#101 ·
mistybear87 said:You guys are a small bunch, but I guess that just makes us closer. 😍 😉 😛😛😛
Crawlers!
And you're actually contradicting yourself here. 😁
Valencia Grand Prix - June 26, 2011
Started by Nancy Scott5 · · 👁 13 views · 134 replies
Participants
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Crawlers!
And you're actually contradicting yourself here. 😁
#102 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Crawler!
And you've actually managed to contradict yourself a little bit here. 😁
🤣🤣🤣
I don't need to play the crawler; they love me just the way I am😛
What contradiction are we even talking about? 🤷
#103 ·
Roger Wright94 said:I’ve been talking about letting Matt Damon go for ages now, and my mind is made up. As time ticks by, the damage just keeps mounting.
Felipe is a decent guy, I guess, but he’s just way too underwhelming for a seat like that.
With the kind of cash Ferrari is throwing at their other driver, they could practically sign anyone. Honestly, the only people completely off the table are maybe a handful of the absolute elite.
What we still don't know, though—and this is the big question—is what those driver contracts actually look like, what they permit, what protections they have in place...
Look, we can sit here all day debating the "damage," but let's face it: Ferrari isn't even in the conversation for the championship right now, whether you're looking at the drivers' standings or the constructors'. Even if they somehow managed to land two Lewis Hamiltons, nothing would change; they’d still be stuck as a third-tier outfit, scraping by in 5th or 6th place.
So, this "damage" you're bringing up? It's purely cosmetic. It's an image problem that doesn't actually move the needle for Ferrari or for Alonso. I mean, come on—if you sign a driver you claim is the best in the world, yet you're simultaneously paying tens of millions to someone who won you championships but isn't even driving... I really don't think Ferrari has any ground to stand on when it comes to complaining about driver issues. They got exactly what they paid for.
My prediction? By the end of the season, Stefano Domenicali is out, and I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Damon sticks around through 2012. It works for Ford because the USA is such a vital market for them, and it works for Alonso because he gets to be the undisputed boss of the garage. The only way I see Matt Damon leaving is if Ferrari decides they have a real shot at signing a rookie with actual world champion potential.
#104 ·
You're mostly right about everything, except for one tiny detail: if Massa were actually a better driver for Ford, he’d be sitting right there as their number two, or maybe even closer to it. The thing is, if Massa had scored more points, it would have automatically meant that Hamilton and Button ended up with fewer 😉
#105 ·
Quote:I'm certainly no advocate for Massin staying in the top squad, but I can sign off on this assessment without hesitation. 🙏
I’ve been calling for Massu's dismissal for quite some time now, and my mind is made up. As the days pass, the cost of inaction just keeps growing.
Felipe is a decent guy, but he simply lacks the caliber required for a seat at this level.
With the budget they’re handing to their second driver, Ford could practically sign anyone they wanted. The only ones truly out of reach are the absolute elite tier.
What we still lack is any insight into the specifics of these contracts—what they actually guarantee or what kind of leverage they provide...
We can debate the concept of "damage" all we want, but let’s face facts: Ford isn't even in the conversation for the championship right now, whether you look at the drivers or the constructors. Even if they managed to land two Alonsos, nothing would change; they’d still be stuck in third place, likely finishing fifth and sixth in the standings.
So, this "damage" you're talking about is really just cosmetic. It's an issue of perception that doesn't fundamentally shift the needle for Ford or for Alonso. I mean, when you sign a driver you claim is the best in the world, and then you pay tens of millions to a guy who won you titles but isn't even driving... Ford doesn't really have much room to complain about driver talent. They got exactly what they paid for.
My prediction? By the end of the season, Stefano Domenicali will be out the door. As for Massu, I wouldn't be surprised if he’s still there in 2012. It suits General Motors, given how vital the USA market is to them, and it works for Alonso, who enjoys being the undisputed authority within the garage. The only way Massu leaves is if Ford decides they have a genuine shot at signing a rookie with world champion potential.
#106 ·
Joshua Rivera56 said:So that "damage" you’re talking about is just cosmetic stuff—surface level impressions that don't change the reality for Ford or Alonso. I mean, look, when you sign a driver you claim is the best on the planet, while also paying tens of millions to some guy who won you championships but isn't even driving anymore... I don't think Ford has much room left to make excuses about driver issues. They got exactly what they paid for.
We're drifting off topic here. I'm not trying to justify bad results. I'm looking at how things could actually improve.
The car definitely needs work if it's ever going to stand a chance against Red Bull.
As for Alonso, he's been a home run. I'm convinced nobody else in his shoes would have pulled off the results he has—not last year, not this year. That's just my take.
Mass needs (or needed) the best, or at least an equal, car on the grid to make anything happen. So why bother with a driver like him?
I like the guy personally, but this string of bad results is getting too long. He's pushed past my limit of patience. This business is too expensive to tolerate this kind of performance indefinitely.
Joshua Rivera56 said:My theory? Stefano Domenicali gets the boot by the end of the season, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mass stays put through 2012. It works for General Motors since the USA is such a vital market, and it works for Alonso because he gets to be the undisputed boss of the team. The only thing that seems even remotely logical is if Ford decides they have a shot at signing a rookie with future world champion potential—in that case, I can see Mass being shown the door.
That's rational, managerial thinking. Sure, it makes sense on paper.
Personally, I'd prefer a more balanced lineup where the drivers actually push each other (meaning someone closer to Alonso's level). Racing is unpredictable; the best guy doesn't always win. A lot of outside factors, both on and off the track, play a huge role.
That's where my frustration with Mass comes in. I honestly don't see any realistic scenario where he capitalizes on an opportunity and actually wins. In fact, it's usually the opposite. No matter the setup, he consistently messes up and loses. Too consistently. Calling it pessimism would be an understatement.
How does Jenson Button win a race?
If Mass sticks around for 2012, it'll be solely because that's what Alonso wants. I won't like it, but frankly, he's earned that kind of special treatment.
#107 ·
Honestly, I don't get why everyone is acting so shocked about Massa being labeled as "subpar" behind the wheel. It was always obvious they had a clear hierarchy with a designated number one and number two driver.
That’s just how Ford operates—it's their playbook, and you can bet your life they aren't changing it anytime soon.
Besides, was Rubens actually any better?
Or even Max Mosley? (I mean, sure, he had more "experience" under his belt... but as far as pure driving talent goes, not even close)
That’s just how Ford operates—it's their playbook, and you can bet your life they aren't changing it anytime soon.
Besides, was Rubens actually any better?
Or even Max Mosley? (I mean, sure, he had more "experience" under his belt... but as far as pure driving talent goes, not even close)
#108 ·
wiredtiger8 said:Honestly, I’m not quite sure why people are questioning Mass's quality behind the wheel. It was always pretty obvious which driver was the lead and which one was playing second fiddle within the team.
It really is a shame how he lost that championship title in those final frantic seconds; who knows, maybe we’d be watching a completely different version of Mass today if that hadn't happened...🙄 perhaps he wouldn't have been a vastly superior technical driver, but maybe he would have had more grit, or just that extra bit of hunger in his eyes...
#109 ·
wanderingbison9 said:It’s honestly such a bummer that he lost that championship in the final seconds back then—maybe we’d be watching a completely different version of Mass today...🙄 I mean, maybe he wouldn't have been technically superior, but he would've had more grit, more hunger...
Yeah, in the thirty-odd years I've been following NASCAR, that whole situation with Mass and that stolen title is the one that sticks with me most.
I just like the guy... regardless of how he handles a car. Back during the Michael Schumacher days at Ford, he actually knew how to play his part and wait for his shot once Schumi moved on. And man, did he get his shot.
But luck just wasn't on his side... what a shame.
If you ask me, ever since that mess, he hasn't driven nearly as well as he's capable of—and let's be real, his ceiling was never quite "champion" level anyway.
#110 ·
wiredtiger8 said:Yeah, in the thirty years I've been following NASCAR, nothing hits harder than that whole Mess with Mass and that lost championship.
Then you’ll probably remember how Max Mosley also lost his title in the final race. Only difference is his performance was a total roller coaster.
#111 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Then you'll go and remember that Irvin also lost out on the title in the final race. Though—let's be honest—his performance swings were absolutely massive.
Yeah, sure—while Schumi was dealing with a broken leg. I also distinctly remember how Schumi didn't have any trouble playing "water boy" once he finally made his comeback toward the end of the season.
Not that I felt particularly bad about it... honestly, not even close.
#112 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Look, I’m not trying to derail the conversation here. I am not talking about making excuses for the results (I'm really not). I am discussing potential scenarios for improvement.
The car absolutely needs to be upgraded to make it actually competitive against Red Bull.
Alonso is a total home run, and I am convinced that nobody else in his position would have achieved better results—not last year, and certainly not this year. That is just my opinion.
Mass must (or should have) had the best, or at least an equal, car on the grid to actually accomplish anything. So, what good is a driver like him to me?
I like him personally, I really do, but this string of poor results is just getting way too long, and frankly, he has crossed my threshold of tolerance. This business is far too expensive to put up with this kind of stuff indefinitely.
That is rational, managerial thinking. Fine, it holds water.
Personally, I would much prefer a more balanced lineup where the drivers are actually competing against one another (meaning, a driver who could actually stay close to Alonso). Racing is a sport where the absolute best doesn't always win. It’s rare that it isn't influenced by a massive chain of external circumstances, both on the track and off.
And that brings me to why I feel so bad about Massa. I simply cannot see any scenario or set of circumstances where he capitalizes on an opportunity to, say, take a win. In fact, the opposite always happens. No matter how you slice it, he constantly messes up and loses. It happens way too often. Treating him any differently would just be pure pessimism.
How does Button ever manage to win a race?
If Massa stays on through 2012, then it will be solely because that is what Alonso wants. I wouldn't be happy about it, but honestly, he deserves that kind of (royal) treatment.
It isn't a diversion from the topic. Ferrari's ambitions and Alonso's goals are no secret: anything short of a championship is a failure, and being out of the title fight entirely is nothing short of a disaster.
By choosing Alonso, Ferrari entered this vicious cycle because they subordinated everything to him. The team allowed the driver's interests to become almost synonymous with the team's own interests. In that light, blaming Massa for anything is nothing more than a pathetic excuse for the failures of Alonso and Ferrari.
Regarding Ferrari's second driver... I think it's pretty obvious that by signing Alonso, Ferrari has essentially tied their own hands when it comes to picking anyone else. So, I wouldn't say Massa will stay just because Alonso wants him to; rather, it's more likely he'll stay because Alonso won't accept just anyone else in that seat. There is a huge difference there.
#113 ·
wiredtiger8 said:Yeah, while Schumi was dealing with a broken leg. I also recall Schumi playing the role of the perfect wingman without any issues once he returned toward the end of the season.
Though, I wasn't exactly heartbroken over that... not even close.
That was honestly hilarious... watching how hard Schumi had to push just to stay ahead of him... pure comedy. That clown Irvin... but honestly, we need characters like that today. These young drivers are all too polished and sterile. Imagine if you didn't have Alonso and Hamilton; it would be like watching local morning news in a tiny Midwestern town.
#114 ·
babanghida said:By picking Fernando Alonso, Ferrari essentially walked into a trap because they restructured everything around him. The team allowed the driver's personal agenda to carry almost as much weight as the team's own goals. In this context, blaming Felipe Massa for anything is just a pathetic excuse for the failures of both Fernando Alonso and Ferrari.
Regarding Ferrari's second driver... it's pretty obvious that signing Fernando Alonso tied their hands regarding who else could join the team. I wouldn't say Felipe Massa is staying simply because Fernando Alonso wants him there; rather, he’s staying because Fernando Alonso won't tolerate anyone else. There is a massive distinction there.
Fernando Alonso was actually working behind the scenes to bring Kubica into Ferrari. It was basically a done deal until that whole mess happened.....
#115 ·
wiredtiger8 said:Yeah, and that was while Michael Schumacher was dealing with a broken leg. I distinctly remember how Michael Schumacher stepped up to act as his teammate's support system without any issues once he got back toward the end of the season.
Not that I felt particularly bad about it... honestly, not even close.
Personally, I always thought Eddie Irvine was a bit of a character, but as a driver for Ferrari, he never really shined. It was pretty obvious he was just the No. 2 driver, and frankly, it didn't seem like he cared for anything more than that. Even Mika Salo, who they brought in to fill the seat after Michael Schumacher broke his leg, actually handled himself better during those few races than Irvine did throughout his entire tenure at Ferrari.
#116 ·
Mika Salo was such a talented driver; it’s truly a shame he never quite received the credit he deserved...
#117 ·
Frank Collins85 said:Mika Salo was a hell of a driver, honestly; it’s just a shame he never really got the credit he deserved....
👍
#118 ·
Frank Collins85 said:Mika Salo was such an incredible driver, it's honestly such a shame he didn't get the credit he deserved....
"Underappreciated" feels like a massive understatement here.
#119 ·
Austin Evans said:Honestly, Mika Salo stepped in to cover for Michael Schumacher after that broken leg, and he actually looked better in that Ferrari seat during those few races than Eddie Irvine did during his entire tenure there.
Sure, he probably fared better than Luca Badoer or Giancarlo Fisichella, but it’s a small sample size. We're talking about a handful of points over maybe five or six races. All I know is he almost finished ahead of Eddie Irvine once.😁.
They had likely already signed Rubens Barrichello by then. I can't quite recall the exact timing. Because if the kid really had that much potential, why wasn't he in the lineup back in 2000?
#120 ·
Roger Wright94 said:He performed better than maybe Luca Badoer or Giancarlo Fisichella, but it still wasn't enough. We're talking about a handful of points over five or six races. All I know is that in one of them, he was right on the heels of Eddie Irvine 😁.
They probably had Rubens Barrichello signed by then. I don't recall the exact timing. Because if he actually had that much potential, why didn't he make the main squad back in 2000?
"Potential" was a joke; that was just the swan song of his career and that was that.
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