Proposed bill on IVF regulations

You've got a point, I'm heading to bed... normal people actually have to work for a living tomorrow.

feralwolf30 said:I can't help but feel there might be a touch of masochism running through this entire forum, given how much energy everyone seems to expend debating with fools or wading through those endless, rambling posts when we could be focusing our attention on a much more meaningful discussion regarding that ridiculous new bill.

I find myself in complete agreement; that legislation needs to be overturned immediately.

slyscout192 said:And there we go again with the empty rhetoric... Just because you put something in bold doesn't make it a fact.
What a "brilliant" scientific article this is...
But honestly, none of this actually reflects what the paper says, let alone anything remotely scientific.

Honey, let's be real—if I actually sent you a legitimate scientific paper, would you even be able to wrap your head around it?

That’s why I shared these pieces instead; they're written for regular people to actually understand the issues at hand.

Or do you seriously think an organization like Planned Parenthood, which advocates for women and children, is some kind of anti-Christian group?

Honestly, it's probably best if you just go hunt for a "scientific" article in the Council Voice yourself and leave us alone...

Casey Palmer5 said:Everything you mentioned is out there. But they aren't performing the MPO procedure—my faith won't allow it.

Someone else handles those things. And if they're going to do it—well, they should actually do it right, instead of using American women's health as a testing ground.

Or maybe it doesn't matter if we aren't Catholic? Who's to blame if we chose such an ungodly path...

Personally, I don't feel the need to cling to anything in this life. And if we’re being honest, lately, all I've been clinging to is my widowhood.

Look, as far as I'm concerned, whether you choose assisted reproduction or not is your business—just don't do it without both parents present, and don't do it in a way where the children become mere commodities or nothing more than a reminder of everything else in your lives besides their own individuality.

Because the moment you start "planning" a child instead of welcoming them as a surprise—as a unique human being—they lose their sense of self.

They become little more than robots coming off an assembly line.
A child should be the fruit of love between two people who truly care for one another, not just some random adventure.
A child isn't sandpaper; they are a delicate soul.
And when two people love each other deeply, they choose marriage. For them, assisted reproduction is perfectly fine.
So, really, what's the issue?

Love is the answer to everything.

slyscout192 said:When two people share a tender, deep love, they choose marriage. And for them, assisted reproductive technology is an option.
So, where is the issue here?

Love really does provide the answer to everything.

As I mentioned before, some people simply don't believe in marriage, and you can't exactly stop them from living their lives that way.
It's the same with those who are married; while assisted reproduction is legally available to them, you seem to be consistently overlooking the heavy reality this process imposes—specifically the immense pressure and the profound physical and emotional toll it takes on a woman... and if it doesn't work out, then suddenly, it’s just "too bad" for her.

I think I'll head to bed; there is little point in continuing such a strained conversation.

Look, honey, people don't just wake up one day and decide to go through IVF. It’s almost always an unplanned, difficult circumstance. They end up there because something went wrong—an infection or some other health issue—that took away their ability to conceive naturally.

Don't you think it's much more intimate and beautiful to conceive a child together in your own bed (or wherever works for you!) rather than enduring painful, clinical medical procedures? Honestly, isn't it enough of a burden just dealing with the needles and the discomfort of egg retrieval, only to have the stress of wondering if it will even work?

At the end of the day, those parents love their kids just as much as anyone else would. The only difference is that before their miracle happened, they had to navigate the gauntlet of modern medicine, which can be pretty rough, even if it does get results.

And about your cousin—she was planning for a family, too. When things weren't happening, she sought medical advice, it worked, and now she has her baby. That counts as planning! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If she hadn't tried, maybe she would have looked into adoption or more testing to find the root cause. She's just so happy that those medications did the trick. This wasn't some spiritual intervention; it was purely medical. Without those pills, would it have happened? Maybe, maybe not... But you can't look at a minor medical hiccup like that and claim it's some sign from God that they didn't deserve the gift of parenthood.

Casey Palmer5 said:Honey—let’s be honest here—if I actually sent you a legitimate scientific paper, would you even be able to wrap your head around it?

That's why I sent you those pieces meant for laypeople—they actually address the core issues without all the jargon.

And what, you think an organization like Planned Parenthood—which advocates for women's rights and maternal health—is some kind of anti-religious cult?

Honestly, maybe it’s best if you just find your own "scientific" articles in the Council Voice and leave the rest of us alone.

From where I'm sitting, you all just look like old women who have already lived through your prime and missed out on plenty of opportunities.

Not to mention the disappointment of having mediocre partners who never truly saw you for who you were.

It seems pretty clear to me that it isn't about who you are—it's just that you don't have any reliable partners to lean on. I get it, though; you're alone and looking for some sense of community.

Sure, Milinović screwed up.

He really should have brought in some psychiatrists to evaluate the people applying for IVF when they aren't even married.

Carol Scott98 said:Like I said—some people just don't believe in marriage, and you can't exactly force them to!
It’s the same logic—married couples are allowed access to IVF, but you seem to be stubbornly ignoring all the actual implications this law carries —I'm talking about the sheer pressure, the physical toll, and the psychological strain a woman endures... and then if it doesn't work out—sorry, "not your fault," right?

I'm heading to bed—there's no point in getting worked up over this...

If they don't believe in marriage, why don't they just go for a civil ceremony? Do you actually realize how simple that is? You go to the courthouse, get registered with the state, bring two witnesses, and that's it.
My wife and I could have been those witnesses—no big deal, no signing anything complicated.

You can change your name whenever you feel like it, too.

What exactly is there to "believe" in? It's just paperwork for the records...
You're just lying to yourselves. You seem to believe in the sanctity of marriage more than the people actually entering into it.
That's why you aren't getting married—it isn't a lack of belief, it's fear.

Again, a civil marriage. Done in five minutes flat.

slyscout192 said:I can only observe that this isn't really about you personally; rather, it seems you simply lack a reliable partner to lean on. I understand how difficult it must be to navigate everything while being on your own and needing companionship.

Please refrain from applying your amateur psychology to us.
In much the same way, I might suggest that you are merely acting out of frustration, attempting to soothe your own insecurities through these endless, marathon messages—even though, deep down, you likely realize you aren't actually achieving anything...

Just as you and your wife are navigating the challenges of adoption—specifically knowing exactly what lies ahead—women face similar struggles when trying to conceive. In that sense, you are both facing comparable hurdles.

Hey there, I’m 29 and a widow. Am I an old lady now? Maybe, though I don't quite feel like I belong in that category yet...

The truth is, I don't have anyone to lean on anymore. My dear husband passed away when he was only 32, leaving me behind...

It's a heartbreak I wouldn't wish on anyone else in this world.

slyscout192 said:If people truly don't believe in marriage, then they should just opt for a civil ceremony. Do you even realize how simple that is? You just go to the courthouse, handle the legal paperwork for the state, bring along two witnesses, and that’s it.
My wife and I have acted as witnesses before; there isn't even much signing involved.

You can decide when to separate or which last name to take whenever you feel like it.

There really isn't anything to "believe" in here. It's purely a matter of administrative record...
You're all just lying to yourselves. In many ways, you seem to hold a stronger belief in the sanctity of marriage than those who actually walk down the aisle.
Perhaps the reason you aren't marrying at all is out of fear, rather than a lack of faith.

Again, I'm talking about a legal civil union. Everything is wrapped up in five minutes.

I suppose I'll never be able to find common ground with you.....
Honestly—goodnight... I simply haven't the energy, nor the desire, to try and convince someone who is so stubbornly committed to their own perspective and insists on seeing things only through their own lens... once again.

Casey Palmer5 said:Look, honey, people don't just decide to go through IVF because they have it on their bucket list. Unfortunately, it’s almost always an unplanned, difficult circumstance. They do it because things like inflammation or other medical hurdles have stripped them of the ability to conceive naturally.

Do you honestly think it isn't more beautiful—more intimate—to make a baby in a marriage bed (whether that's in the bedroom, at the kitchen table, or wherever works for them) rather than enduring painful, invasive medical procedures? Don't you think it's enough punishment having someone use needles to extract eggs from your ovaries while you're wide awake, only to then have the added stress of wondering if the procedure will even work?

At the end of the day, these people love each other just as much, and they'll love their children just as deeply as if everything had happened naturally. The only difference is that before this happy moment, they had to navigate the gauntlet of modern medicine—which, let's be honest, often isn't painless, even if it does deliver results.

Planning for a child is exactly what my cousin was doing. It wasn't happening, so she sought medical advice, it worked, and here we are. That counts as planning. There’s nothing wrong with that. If it hadn't worked, or if she had given up, maybe she would have looked into adoption or further testing to find the root cause. But she’s happy because a few pills made the difference. This wasn't some spiritual intervention; it was purely medical. If it weren't for those pills—would it have happened? Maybe, maybe not. You can't take a minor medical issue like that and claim it’s some message from God saying they didn't deserve the gift of parenthood.

Here she goes again... Whether it's inflammation or not, the point is whether they're married or not.
Forget the inflammation.

In my view, it’s better and the only way to do it in bed. Nothing involving needles and cold metal...

If they love each other, why not just get a civil marriage license? Milinović never said they had to have a church wedding.
You all seem more religious than I am.
You all have these rules for your lives, but you're too afraid to actually live by them, so you subconsciously hide behind the excuse of "we don't believe in them"...
You can say what you want. Lies, lies, lies...

I agree that planning is the same thing, but the method matters.

As for my cousin, her business is her own.
I believe she would have traveled to the ends of the earth if it meant getting pregnant.
But.

Her mother left her with her grandmother when she was little and moved to another state with her father. She didn't see her during the war.
Do you really think that might be a psychological trauma or something similar?

And as for messages from God, everyone interprets that for themselves.
Personally, I have no intention of putting my wife through those kinds of treatments either, because I know there is greater joy in God if we welcome a little one.

"Whoever welcomes one of these little ones in my name, welcomes Me."
That’s what Jesus said. Regardless of what he said, my heart feels it and knows it's the right path.

Like I told you, I'm not against medically assisted reproduction; I'm just against doing it outside of marriage.

Outside of a situation established by a legal document—even if there's a prenuptial agreement involved.

Carol Scott98 said:stop trying to play amateur psychologist with us.
I think I can say the same about you—that you're just frustrated, trying to work through your own hang-ups by sending these mile-long manifestos when, deep down, you know you aren't actually getting anywhere...

just as much as you and your wife are struggling with adoption (or rather—knowing exactly what's ahead of you), women struggle with conception. so, really, you're both in the same boat...

nothing is bothering me.
But please, feel free to apply your "expert" psychology to me anytime.

I just really hope that your God doesn't throw any bigger temptations your way than deciding whether or not to attend MPO.

Casey Palmer5 said:Honey, I’m 29 and a widow. Am I an old lady? Maybe—though I don't quite count myself in that category just yet.

Yeah, I have no one left to lean on—my dear husband was laid in the ground at 32.

And honestly, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I am truly sorry for your loss; I honestly don't know what I would do without my wife.
Actually, I'm typing this from her account...

Anyway, it isn't a solution for your child's life purpose to be centered entirely around mourning their father.
That isn't fair to the kid.

Why don't you marry again?
Maybe with someone else, you could have children?

Because if you start now and end up pregnant, who knows if anyone will want to step up?
Don't you see that God might actually be doing you a favor here?

They say a psychologist is only useful as long as you don't get emotionally attached to them.
So, forgive me if I come off a bit cold.

Why not find another husband and simply not have more kids with him?
Who do you think can help you navigate a question like that?

Some kind of authority figure, right?
What if God appeared to you right now and told you that your bond with your late husband is tied to you until death—either yours or His?

And then later, you're forced to look for someone else...
I know that's a lot for you women to handle, but then again, you don't exactly have much higher education...

slyscout192 said:I’m perfectly fine, really.
And please, feel free to direct all that expert psychological insight of yours my way.

I actually happen to be a psychology major.

Oh, please—I’m not even trying to go through the MPO process, let alone actually doing it.

I’m just sharing my thoughts on the whole issue.

Don't waste your breath worrying about whether I'll have a hard time finding a husband. Seriously, I wouldn't be looking for a husband within two months of a funeral...

Carol Scott98 said:I'm studying psychology

You clearly aren't using it—but if you've personally decided that I am, then I must be doing something right, wouldn't you say?

Casey Palmer5 said:Oh, please—I’m not actually participating in any sort of Chicago Symphony Orchestra process here.

I am simply stating my opinion on the matter.

Don't waste your breath trying to figure out if I'll have trouble finding a husband. It's not like I'd be out hunting for a new man just two months after a funeral.

Well, where are you from? Because I actually know someone—a woman around that age—whose husband passed away only two months ago; I was at the funeral myself.

What did her husband do for a living?

At this point, we aren't even really debating the merits of the law itself, but rather seeing who can pile up more—whether they be brilliant or just plain foolish—arguments to tear the other side down. It feels like it’s quietly shifting toward a critique of personal character rather than substance.
Defensive mechanisms have always been the most potent weapon in any debate, and I suppose slyscout192 is a prime example of that. As for me, I think I’ll step back for a moment; my psychologist is on vacation and deserves some peace, so please direct all further inquiries to whoever is on call. 😉