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Proposed bill on IVF regulations

Started by Angela Wright · · 👁 6 views · 140 replies

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Participants Angela WrightMorgan TorresLaura MendozaKeith Peterson95rustybison19Harold Cook2Ashley Price57Betty Bennett10slyscout192Brandon Evans10silentmarlin51Douglas Green31analogskipper11feralwolf30Nicole Rivera10amberfox4ruggedcanyon8Kyle Lee7goldenpilot20Casey Palmer5Thomas Roberts9feralmaker7placidorca16Noah Diaz29 …
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#41 ·
feralwolf30 said:hahahahahaha, look at you trying to twist my words.
Evil is hiding behind all that moralizing and preaching of yours.
There’s a massive difference from one person to the next—different inclinations, different lives—so there is a huge distinction between pedophilia and homosexuality!
Maybe try actually reading your own posts for once instead of rambling nonsense.
What does Nazi Germany or Chetniks have to do with this? WTF? Stick to the topic.

So now you're telling me that evil is lurking behind my "moralizing and preaching."
I’m neither moralizing nor preaching...

We are talking about individual rights here. Whether it involves a pedophile or a homosexual, the law should treat them the same way.
But you're the ones playing favorites—stripping rights from some while handing them to others.
You aren't any better than Milinović—actually, you're worse—since you'd be ready to kill if given the chance, or push for the death penalty. But I doubt you'll ever get a confession out of him in this case.

You grant rights to some and deny them to others...
How exactly does that make you any different from the people you're accusing?

I'll give you this much: I agree that it's easier to just spit on everyone else...

Weren't you the one bringing up the past? I asked you the same question earlier—what past? That's why I brought it up.

And if we're going to talk about evil, based on your post, it looks like it's fueled by intolerance and hatred... a hatred you haven't shown any mercy toward... and you seem eager to jump on it at the first opportunity...
amberfox4 amberfox4 Active Member
75 messages
joined Sep 2008
#42 ·
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5YrB7TpT1Y

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/vi...2107858642727/

Regarding the way the Church insists on meddling in absolutely everything
ruggedcanyon8 ruggedcanyon8 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2009
#43 ·
Given that statistics show one in four men in America struggles with infertility, I find the introduction of this law to be nothing short of insulting and downright disrespectful. It’s especially frustrating because—once again—the church seems to be pulling the strings behind it. I don't even know if I fall into that one-in-four category myself, but regardless, I see absolutely nothing wrong with medical assistance for fertility. We use modern medicine to address almost every aspect of our physical health today; why should this be any different? Why all the circus over it?

And honestly, those arguments along the lines of "if God wanted you to have children, you would," are just completely beneath contempt! Can we please get serious for once? ☕
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#44 ·
Angela Wright said:Who gives a damn? Short and sweet.☕

But honestly—where is all this intense, built-up hatred coming from in the first place?
Kyle Lee7 Kyle Lee7 Active Member
149 messages
joined Nov 2007
#45 ·
It’s as if we don't have enough to deal with between the Secretary and his latest regulations, but now we also have to endure all this nonsense about daisies, ivančicas, and cyclamens being shoved down our throats.
The only person on this entire thread radiating pure hatred and judgment toward everyone else is cvjetić.
Listen, dear, you keep invoking Jesus, so maybe take a second to ask yourself if He actually spent His time condemning people the way you do.
You’ve got your laws, you’re happy, so why not just go bloom somewhere else? Seriously. Try showing a little bit of grace and basic decency.
feralwolf30 feralwolf30 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2009
#46 ·
slyscout192 said:You keep telling people that evil is lurking behind my supposed "moralizing and preaching."
I’m not moralizing, and I’m certainly not preaching...

We are talking about fundamental individual rights here. Whether someone is a pedophile or gay, the law should treat them exactly the same way.
But you're the one out here playing favorites—handing rights to some while stripping them away from others.
You aren't any better than Milinović; if anything, you're worse, because you'd probably advocate for the death penalty if anyone gave you the chance. But let's be real, you aren't going to get any credit for your "honesty" this time.

You grant rights to certain groups and deny them to others...
So, how exactly are you any different from the very people you're accusing?

I’ll give you this much: I agree that it's much easier to just spit on everyone else...

If I recall correctly, you brought up the past? Well, I asked you the same thing—what past exactly? That's why I mentioned it in the first place.

And since we’re talking about evil, based on your own post, it looks like there's a deep-seated intolerance and hatred hiding in there... things you haven't shown any mercy toward... and honestly, you seem ready to strike at the first opportunity...

🙂:
Go get some help. I have zero intention of wasting my breath responding to your nonsense. amen:
feralwolf30 feralwolf30 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2009
#47 ·
Melissa James70 said:It’s like we don't have enough to deal with between the Secretary and his endless regulations; now we also have to listen to various little busybodies trying to lecture us on how to live.
The only person on this entire thread radiating nothing but pure hatred and judgment toward everyone else is goldenpilot20.
Listen, dear, you keep invoking Jesus, so maybe take a second to ask yourself if he actually spent his time condemning people the way you do.
You've got your laws, you're happy, so why don't you just go find somewhere else to bloom? Seriously. Try showing a little bit of decency and respect for once.

🙏🙏🙏

👍👍👍
goldenpilot20 goldenpilot20 Member
22 messages
joined May 2009
#48 ·
Infertility usually stems from an underlying medical issue. At least, that’s how it works for men. I've also heard people claim that cell phone radiation messes with fertility, so they suggest you shouldn't carry your phone in your pocket.
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#49 ·
ruggedcanyon8 said:
Given that statistics show one in four men in America is infertile, I find the introduction of this law to be nothing short of disgusting and outright disrespectful. Especially since—you guessed it—the church has its fingers in this too. I don't even know if I fall into that one-in-four category myself, but regardless, I don't see anything wrong with medically assisted reproduction. We use medicine for almost everything involving our bodies and health these days; why make such a massive circus out of this?

And all those claims about how if God wanted them to have kids, they would have them... that's just not even worth a response! For heaven's sake, get real ☕

So, what exactly is this "assisted reproduction" supposed to be?

If I'm not mistaken, we aren't talking about pills or something like that...
Birth control pills are allowed (under religious law) to regulate cycles so people can identify fertile windows and assist conception, but artificial fertilization is an entirely different animal...

Which means a child is conceived (if I recall correctly) without a husband, unless you're using his sperm...

Meaning there’s no actual intercourse involved...
Where is the "natural" or "medical" aspect in that? It feels like pure engineering...
Women aren't livestock...

Nobody calls an animal a human being, yet many people seem to treat humans like animals...

When someone says "God willed it," what they really mean is: "it happened naturally"...

The only thing I notice people getting upset about is how this protects those who aren't married—or rather, those in cohabiting relationships—from being denied artificial conception.

And if that's such a huge issue, when marriage is viewed by some as just a piece of paper (though to me, it’s much more than that), why not just get married and solve the problem?

Isn't it in the interest of the state and every community to protect children?
Aren't they protected precisely by ensuring they are born into stable households?
Who exactly are you trying to protect in this scenario?

I agree that marital status isn't a guarantee of what kind of child someone will become, but also, if you decide to marry for the sake of the child, that doesn't suddenly turn you into a bad person...

Why is that marriage considered so "bad"? Milinović, and even the law itself, didn't say you had to be in your first marriage... You could be on your fifth, tenth, or fifteenth...

Look, I'm honest with myself, so I can be honest with you too...

Fear of failure is a big enough reason for someone to avoid marriage.
Also, refusing to accept a partner's behavior isn't a flaw in them—it actually says quite a bit about you as a person.

The point is, you just don't want to see yourselves in a negative light...
And marriage acts as a litmus test for your true character...
Because you are only as good as the respect you show your spouse...

And if you can't manage that, or if your marriages fall apart constantly, then just be honest with yourselves and admit you aren't exactly saints worthy of being role models or raising anyone...

People, please, stop being so selfish. This law is very good. It protects children, not you.

If it bothers you so much, just have a civil marriage. What's the harm in that?
I mean, seriously...
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#50 ·
Melissa James70 said:As if we didn't have enough to deal with between the Secretary and his endless regulations—now we also have to endure being lectured by various little busybodies trying to play moral authority.
The only person here radiating pure hatred and judgment toward everyone else in this thread is cvjetić.
Listen, dear, you keep invoking Jesus—maybe take a second to ask yourself if he actually spent his time condemning people the way you do.
You’ve got your laws, you’re happy, fine—so why don't you just go bloom somewhere else? Seriously. Show a little decency and mind your own business.

You—and anyone else who thinks adding those 👍👍👍 little icons makes you look wise—should realize that I'm not the one judging you; it's your own conscience doing the work.

I haven't singled anyone out or called names.
You essentially walked into the spotlight yourselves...

It's your own actions that define you...
When someone shouts "thief" in a crowd, does that mean they are personally judging the person who feels targeted? Not really.

Look, I'm simply suggesting you turn toward the light, but you aren't interested in stepping out of the shadows—because once you do, you might actually have to face what you've become.

But even that isn't the core issue; it's easy enough to wash away a stain.
The real problem is that you lack the humility required to ask for help.
And not because anyone wants to control you—but because sometimes, you actually need a hand. 🙈
feralwolf30 feralwolf30 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2009
#51 ·
Hey everyone, I’ve been thinking about something lately. What happens to people who aren't necessarily looking to get married, but just want to have a child for their own personal reasons—even if they aren't currently in a relationship?
Under these messed-up laws we have, they're basically barred from even trying.
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#52 ·
Melissa James70 said:As if we didn't have enough to deal with between the Secretary and his endless regulations—now we have to endure all this unsolicited wisdom from various little busybodies.
The only person here radiating pure hatred and judgment toward everyone else in this thread is cvjetić.
Look, dear, you keep invoking Jesus—maybe take a second to ask yourself if he actually spent his time condemning people the way you do.
You’ve got your laws, you’re happy, so why don't you just go bloom somewhere else? Seriously. Have a little bit of decency and tact.

Jesus spoke in parables.
Those who felt targeted weren't walking away because he called them out by name—they were leaving because they recognized themselves in those stories.

The ones who truly wanted to change—not out of mere obedience, but out of genuine humility and an acknowledgment of their own flaws—were the ones who accepted help.

But those who couldn't find it in themselves to forgive others, or even to look at their own mistakes, they just walked away.
ruggedcanyon8 ruggedcanyon8 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2009
#53 ·
Good grief—sorry, I honestly don't know if it's just me, but I am completely lost here. I don't even know where to begin responding to you.🤷

First off—why on earth should the church have the final say in everything? Why should an institution—one that, let's be real, was burning people at the stake and running inquisitions against anyone with a different opinion not that long ago—get to dictate how my family and I live our lives? And secondly—comparing female fertility to that of a mare? Seriously?🙄 Whether someone gets married or not is a deeply personal choice, in my view—and I suspect there are far more married couples looking to have children than unmarried ones. Besides, that isn't even the point. Why do you think a child would have better conditions for growing up in a marriage versus a domestic partnership?
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#54 ·
feralwolf30 said:Hey everyone, what about people who aren't married—not even in a relationship for whatever reason—but they still want a child?
Under this twisted legal system, they're barred from doing so.

Look, it’s not like you’re at a grocery store where you can just grab a kid off the shelf whenever you feel like it...

Don't you think a child actually has a right to both parents?
And really, do you think anyone is looking out for the rights and wishes of the child here, or is it all just about satisfying the whims of some people racing toward a goal?

Honestly, just go get a pet to cuddle and take care of—leave children alone.
Stop trying to turn them into your own little accessories...
slyscout192 slyscout192 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Aug 2009
#55 ·
ruggedcanyon8 said:
Good grief, sorry—I honestly don't know if it's just me, but I'm completely lost here. I have no idea where to even begin responding to you.🤷

First off, why should the church have the final say in everything? Why should an institution—one that wasn't even that long ago burning people at the stake and running inquisitions against anyone who thought differently—get to decide how my family and I live our lives? And second, comparing female fertility to that of a mare? Really? Just... wow.🙄 Whether someone gets married or not is, in my view, a purely personal choice—and frankly, I suspect there are far more married couples wanting children than unmarried ones. Besides, that’s not even the point. Why on earth would you think a child has "better conditions" for development within a marriage versus a domestic partnership?

Oh boy, here we go again with the mindless inquisitions...
Do me a favor and actually look into what an inquisition really was before you chime in next time... There have been plenty of them... and not all were run by the church... they were often carried out by civil authorities...

And honestly, it’s the exact same thing happening today. It isn't the religious folks doing it—it's the ones trying to tear the churches down...

I didn't make a mistake when I pointed out that fertilization works the same way in women as it does in animals, whether through natural means or assisted technology...

At the end of the day, a wedding is just a piece of paper, isn't it? You don't *have* to get married in a church...
And divorce is so easy these days... I guess people just do whatever they feel like...
Do you seriously think artificial insemination works like you just walk in, fill out a form, and—voila?
Give me a break, people. What do you actually view children as? Like little pets.
That guy speaking during the council made a good point—they'd be tossing them around left and right, sometimes naturally, sometimes artificially...

I mean... in both scenarios, the kids are the ones who lose out big time.

Wisdom, knowledge, and intelligence are three very different things.
Casey Palmer5 Casey Palmer5 Regular
470 messages
joined Jan 2016
#56 ·
This law exclusively hurts women—physically and health-wise. And indirectly, of course, it takes a toll on their partners, their families, and society as a whole.

Beyond the fact that this legislation moves us in the complete opposite direction of the rest of the Western world—forcing women to travel abroad just to access healthier and more standard IVF procedures (and only those who can actually afford it, mind you)—our birth rate is already struggling. But the real issue here is that this law directly jeopardizes women's health and flies in the face of globally recognized medical guidelines for fertility treatments.

Honestly, I’d love to see Milinović go through a few rounds of Gonal f and similar medications...

I truly have no idea which Catholics they’ve forced into IVF against their own religious beliefs, but please, just give the rest of us who aren't religious the freedom to live according to our own values.

If things had been different, and if my dear husband had survived his illness, we would have been forced into this same situation too. It wouldn't be because God didn't grant us children—we definitely had that chance, but we waited until we were financially stable in our early thirties—it would have been because of his primary medical treatment. So, if you believers happen to face a choice between undergoing a treatment that destroys your partner's ability to have children or literally dying... then don't have kids and don't seek IVF. And I doubt most people could even afford a real shot at treatment overseas anyway.

Also, let's stop talking about piles of children left in foster care; there are far more kids needing homes than there are children available for adoption.
feralwolf30 feralwolf30 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2009
#57 ·
slyscout192 said:It’s not like you’re at a grocery store where you can just grab a kid off a shelf whenever you feel like it...

What do you actually think—doesn't a child have a right to both parents?
Do you honestly believe people look at the rights and wishes of the child in these cases, or are they just chasing their own selfish agendas?

If you're that desperate, go get a pet to pamper and obsess over; leave children alone.
Stop trying to turn kids into your little personal accessories...

You're clearly unwell, and frankly, I don't consider your opinion competent enough to warrant a response to my posts.

Anyway, I know this wonderful woman—she's truly incredible. Her doctor told her that because of her health situation, this is her absolute last chance to become a mother; she won't be able to conceive naturally after this. Since she isn't in a relationship, IVF is her only remaining option. She wants this child so deeply, and she would undoubtedly be an amazing mother.
But under this current law, she’s being blocked from doing exactly that.
Is it really possible in this day and age that someone could actually help her achieve this?

I'm asking anyone on this forum with even a shred of brain cells to weigh in—and please, no mindless bickering...
Casey Palmer5 Casey Palmer5 Regular
470 messages
joined Jan 2016
#58 ·
slyscout192 said:Birth control pills are allowed under Church law if they're just used to regulate your cycle so you can track your fertile days and help with conception, but artificial insemination is a completely different story...

That basically means a child could be conceived (if I'm not mistaken) without a husband, unless his sperm is used...

Honey, I really think it might be time to dive a bit deeper into your faith, because clearly, you haven't quite mastered it yet.

The Church actually forbids using birth control pills, and those pills aren't meant for tracking fertile or infertile windows anyway. For that purpose, the Church advocates for the Billingsov method.

I get that you might not know exactly what birth control pills are or how they work—since that's not your field of expertise—but as a practicing Catholic, you really should know which methods the Church permits and which ones it doesn't...
Thomas Roberts9 Thomas Roberts9 Active Member
151 messages
joined Aug 2017
#59 ·
slyscout192 said:But just consider this one possibility if all women struggling with infertility turned to IVF, and if at least 50% of children were conceived through those methods, who would even think about adopting an additional child? I suppose we all dream of experiencing that small miracle within ourselves, yet on the other hand, there are those who are capable of having children but choose to reject them.

I think it is important to recognize that not every woman is wired for adoption. While I personally support it, many others simply aren't, and it isn't just because they want to experience that "miracle" you mentioned, but also because of deep-seated fears regarding what they might receive or concerns about different genetics... it sounds a bit harsh, I know, but most people naturally desire to have their own biological child first.
And there really is no need to take offense when others hold a different perspective. No one was attacking you, yet you found yourself becoming defensive, which seems unnecessary to me. 🤷 It is perfectly fine to share your opinion, but there is no reason for a confrontation. If you support the current legislation, then it doesn't truly affect you since your path involves adoption rather than biological children, so please don't lecture others on how they should feel or which laws they ought to support. Everyone is entitled to their own view.
Personally, I find the law quite distasteful and cannot support it, and it feels wrong to me that a single individual in this country should have the power to dictate the fate of thousands of people (primarily the women battling infertility and their partners)!!!
ruggedcanyon8 ruggedcanyon8 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2009
#60 ·
slyscout192 said:Wisdom, knowledge, and intelligence—they are three very distinct states of being.

Sure—but if you don't mind me saying, based on your posts in this thread, you aren't really demonstrating any of them. Everything you're writing here is just religious fanaticism—nothing more. Ende

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