Valencia Grand Prix - June 26, 2011

Roger Wright94 said:He definitely performed better than someone like Luca Badoer or Giancarlo Fisichella might have... but even then, it just wasn't enough. We're talking about a handful of points lost over five or six races. All I know for sure is that in one of them, he was right on the edge of taking second place from Eddie Irvine.😁.

Actually, he really should have taken the win at the '99 German Grand Prix—he had such a stellar race going... except his team radioed him at the end telling him to back off and let Eddie Irvine through.

It wasn't even a case of him nearly getting second; he actually dominated Eddie Irvine in that race... he was so much faster that Eddie actually handed him the trophy on the podium afterward.

Roger Wright94 said:He definitely performed better than maybe Luca Badoer or Giancarlo Fisichella, but honestly, it still wasn't enough. We're talking about a handful of points spread out over five or six races. All I know for sure is there was one race where he almost finished right behind Eddie Irvine 😁.

They probably had Rubens Barrichello signed by then; I can't quite recall the exact timing. Because if this guy truly had that much potential, how on earth did he miss out on a seat in the main squad back in 2000?

Mika Salo was a genius when he was at Ferrari. If he’d actually stayed, who knows which team would have "bought" him for a season, and who knows what kind of success he might have planted there.

And why didn't Mika Salo, given all that talent, get into Ferrari in 2000 instead of Rubens Barrichello? That seems obvious even to someone who isn't paying attention—Mika Salo wasn't some puppet driver they could just control. 😉

Austin Evans said:Mika Salo was actually brilliant during his time at Ferrari. If he’d stuck around, who knows which season someone might have "bought out" his contract... there's no telling what kind of success he could have brought to the team.

Don't go overboard here

Salo was just an average driver—nothing more, nothing less...

Austin Evans said:And if Mika Salo had such massive potential, why didn't he move into that full-time Ferrari seat in 2000 instead of Barrichello? It seems pretty obvious to anyone watching—Mika Salo wasn't some puppet driver. 😉

Mika Salo was absolutely a puppet driver...

That's exactly why they picked him up at Ferrari to fill in for Schumacher—to be Ferrari's little puppet. Even back at Hockenheim in '99, when he moved aside for Irvine... they brought him in specifically to play that role, and honestly, that's exactly what he did.

Even if he had stayed with Ferrari through 2000, he would've still been a puppet—just a number two driver... standing next to Schumacher, he wouldn't have stood a chance...

Joshua Rivera56 said:By picking Alonso, Ferrari basically walked straight into a trap because they built everything around him. The team let his personal agenda carry as much weight as the team's own goals, which was a massive mistake. Honestly, trying to pin this on Massa is just a pathetic excuse for why both Alonso and Ferrari have failed so hard.

I think you're overthinking this—both with the whole "magic circle" thing and the drivers' interests.
Who’s actually to blame for Ferrari’s mess? You? How did you even come up with that?
If you want to know why Massin failed—and let’s be real, he did—it all comes down to Massa. That's the whole story. Period.

Joshua Rivera56 said:Regarding that second seat at Ferrari... honestly, it feels pretty obvious that by signing Alonso, they’ve basically backed themselves into a corner when it comes to picking a teammate. I don't think Massa is sticking around just because Alonso wants him there. It's more likely he's staying because Alonso isn't exactly thrilled about anyone else sitting in that other cockpit. There's a massive difference between those two scenarios.

You might be right, and I’ll give you that much, but personally? I'm not buying it.
People are overestimating how much Ferrari bends the knee to Alonso. Sure, some things have definitely been pivoted to favor him—it would be pretty idiotic if they weren't—but it’s nowhere near as extreme as you're making it out to be.
Michael Schumacher was the only true king of the track and everything else at Ferrari—and honestly, everywhere else too. What he did was one of a kind. You just can't replicate that.
Alonso’s got the talent, he just needs to actually find his way back to the podium.
But look, Vettel is actually finding his rhythm again. He's on a serious roll.

cosmichawk12 said:Mika Salo was nothing more than a puppet driver

That’s exactly why they brought him into Ferrari to sub in for Schumacher—just to have a puppet for the team to pull the strings on. That’s also why he was swapped in for Irvine at the end of Hockenheim in '99; they needed someone to play the part, and from what I saw, that's pretty much all he did.

Even if he had stuck around with Ferrari through 2000, he still would’ve been a puppet, just a permanent number two driver. Standing next to Schumacher, he never stood a chance.

Look, while Salo was filling in for Schumacher, he was simply doing exactly what the crew asked of him. Besides, by the middle (or maybe the second half) of the season, you really couldn't expect him to just swoop in and snatch a championship for Ferrari in a handful of races. At the same time, what kind of team would actually let you borrow a driver from another outfit (without just using their own test driver to cover an injury) and then let that guy win instead of the driver who’s been "baked in" "season after season"?

As for me being harsh on Salo, I don't think I am.
I honestly believe he could have been way more than just an average driver if he’d been given a shot with a top-tier team. And if you look at his performance at Ferrari that year, it actually backs that up, doesn't it? After a very brief adjustment period, he wasn't just keeping pace with Irvine—he was absolutely dismantling him. Personally, I think even Schumacher would have had a hard time dealing with him (after all, even Schumacher struggled with Barrichello from time to time, and in my book, Barrichello is still a step below Salo).

Since we're talking about the Americans from the north...

Back in the day, Jean Todt was actually trying to pull Kimi into Ferrari well before the 2007 season kicked off.

I can't quite wrap my head around whether that was specifically back in 2001 or not.
But in the end, Kimi ended up heading over to McLaren instead, just like everyone remembers.

Joshua Doyle11 said:Since we’re talking about those guys from Northern Europe...

A while back, Jean Todt was actually looking to bring Kimi over to Ferrari—well before 2007.

I can't quite wrap my head around whether it was specifically 2001... it's a bit fuzzy.
In the end, though, Kimi ended up heading over to McLaren instead.

If I recall correctly, it was late 2001—that season Kimi was driving for Sauber, which used Ferrari engines, so everyone was constantly linking him to the Italian team...

Also, I think Todt mentioned at the end of 2004 that he'd love to see Kimi in a Ferrari seat—which, well, eventually happened three years later.

Roger Wright94 said:This is a bit of a tangent. I’m not trying to make excuses for the results. I’m talking about potential scenarios for improvement.
The car definitely needs work if they want to be competitive with Red Bull.
Alonso is a great find, and I’m pretty sure nobody else in his position would have delivered better results—not last year, and not this year. That's just my take.

Massa needs (or needed) the best or second-best car on the grid to actually do anything. So, what good is having a driver like that?
I like him as a person, but his string of bad results is just getting too long and has pushed past my limit of tolerance. This business is too expensive to keep putting up with this.

That’s rational, managerial thinking. Sure, it sounds fine in theory.
Personally, I’d prefer a more balanced, competitive lineup—basically, someone closer to Alonso's level. Racing is one of those things where the best person doesn't always win. Often, it comes down to a whole bunch of external factors, both on and off the track.
Well, that’s where my sympathy for Massa ends. I honestly don't see any scenario or set of circumstances where he manages to pull off a win. It seems to be the opposite. No matter the situation, he consistently struggles and loses. Too consistently. Treating it otherwise would just be being pessimistic.
How does Button even win a race?

If Massa stays through 2012, it’ll probably only be because that's what Alonso wants. I wouldn't love it, but he’s earned that kind of treatment.

I agree 👍

stormybadger8 said:That’s all well and good, but I don't see the logic in a team keeping a driver who is this mediocre. Besides, that message can only really be sent once or twice a year. It used to be that Massa had to be told to let Alonso pass when he was being lapped, rather than Massa just letting him by.🤣

I think it’s high time they replaced him with someone better.😳
And as for letting him through in those situations, there are plenty of subtler ways to slot him behind Alonso. It isn't rocket science. 😬

I’m also not sure why the team finds value in such a poor driver, but apparently, Ferrari’s logic is their own little secret. 🤷

I definitely agree it's time to swap him out for someone stronger, but I think Ferrari has some serious issues when it comes to picking a second driver. Their strategy for winning titles is pretty well known—focus entirely on one lead driver, then find a second driver who is good enough to chip in points and protect the leader while playing nice with the team politics. That’s likely why Massa is still there, and I guess he’ll stick around until his contract ends in 2012, but that’s just how I see it.🤷

steelmaker83 said:Alonso was basically lined up to take over when Kubica arrived at Ferrari, but everything fell apart after that disaster...

True, there were even rumors he signed some kind of preliminary deal with Ferrari, though by late last year he mentioned nothing was set in stone—especially since Massa is locked in through 2012. Personally, I’d love to see him in a Ferrari, but pairing him with Alonso probably wouldn't work for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I don't think Kubica is the type to play second fiddle given how talented he is 😁 but we'll just have to wait and see what happens if he ever makes it back to F1 😉

steelmaker83 said:Alonso was basically pulling strings to get Kubica into Ferrari, it was practically a done deal until all that absolute bullshit happened.....

Look, Alonso is a total jerk, but I don't buy for a second that he’d actually go out of his way to bring some massive competition into his own garage... I seriously doubt it ever happened like that😁

Roger Wright94 said:I think you’re overreacting, both with this whole conspiracy theory thing and regarding driver favoritism.
Who exactly is blaming Massa for Ferrari's failures? Where are you even getting that from?
The biggest reason for Massin's failure—and that's a fact—is Massa himself. Period.

I guess it’s possible you might have a point (I'll give you that), but personally, I just don't buy it.
People definitely overestimate how much Ferrari caters to Alonso. Sure, certain things are probably tilted in his direction (it would be incredibly stupid if they weren't), but it's nowhere near as extreme as you're making it out to be.
The only true absolute ruler of the universe at Ferrari (and beyond) was Michael Schumacher. That kind of dominance is unrepeatable.
Alonso has the momentum, but he still needs to deliver results.
On the other hand, Vettel is looking really promising.

I could just write "Fernando is faster than you..." and remind you of the 2007 season with McLaren.

As for everything else, where exactly did I say that Massa is responsible for Alonso's or Ferrari's results? When I said "blaming Massa for anything" is just cosmetic, I meant it doesn't change the reality of Ferrari's and Alonso's poor standing. What I was actually referring to was your comment about the "damage" Massa causes within the context of the team.

Fernando Alonso is an absolute God within this team. If you take a quick look at who was running Ferrari during the Schumacher era (Brawn, Todt, Byrne, Martinelli) versus who is there today... well, you only need to listen to the tone of voice on the team radio to realize exactly where everyone stands in the hierarchy. Alonso is untouchable; the only person who could even attempt to push back against him is Montezemolo.

hollowgull5 said:Alonso is a jerk, sure, but I highly doubt he’d actually bring on more competition for himself within his own team. Like, yeah, right. 😁

How did you manage to pack so much contradiction into just half a sentence?

Roger Wright94 said:How on earth did you manage to pack that much contradiction into such a tiny little sentence?

Man, I don't even see a line... 🤔

Joshua Rivera56 said:Fernando Alonso is the absolute king of this team. If you just look at who was running Ferrari back during the Schumacher era (Brawn, Todt, Byrne, Martinelli) compared to who’s there now... honestly, you only need to listen to his tone on the team radio to realize exactly where everyone stands. Alonso is untouchable; the only person who can actually push back against him is Montezemolo.

That’s just nonsense.
Did Alonso kick out Brawn, Todt, or Byrne?

And what's the big deal about how he sounds on the team radio?🤣
Is he threatening to take them all out or something?

Raymond Anderson4 said:You’re just talking nonsense.
Did Alonso kick out Brawn, Todt, or maybe Byrne? I can't quite remember the specifics, but I guess it was one of them.

And what on earth are we supposed to do about his voice coming through the team radio?🤣
What exactly are they afraid of? Are they worried someone’s going to jump them or what...?

And what exactly are you basing that conclusion on? That entire crew had moved on from Ferrari long before Alonso even arrived there. My comment was strictly about Clark's comparison to the Ferrari era back when Schumacher was running the show.

I mean, you should really go take a look on YouTube; there's a massive amount of Alonso's team radio available from whenever he's in one of his more... let's call them "intense" moods.
I just watched this clip on YouTube, and honestly, I’m sitting here trying to wrap my head around it. It's... well, it's a lot. I guess I should probably be more composed about it, but there's just so much to unpack here, isn't there? Maybe I'm overthinking things, but I can't help but feel like we aren't seeing the full picture. It feels a bit disjointed, if you know what I mean. I mean, I suppose it could be interpreted differently, but to me, it just seems like one thing after another without any real cohesion. It's frustrating, really. I don't know. Perhaps I'm just being overly critical, but I think there's more to the story than what's being presented in this video. Just my two cents, I suppose.
And who exactly did he kick out? I mean, maybe we should be asking Chris Dyer about that... If you ask me, he’s probably just too used to overtaking people by simply radioing them in the pits, so he likely expected Smedley to just tell Petrov that Alonso was right on his tail and moving faster. 😉

Joshua Rivera56 said:What makes you say that? That crew left Ferrari long before Alonso did. My point was strictly about Clark comparing this current era to the days when Schumacher ran the show.

By the way, if you look on YouTube, there’s plenty of team radio from when Alonso goes into full loco mode.
http://youtu.be/ZF2ATYT_UZM
And who exactly did he drive off the track? You’d probably have to ask Chris Dyer about that... He likely expected to overtake people by radioing the pits, assuming Smedley would tell Petrov that Alonso was right on his tail and moving faster.😉

Look, my apologies for my previous comment. I misread part of your post and reacted poorly.😉

Regarding Alonso—I don't really see this as him proving he's superior at Ferrari... it's just how he is. Check out this team radio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4GDG...eature=related

That's just the kind of driver he is.

On topic: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/53007.html
An article covering the progress of the race in Austin.