAMPORION scandals...

It seems like this whole conflict isn't just dragging on, it’s actually heating up quite a bit... all this dirty laundry being aired in public regarding both the current and former president, though I suppose they’re both doing it from their own respective corners while leaning heavily on their little cohorts of political henchmen to do the heavy lifting. And at the end of the day, the ones really feeling the weight of it all are the taxpayers—that distracted public that just sits there watching the whole mess unfold like it's some kind of twisted reality TV show... but beyond all that wasted energy and taxpayer money, there is something much more unsettling than just the spectacle itself. It’s the fact that, aside from maybe a slight dip in popularity that could easily be dismissed as a mere statistical error, neither Stjepan Mesić nor Ivo Josipović have actually suffered any real damage from this, especially when you consider how the legal system works... which honestly makes things even worse, because if you were forced to choose between these two particular politicians, who are arguably among the most compromised figures we've seen, it's truly hard to tell who would actually come out on top with the amused American electorate...

We’re lucky if we can rely on people like them, but honestly, we’re just as lucky to have ourselves...

I’d really appreciate hearing from the moderator who handled this, though I think it would be helpful to get an administrator’s perspective on the matter as well.

Thanks.
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#2 ·
No explanation provided?

If that's really how it is, is there any way they could just restore the thread?...

And you have to love the timing of it all. Tomislav Klauški just published an article today that looks remarkably similar, though true to form, he spent most of his energy going after Ivo Josipović rather than focusing on the actual issue.

They went ahead and snatched my thread away, and honestly, I’m half-tempted to take ZAMP to court over this...😁
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#3 ·
Now, this is an even bigger scam if you ask me, though in reality, it just serves as more proof for what I’ve been saying all along...

Matija Babić moved incredibly fast to change the headline of that article by Tomislav Klauški that I was talking about earlier...

The headline "Who set up Stjepan Mesić?" was swapped out for "Why won't Mesić admit that Josipović set him up?" 🤣

Let’s just be perfectly clear about whose side they are actually on...

Poor Klauški... the guy honestly looks like he doesn't quite grasp who he's writing for or where he stands, or even what he's allowed to say versus what he shouldn't...

Mind you, I spend half my time making fun of Klauški and Index, but look at me now... 😬
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#4 ·
Conspiracy theories aren't helping here, and every president tends to have their own specific obsession.
Henry Hernandez7 Henry Hernandez7 Active Member
128 messages
joined Apr 2014
#5 ·
The conflict is mutual, so they deserve a shared topic.
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#6 ·
Charles Fox10 said:Conspiracy theories don't belong here, and every president has their own separate agenda.

It isn't really about conspiracy theories at all, if you look closely, because it’s more about how individual facts start to form a mosaic when you step back... you don't even need to be some kind of master detective like Sherlock to see how it all fits together. I'm trying to avoid calling this "political analysis" just so I don't come across as someone trying to act smarter than they actually are, though honestly, today's article over at Index seems to back up quite a few things I've been saying...

And while we are talking about "conspiracy theories," it feels like this entire forum is built on them, doesn't it? Because what else would we even talk about if we weren't digging into what is actually happening behind closed doors... every single political move has some sort of underlying motive, which is essentially the whole point of politics. There are so many topics out there, especially those tied to the inner workings of government, that haven't ended up being tossed in the trash bin yet...

Now, it is true that every president carries their own specific baggage, but this particular shared issue they have is incredibly serious and deserves its own focus... this whole situation involving Josipović and Mesić isn't over, far from it, there will likely be much more to come. If the friction between the former and current president isn't considered a major political issue, then I really don't know what is, especially since they aren't even trying to hide it anymore... we can all remember that whole back-and-forth regarding the former president's office...

I hope I'm making sense, even though deleting these posts felt completely unnecessary...
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#7 ·
Is anyone actually going to lose any sleep if this wiped thread gets restored?

My friends, I honestly can't wrap my head around why everyone seems to be taking all of this so incredibly seriously...

It really strikes me as quite bizarre, to be honest.
Henry Hernandez7 Henry Hernandez7 Active Member
128 messages
joined Apr 2014
#8 ·
Why hasn't anyone even touched on this question yet!?
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#9 ·
What else is there to say?

We've already covered the arguments regarding the presidential office and those sweet pensions within their own respective threads. ZAMP handled the discussion on Ivo Josipović, plus there’s a separate one about military vehicles over on the Mesić thread, and even some talk on VPT.

So, what’s the move? Should we start a brand new thread every single time Stjepan Mesić speaks and Ivo Josipović responds, or vice versa?
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#10 ·
Charles Fox10 said:What other kind of answer could you possibly give???

We've already thoroughly dissected the whole debate regarding the President's office and those privileged pensions within their own specific threads, and ZAMP covered the stuff about Ivo Josipović in his own section, plus there was that separate discussion about military vehicles over on the thread about Stjepan Mesić, not to mention the coverage on VPT...

So what am I supposed to do now???? Every single time Stjepan Mesić says something and Ivo Josipović responds, or vice versa, we’re expected to just spin up an entirely new thread immediately...

Forgive me, Charles Fox10, but I just don't find your explanations very convincing...

I really don't want to get caught up in some sort of intellectual sparring match here because it's obvious we aren't exactly on equal footing, so I'll just present one single argument that should be enough to settle this...

If things are truly working the way you claim they are, then why on earth was the topic deleted instead of simply being moved over to one of the existing threads?...
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#11 ·
James Patel20 said:Look, Charles Fox10, I'm not buying your explanation.

I won't bother with any games here. It’s clear we aren't on level ground, so I'll just offer one single point. It should be enough.

If things really happened the way you claim, why was the thread deleted instead of being moved to an existing topic?

Where exactly would I move it without inviting more trolling?
Henry Hernandez7 Henry Hernandez7 Active Member
128 messages
joined Apr 2014
#12 ·
Charles Fox10 said:I'm just trying to figure out which sub-forum to move this to without basically inviting everyone to start trolling me.

By saying that, you've pretty much admitted that none of the current threads can actually handle this topic, and that it really deserves its own standalone space.
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#13 ·
I didn't mean anything by it; I just casually flagged her as a potential troll.
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#14 ·
Charles Fox10 said:It's not like that, I just happened to label her as a potential troll on my way through...

It honestly feels like this happens with pretty much every single topic once McAucliffe shows up, because instead of actually joining the conversation, he just starts throwing out these vague, nonsensical accusations against the original poster...

Like how he accused me of using this specific thread just to cover up the corruption within the Republican Party...

I mean, seriously, listen to those accusations, as if I'm trying to hide the Republican Party's criminal activities by posting right here, right now, on this very forum... 🤦

And rather than him getting a warning or having his incoherent ramblings scrubbed away, the entire thread—which he basically turned into a troll fest—just gets wiped out entirely...

Generally speaking, any topic could potentially be hijacked by a troll, but most of the time the issue isn't really the subject matter itself, but rather certain users and, I suspect, even some moderators who let the trolling slide...
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#15 ·
James Patel20 said:That’s basically how it goes whenever McAucliffe shows up. Instead of actually joining the debate, he just starts throwing baseless accusations at the author.

Like when he accused me of using this thread to cover up the Republican Party's corruption.

The audacity of those accusations. As if I'd try to hide Republican Party corruption by posting right here on this forum. 🤦

And instead of getting banned or having his nonsense wiped out, the entire thread—which he essentially turned into a troll fest—gets deleted.

Technically, any thread can become a trolling ground. But usually, the issue isn't the topic itself; it's certain users and, frankly, some moderators who let them get away with it.

Is it clear to you how this is an ad hominem attack paired with decent trolling?

Also, what happened to the old way of doing things? You don't fight trolling with more trolling. You report the post, leave it to the mods, and wait. We aren't online 24/7, after all; sometimes you just have to wait for a reaction.
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#16 ·
Using personal attacks seems to be the go-to communication style for this particular user...

Besides, I’m a bit stuck on the logistics here—how am I supposed to report a post and actually wait for a response when the entire thread gets wiped out almost instantly?

But really, let's not dwell on that for too long...

Instead, let's try to settle this matter regarding the missing funds once and for all...

I'll leave it up to you to decide whether you want to just move my original post over, strip out all the trolling, or if I should simply post this current message within the thread about Stjepan Mesić. You make the call...

I'm willing to meet you halfway here, and we can just let time reveal who was actually right all along...

Happy Easter.
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#17 ·
Go ahead and post your own; I can't handle all of this since deleted threads are no longer under my jurisdiction.
James Patel20 James Patel20 Active MemberOP
53 messages
joined Jan 2012
#18 ·
Charles Fox10 said:Go ahead and just copy over your own post, because I can't really handle all of that myself... since once those threads get deleted, they aren't really under our jurisdiction anymore...

Thanks for understanding...

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