Overrated athletes?

Jason Fisher78 said:😂 It’s always the same pattern—some arrogant kid shows up, thinks he’s mastered the game because he read a few books and dominated the local playground, and suddenly feels entitled to lecture everyone else. Just slow down, kid; you'll understand when you're older. 🙂

I haven't even touched a basketball magazine since the turn of the millennium... and for your information, I was following the game long before you were even a thought, back when it was truly gritty, somewhere around the late '80s... maybe the '87-'88 season.😉

Jason Fisher78 said:Listen, you idiot, go back and actually read what I wrote. I’m not the one out here making these claims. It was those damn journalists pumping out this garbage, acting like he’s going to walk in and win everything with every single roster at any given moment. They really screwed themselves over with that one.

Unbelievable. Does it seriously say it was just Scottie Pippen? What about when Steve Kerr was out there draining threes like it was nothing? Would Michael Jordan have even walked away with a ring without that? And don't even get me started on how Toni Kukoč played the game of his life against the Utah Jazz. Seriously?

That’s exactly the problem. Everyone was just playing for him.

That’s just plain manipulative and stupid if you ask me. You could have easily finished your sentence to mention that they didn't even pass them along to Kobe Bryant like Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan would have. And let's be real—was Dennis Rodman ever dropping 25 points a game like Shaquille O'Neal? Not even close.

🤦 What an idiot. We’re sitting here talking about the actual game, and he’s stuck on some 1-1 tie. Why did I even bother showing up? Honestly, I have nobody to blame but myself. 🙂

Shaquille O'Neal was dropping 25 points a night like it was nothing. But hey, I wouldn't expect you to know that. And let’s be real—Shaq wasn't exactly handing out passes to anyone else. He played the role of both the playmaker and the center at the same time. Most of the time, he was the one running the entire offense himself. 🤦
Find me one shred of evidence that anyone actually expected Chicago to win anything with him in Washington, D.C. Seriously, just find me one single article.
Dammit. Steve Kerr sinks a three, and Toni Kukoč plays out of his mind... honestly, that clutch shot from Kerr might just be the turning point of Michael Jordan's entire career. You missed mentioning Paxton, too. But then again, you probably haven't even heard of him.☕
You're out here lecturing me about teamwork, and then you have the nerve to complain that one of Michael Jordan's teammates hit a three? Give me a break. 🤦 You even know that during that timeout right before Steve Kerr’s three-pointer, Michael Jordan told him he was going to feed him the ball and to be ready? Of course you don't. You were probably a little kid back then, and your parents wouldn't have let you stay up late enough to actually watch the game.

I forgot to mention this to these kids who apparently never even watched the NBA back in the eighties or nineties. Chicago was taking every single shot. Seriously, everything, especially when the game was on the line. And then, when he misses one of those last twenty clutch attempts, everyone acts like it’s some unprecedented tragedy. But when Steve Kerr sinks one on his only attempt, nobody makes a big deal out of it. Not to mention how Chicago used to hunt for fouls to get a billion free throws, and since he was such a great shooter, you could basically just pad your stats however you wanted.

rowdytinker3 said:Shaquille O'Neal was dropping 25 points like it was nothing. But hey, I probably shouldn't expect you to know that. And obviously, Shaq wasn't just sitting there passing the ball to everyone else; he was playing both point guard and center roles at the same time, basically running the whole offense 🤦
Just find me one single article where anyone actually expected Chicago to win anything with Washington, D.C. Please, just one.

The sheer amount of stupidity here is unreal. Like, do you actually process what you read? I used to think that guy from politics whose name starts with an M was the biggest idiot on this forum, but you’re making him look like a genius by comparison.

Better than Chicago are: Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain...

Jason Fisher78 said:It’s interesting that people only credit Scottie Pippen. When Steve Kerr was hitting those crucial threes, did anyone wonder if Michael Jordan would have even secured the title without that spacing? And frankly, I find myself questioning if they ever would have overcome the Utah Jazz if Toni Kukoč hadn't played the game of his life against them.

And how exactly do you claim to know what might have happened? Are you some kind of prophet now? Besides, who was it that actually set the stage and gave Steve Kerr the opportunity to sink that three? It was Toni Kukoč, wasn't it? 🤣

What ridiculous comparisons people try to make just to justify a headline—claiming it all because Steve Kerr hit one clutch three-pointer or because Toni Kukoč went on a tear. This is a team sport, after all. Besides, Michael Jordan already proved everything to the entire world, regardless of whether you choose to see it or not. You simply don't get it, and frankly, you never will.☕

That’s exactly the crux of the matter. Everyone was playing just for him.

What an absolute joke of a statement... Michael Jordan is nothing more than a fraud, a fact that seems to escape everyone except Jason Fisher78, who is clearly the only one perceptive enough to see through the massive conspiracy claiming that Clear vision is just some common pretender who managed to pull all of this off:
A 6-time NBA Champion.
A 6-time NBA Finals MVP.
Five-time NBA MVP.
Two-time Olympic Gold Medalist.
Michael Jordan's career achievements include being a 14-time NBA All-Star.
Ten selections to the All-NBA First Team is quite a feat.
Nine selections to the All-Defensive First Team.
The NBA Rookie of the Year award remains one of those fleeting honors that often fails to predict true greatness.
Because everyone from James Worthy to Paxton, then moving through Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, and finally Toni Kukoč, was essentially playing for his benefit.🙏🙏

😁

Jason Fisher78 said:I forgot to mention this to these kids who clearly weren't watching the NBA back in the 80s and 90s. Michael Jordan took every single shot. Every last one. Especially when the game was on the line at the end. And then, when he misses one of those last 20 crucial attempts, people act like it's some unprecedented tragedy. But when Steve Kerr sinks a three on his only attempt, nobody makes a huge deal out of it. Not to mention how MJ would rack up a billion free throws just because everyone was hacking him, and since he was such a killer from the stripe, he’d juice his scoring stats even more.

Does it really matter that Kerr made his three because he was left wide open like a ghost thanks to the defense doubling Michael Jordan?
What about when Michael Jordan was left totally alone for a clutch shot?

Honestly, it's a joke.

Jason Fisher78 said:The sheer lack of brain cells here is staggering. Can you even process what you read? I used to think that guy from the local political office whose name starts with M was the biggest idiot on this board, but you’re making him look like a genius by comparison.

They’re all better than Michael Jordan: Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain...

Look, Larry Bird is overrated. Everyone played up to his level. He would’ve been nothing if he didn't have Kevin McHale, and Magic Johnson would've been a nobody without Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. There. Go ahead and try to argue with that.☕

Honestly, most people here are probably going to agree that you're a moron. Only a complete lunatic would claim Michael Jordan is overrated.

rowdytinker3 said:Secondly, Michael Jordan in Washington, D.C.? The guy came back to play, and now you’re seriously expecting him to lead a roster of those Wizards underdogs to a championship at age 40?🤣 That’s why he’s overrated.🤣

While we're on the subject, here is a little statistical tidbit. There is only one man in NBA history who managed to drop more than 40 points after turning 40 years old.

To be clear: over 40 points after age 40.

darkjackal70 said:And how exactly do you know that won't happen? What, are you some kind of prophet now? Besides, who even gave Kerr the green light to take that three? It was Kuk, wasn't it? 🤣

What kind of moronic comparisons are we even making here? Just because Kerr hit one clutch three-pointer in a game, or because Kuk went absolutely ballistic once, doesn't mean anything. This is a team sport, for crying out loud. Michael Jordan already proved everything to the entire world—everything you clearly refuse to see. You just don't get it, and honestly, you never will.☕

Hahaha, what a joke... Michael Jordan is such a massive fraud. Honestly, nobody else seems to get it except for Jason Fisher78—he’s the only one who actually sees through the whole conspiracy that Golden State is just a bunch of total phonies. They managed to pull off this entire act:
6× NBA Champion
6× NBA Finals MVP
5× NBA Most Valuable Player
Two-time Olympic Gold Medalist
14× NBA All-Star
Ten times on an All-NBA First Team. Just insane.
Nine times on an All-Defensive First Team. Just insane.
The NBA Rookie of the Year award is such a joke lately. Every year, people lose their minds over some kid who just walked off a college campus, acting like he’s already the next big thing. I remember watching my brother struggle through his freshman year at State, grinding every single day, and then seeing these hyped-up rookies get all the glory after one decent season. It’s all flash and no substance. Most of these guys won't even be starters in three years, let alone legends. Give me a break.
I mean, come on. Everyone was out there playing for him—from James Worthy all the way through to Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, and Kuk.🙏🙏

😁

Are you kidding me? Without Kerr, none of that would have even been possible!

rowdytinker3 said:It doesn't really matter if Kerr sank that three when he was left completely isolated like a ghost because they doubled Michael Jordan.
When was the last time Michael Jordan was actually left alone for a clutch shot?

Honestly, the whole argument is pointless.

On a side note, we aren't even talking about three-pointers here; it was a two-pointer in question... and this is coming from someone who clearly didn't watch that final.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgsSm...eature=related

Ryan Vaughn7 said:While we’re on the subject, here’s a little statistical nugget for you. There is only one guy in NBA history who managed to drop more than 40 points after turning 40.

Let me say that again: 40+ after 40.

And look, I can already hear Jason Fisher78 coming in to explain how everyone in Washington was basically playing for him and he just lived at the free-throw line.🙏

rowdytinker3 and darkjackal70, let's actually spark a real debate instead of this pseudo-intellectual nonsense about who's got more game.

First off, I need to address that little comparison darkjackal70 tried to pull with Bill Russell:

Seasons played
Bill Russell 13
Michael Jordan 15

Championship rings
Bill Russell 11
Michael Jordan 6

Conference titles
Bill Russell 10
Michael Jordan 6

Times missed the Finals
Bill Russell 0
Michael Jordan 7

Times missed the playoffs
Bill Russell 0
Michael Jordan 2

Rings lost
Bill Russell 0
Michael Jordan 5

College seasons
Bill Russell 3
Michael Jordan 3

College titles
Bill Russell 2
Michael Jordan 1

College Final Four appearances
Bill Russell 2
Michael Jordan 1

Is anything unclear here, or should I go slower?

Jason Fisher78 said:rowdytinker3 and darkjackal70, let’s stop this amateur debate about who’s actually got more muscle and move on to something real.

First, I need to shut down that comparison darkjackal70 tried to pull with Bill Russell:

Seasons played
Bill Russell 13
Michael Jordan 15

Championships
Bill Russell 11
Michael Jordan 6

Conference Titles
Bill Russell 10
Michael Jordan 6

Times missing the Finals
Bill Russell 0
Michael Jordan 7

Times missing the playoffs
Bill Russell 0
Michael Jordan 2

Lost rings
Bill Russell 0
Michael Jordan 5

College seasons
Bill Russell 3
Michael Jordan 3

College titles
Bill Russell 2
Michael Jordan 1

College Final Four appearances
Bill Russell 2
Michael Jordan 1

Is anything unclear here?

For starters, you're comparing apples to oranges. But fine, whatever.
What exactly does this prove? That Michael Jordan is overrated? Or that everyone except Bill Russell is overrated?

Secondly, if you want to be fair, you should mention that during Russell's era, the league only had eight teams and two playoff rounds. You really ought to note that if you know what you're talking about.

What are you even trying to demonstrate? Personally, I don't claim Michael Jordan is the greatest ever. I think calling anyone the "GOAT" is impossible. There are a handful of players where you can honestly say they belong in that conversation—Michael Jordan is one of them. Just like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. It's subjective. But saying he's overrated? Please.

I see people here calling Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, and Michael Phelps overrated... it's ridiculous. If they're overrated, then who isn't?

Regarding the rest of the teams, I guess we should look at how people explain things like the fact that the Chicago Bulls had a 57 - 25 performance : conference finals year in 1993 with Michael Jordan, but then in 1994, without him, they went 55-27? Phil Jackson predicted they'd drop about 15 wins. And when Jordan left, you had Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and B. J. Armstrong making the All-Star Game. I mean, how does that even happen when he's gone?

Let's just take a quick look at what happened to other squads one year after their superstars walked out the door:

1969 Boston Celtics and Bill Russell
When Bill Russell was playing
regular season 48-34
Result: Championship won

The year after he left:
regular season: 34-48 -
Win difference -14
Result: missed the playoffs

1973 Los Angeles Lakers and Wilt Chamberlain
When Bill Russell was playing
regular season 60-22
Result: NBA Finals

The year after he left:
regular season: 47-35 -
Win difference -13
Result: lost in the first round of the playoffs

1974 Milwaukee Bucks and Oscar Robertson
When Oscar Robertson was playing:
regular season 59-23
Result: NBA Finals

The year after he left:
regular season: 38-44 -
Win difference -21
Result: missed the playoffs

1988 Boston Celtics and Larry Bird
When Larry Bird was playing:
regular season 57-25
Result: conference finals

The year after he left:
regular season: 42-40 -
Win difference -15
Result: lost in the first round of the playoffs 3-0

1991 Los Angeles Lakers and Magic Johnson
When Magic Johnson was playing:
regular season 57-25
Result: NBA Finals

The year after he left:
regular season: 43-39
Win difference -15
Result: lost in the first round of the playoffs 3-1

1993 Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan
When Michael Jordan was playing:
regular season 57-25
Result: Championship won

The year after he left:
regular season: 55-27
Win difference -2
Result: lost in the second round of the playoffs 4-3

With the Bulls in '94, you kind of have to mention how they actually exited. Scottie Pippen got hit with this totally phantom foul on Hubert Davis, who ended up sinking the winning free throws. People pretty much call that one of the biggest officiating robberies in NBA history. If the Bulls had actually moved on, they probably would've taken down Indiana in the Finals.

Michael Jordan is undeniably a legend. One of the absolute greatest to ever play the game.
On the flip side, when we talk about him being "overrated," we shouldn't just be debating his actual talent—which is clearly elite—but rather the massive, suffocating hype machine built around him.
You could argue that Michael Jordan became the most successful sports brand in history (trailing only someone like Tiger Woods 😁), during an era where sports marketing hit a fever pitch that hasn't really cooled down since.
There was this relentless attempt to turn Jordan into some kind of superhuman being in every possible aspect of life, which can be incredibly grating. It’s clearly rubbed Jason Fisher78 the wrong way. Every single move he made on the court was scrutinized and documented in hyper-detail, even long before he started stacking up NBA rings, which is essentially the only metric that matters in the NBA.
Jordan plays through a 104-degree fever; Jordan dunks over Eaton because critics mocked him for dunking on shorter players; Jordan misses free throws while blindfolded; Jordan wins a championship and sprints to the locker room alone to celebrate Father's Day; Jordan has the perfect family life; Jordan is a god at golf and baseball; Jordan would be a champion on any team; Jordan could win collegiate basketball tournaments; if he played today, he'd be dropping 100 points a game... you get the idea. It’s a mountain of hyperbolic nonsense.

In that sense, Jordan is overrated. He isn't a superhero. While Bill Russell and Kobe Bryant are certainly in his tier of greatness, they don't deal with this level of obsessive glorification. You might argue that you can't compare Russell to Jordan, but you can absolutely compare Kobe to Jordan. So, tell me: who is more glorified, Kobe or Jordan?

rowdytinker3 said:Also, I guess it’d be fair to mention that Bill Russell’s comfort zone involved an 8-team league and two playoff rounds. That’s a pretty big detail to leave out if you actually know what you're talking about.

If there were more teams, I mean, what kind of stats would even be left in Russell's favor?

rowdytinker3 said:Whatever it is you're trying to prove... look, I'm not claiming Michael Jordan is the greatest ever; honestly, I think trying to pick one GOAT is impossible. There are just a few guys where you can legitimately say "he's the best," and Michael Jordan is definitely in that circle, along with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and stuff. It's mostly subjective, really. But you can't seriously call him overrated.

Maybe he's media-overrated. Like, they highlighted things he did that other guys were doing just as well, they just didn't get the same hype. Ever watch NBA Countdown or whatever they call it now? He was always top tier for dunks, even when someone else's tenth attempt was clearly better than his. Speaking of dunks, let's not forget that 1988 robbery. Dominique Wilkins was dunking way better, but Michael Jordan took the win because the All-Star Game was in Chicago and they needed to turn him into some media deity. He scored 50 points because he dunked from the free-throw line, not because he was actually better. Then in 1990, Scottie Pippen basically pulled the same stunt, but since he stayed behind the line, he only got 46. Funny how that works. Not that Michael Jordan was the first guy to dunk like that anyway, so that isn't even a valid reason for those 50 points.

Let's keep this moving. When Michael Jordan came back in '95, the squad was missing both Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman. Grant had moved on to Orlando, and wouldn't you know it, the Bulls, led by Jordan, ended up dropping to the second round against Orlando, losing 4-2. So yeah, they were out 4-2. I guess some nitpickers might argue that they actually performed better the year before without Jordan, since they went out 4-3 back then.
If people kept insisting that they desperately needed Jordan and would have snagged the title in '94 if he hadn't left, how does it make sense that they somehow did worse once he actually returned? Maybe the real secret sauce was Horace Grant's defensive grit rather than just Jordan's all-around game... ☕At least until they brought in someone even more impactful than Grant—Dennis Rodman.

darkpilot9 said:You could argue that you can't really compare Bill Russell to Michael Jordan, but Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan? That's a fair fight. So, let's settle this: who's more overrated, Kobe or MJ?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...jordan-is-king

The article says it all.
As for Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan never played on a roster as stacked as those Los Angeles Lakers. And when the Lakers grabbed those first three titles during the Bryant era, Shaquille O'Neal was the man running the show and taking home the 3x Finals MVP trophies. Kobe was just the second option back then. Michael Jordan was never anyone's second option.

rowdytinker3 said:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...jordan-is-king

The evidence is right there.
As for Kobe Bryant, Jordan never played on a roster as stacked as these Lakers. When the Lakers pulled off those first three titles during the Bryant era, the undisputed leader and 3x Finals MVP was Shaquille O'Neal. Kobe was essentially the second option. Jordan was never anyone's second option.

Look, I see what you're doing. You're quoting an article that relies entirely on stats. By that logic, Bill Russell is untouchable. Did he play in a different, easier era? Fine, then Kobe is playing in a different era than Jordan. Do you honestly believe basketball isn't faster, stronger, and generally more demanding today than it was in, say, 1998? Especially considering we now recruit talent from all over the world.

Comparing the quality of the Bulls to the Lakers—especially these Lakers without Shaquille O'Neal—is highly debatable, but that’s your take. Personally, I think Jordan wouldn't have won a single championship without Scottie Pippen.

rowdytinker3 said:it's all right there in the stats.

Here’s the reality of the situation:

Michael Jordan showed up in Chicago in 1984. That year, they didn't do anything. A year later? Still nothing. The third year rolls around, and once again, absolutely nothing happens. So, for those first three seasons, I guess you could say Jordan didn't really move the needle for the Bulls at all. They weren't even hitting a .500 winning percentage by the end of any given season. But then, maybe because the roster finally started looking decent, guys like Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen join the mix, and suddenly things start moving. They break that 50% win mark and make it to the Eastern Conference semifinals. It was just a slow build, filling out the roster, and eventually, they end up with three titles. Then Jordan takes a breather, and the team manages to stay competitive—finishing only two wins shy of the previous year before losing a ring on a blown call. When he comes back, though, the season is actually worse than before because they lost Grant in the process. So, basically, Jordan can't just drag a squad to the top without some serious help. Once Dennis Rodman fills that specific hole in the lineup and becomes the league's premier rebounder, they grab another three rings. After he moves to a mediocre Washington, D.C. team, they go nowhere. So, this whole media narrative about him being the sole reason for the wins, or that he brings a championship wherever he lands, is pretty much just a myth.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he's an incredible scorer who wouldn't have come close to that many rings if the front office hadn't eventually built a supporting cast and found the right coach. You probably can't leave Phil Jackson out of that equation either.