Spain Matchday 27 - April 27, 2008

Jason Campbell70 said:Good grief,😢

Here is a little bit of light reading material for you👍

Did you watch the Grand Prix of Spain?
I assume you did. If so, then you surely noticed that the rear wing is moving. It vibrates and shifts left and right. I honestly couldn't care less about what's causing that movement—whether it’s engine vibrations, oscillations traveling through the suspension, or perhaps some telekinetic ability possessed by someone's pet, I DON'T CARE.

As it stands, any movable aerodynamic component is strictly PROHIBITED under the F1 technical regulations☕

By the way, this movement is even more pronounced on the Red Bull, which is exactly what I warned everyone about back during the discussion regarding the Grand Prix of Bahrain.

What do you mean it's moving...

I didn't notice anything like that anywhere...

And what are we supposed to do now? I am telling you, it isn't moving!!!

And neonharbor18 gave a pretty decent retort to that...

I remember reading some mockery on an overseas forum once regarding movable aerodynamic parts

where some people actually suggested banning engine pistons because they move...
and since they transmit vibrations throughout the entire chassis, then the whole chassis becomes
movable😁

I can guarantee you that when an engine is running, those components near the power unit vibrate intensely on just about any car... and the engine itself vibrates.

But personally, I have noticed that entire cars shift, especially
when they hit the curbs... they vibrate like crazy, and so what are we meant to do about it?

That joke went so far that they actually proposed that Alonso's hand, while he was waving at Scott Speed,
should be classified as a movable aerodynamic device...

Arthur Doyle70, do you remember how much Hamilton's rearview mirror was vibrating
last year in Brazil...

I guarantee you that rearview mirrors (on anyone's car) vibrate more than anything else I've mentioned so far...

neonharbor18 said:It’s all absolute nonsense, if you ask me, and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually decide that the driver's helmet counts as a critical aerodynamic component. At this rate, they'll probably mandate that drivers have to bolt their heads directly onto the chassis just to ensure the car doesn't shift even a single millimeter during a turn.☕
I’m not entirely convinced that would even fall under that specific category, to be honest.🤷I’m not entirely certain on this particular point, but I don't believe we're looking at a wing that features any kind of self-adjusting mechanism, nor is there any real indication that they have the ability to fine-tune that specific add-on on the fly. When you really step back and consider the sheer violence of the forces at play, everything on a car like that is constantly vibrating, and frankly, I'd bet my life that every single component is shifting by several microns throughout the race.☕Honestly, I truly believe that everything needs to be met with some form of consequence, because without accountability, the whole system just falls apart into complete chaos.🙄

Exactly right. 👍

Adjustability is one of those fundamental characteristics that they’ve gone ahead and banned, which is just frankly absurd when you consider how much it actually matters for performance. It's one of those things where you can see exactly what they're trying to do—trying to level the playing field or control costs, I suppose—but in doing so, they're stripping away the very essence of engineering excellence that makes this sport worth watching in the first place. You have these brilliant minds working around the clock to find that tiny edge, that perfect setup, and then the regulators step in and say, "No, you can't touch that," effectively neutering the technical evolution of the cars. It feels less like maintaining fairness and more like a direct assault on innovation itself.

Take a look at Ferrari's flexible floor from last season as a prime example of this.

hollowhawk412 said:but where exactly is it moving...

I haven't noticed any movement at all...

So what's the move now? I'm telling you, nothing is shifting.!!!

And neonharbor18 gave a pretty solid response there...

I remember reading this ridiculous joke on an overseas forum about movable aerodynamic parts

where some guys suggested banning engine pistons since they technically move...
and send vibrations through the entire chassis...so by that logic, the whole chassis is
movable😁

I can tell you for a fact that when an engine is running, those components near the block vibrate like crazy for anyone sitting close enough...it’s just how engines work.

But honestly, I've seen the whole cars shaking, especially
when they hit the curbs...they vibrate like hell, so what are we supposed to do about that?

The mockery went so far that someone actually proposed that Alonso's hand, the one he used to wave at Scott Speed
should be declared a movable aero component...

Arthur Doyle70, do you remember how much Hamilton's rearview mirror was vibrating
last year in Brazil?.

I'd bet anything that rearview mirrors—anyone's, really—vibrate more than anything else we've talked about so far...

Since everything fell apart for him a year ago, I can still recall it vividly.😉

Now, whether rearview mirrors vibrate the most, I wouldn't bet my life on it; maybe there's someone here who actually worked on an F1 chassis and could provide some technical substance instead of just making guarantees. Right now, you sound like you're trying to sell me a side-mirror on late-night TV.

mistybear87 said:Both of you need to chill out!

The FIA has its own specific tests to check the flexibility of wings and other aero components.

All this mindless chatter doesn't mean a thing until the FIA actually declares an engine cover illegal for one reason or another.

Until then, it’s a legal part. I'm tired of hearing this childish bickering over it.
Consider yourselves warned. ☕

I was simply sharing an observation based on several on-board shots from the last two races.😢

Jason Campbell70 said:I am merely presenting an observation based on several onboard camera angles from the last two races.😢

Well then, quit stalling and show us those onboard clips... I haven't seen them anywhere.😕

hollowhawk412 said:Come on, show some of those onboard shots... I haven't seen them anywhere. 😕

Where am I supposed to get them?

I don't have them, and frankly, I have no idea where to find that footage.🤷

I'll Pray to Sep for forgiveness, but I feel I owe an answer here.

Arthur Doyle70 said:Is this evidence actually based on objective engineering standards? Or is it just based on the word of one of the most disorganized and legally ambiguous organizations on the planet?

P.S. And the boss is a neo-Nazi sadomasochist.
🤷

I’m genuinely curious.

I have a suspicion that the people in charge of technical scrutineering were all recruited via Craigslist under the "Miscellaneous" category.

Look, you know as well as I do that there isn't really any room for interpretation during measurements. If the reading falls outside the permitted limits, it's illegal. Period.

And your argument about disorganization doesn't really hold water for one specific reason... any rule that allows for even the slightest bit of wiggle room will eventually be bypassed by someone, one way or another. The only way to prevent that would be for the FIA to hand every team a rigid blueprint and forbid even a millimeter of deviation. But then tell me, would you actually want to watch a Formula race where every single car was identical?☕

Jason Campbell70 said:I was simply sharing an observation based on a few on-board shots I caught during the last two races.😢

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with sharing your own observations, is there? I've always felt that everyone has a unique perspective to offer, and stepping up to voice what you see is perfectly fine by me.
Is it worth getting worked up over? I don't think so. Arguing, being fake, or just outright trolling... none of that is really what this should be about, is it?

On the other hand, if Renault's mass damper is being labeled as a movable aerodynamic device, I find myself wondering why there hasn't been any significant pushback regarding these engine covers yet. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? Or was there perhaps some level of politics at play behind the scenes? ☕

mistybear87 said:I doubt the people in charge of scrutineering were recruited through some random Craigslist "Other" category ad.

You know perfectly well there’s no room for interpretation during technical inspections; if the measurement falls outside the allowed limits, it's illegal, plain and simple.

And that whole argument about things being disorganized or poorly defined doesn't hold water for one reason... any rule that leaves even a tiny bit of wiggle room will eventually be bypassed by someone, sooner or later. The only way to prevent that would be for the FIA to hand every team a blueprint and ban any deviation whatsoever, but then you have to tell me—would you really want to watch Formula 1 if every single car looked and performed exactly the same? ☕

Look, if the FIA sets specific limit values, and someone gets caught because they didn't follow those rules, fine. But from what I've seen over the last few years—and honestly, a long time before that—the FIA tends to hand out penalties based on completely nonsensical or non-existent regulations, assuming they even bother to issue a penalty at all. You saw that entire mess last year when that private war between Dennis and Mosley went public, and we all saw how that played out. On top of that, you've got the head of the FIA openly admitting favoritism toward certain teams and suing news outlets just for expressing an opinion, which is a basic democratic right that he clearly can't grasp, probably because he was raised in such an absolutist environment. It's all just a mess.

And I'd definitely prefer to see more teams actually fighting for a spot on the podium.☕ Besides, everyone can't be identical anyway.

mistybear87 said:sharing what you see is fine
but picking fights or trolling isn't

on the flip side, if they're calling the Renault mass damper a moving aero device, I'm surprised the FIA hasn't jumped on these engine covers yet... unless politics is already at play ☕

Looking at how things went down, Renault managed to dodge a much heavier accusation. It’s all just politics, really ☕

Jason Campbell70 said:Where on earth am I supposed to get those from?

I don't have them, and frankly, I haven't the slightest clue where I would even begin to look for such footage.🤷

I’ll pray to Sep to accept my sincerest apologies here, but I feel it is my duty to respond.

on YT...

you came at me quite aggressively, so I naturally assumed you actually had some hard evidence to back it up...

as far as this particular issue goes, I find myself agreeing with that peasant...

adjustability is the absolute deciding factor if we are going to label something
as a movable aerodynamic component...

Arthur Doyle70 said:Look, when you really sit back and examine the situation, it’s clear that Renault managed to dodge a much more serious accusation this time around, and honestly, it all just smells like pure politics to me.☕

Well, there you have it... honestly, who on earth is going to be able to decipher what you're actually getting at now? 🤷

I noticed the same thing this weekend—that rear wing element moving on Alonso's car.
But I guess that's perfectly legal...

hollowhawk412 said:on YouTube...

You came on pretty strong there, so I figured you actually had some substance to back it up...

It’s just a few clips from both races (Bahrain and Spain). Honestly, I can't be bothered to scour YT looking for them.
Since you clearly weren't paying attention during the last two VNs, don't make the same mistake during VN Turkey.🙂

Arthur Doyle70 said:P.S. My boss is a total neo-Nazi sadomasochist.
🤷

It’s not him. neoNazi. (What would Lak say? "Don't you dare insult my kid!")

From what I've managed to read, the guy’s been trained from day one—old school, hardcore, a total Nazi ragazzi through and through.

hollowhawk412 said:Well, there you go... now nobody’s ever going to be able to tell what you're actually thinking about 🤷

Just ask away; I don't mind explaining myself, even if it feels like a lost cause sometimes.☕

maminho said:

Hey everyone,

maminho, you could have at least checked the current standings, 🙄

http://www.motoplus-web.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2364

Just look at this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRI6tbrApd8

And this too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euApi...eature=related

If you actually bother to read the comments, you'll see people claiming that vibration isn't the same thing as having flexible
aerodynamic components...

I mean, plenty of things on a race car vibrate...

The whole reason flexible wings are banned is because they allow teams to effectively
manipulate downforce on the fly...

But this nonsense and that phantom vibration issue we saw with the R28 have absolutely nothing to do with flexible aerodynamics.

hollowhawk412 said:Check out this video on YT. Worth a look?

It’s pretty obvious here. We're looking at a flexible aero component.
Watch how the car's nose drops at higher speeds, only to lift back up once they hit the brakes and dive into the corner.

hollowhawk412 said:And this phantom vibration issue with the R28? It has absolutely nothing to do with flexible aerodynamics.

Didn't expect us to see eye to eye on this one. Still, you can't deny that Renault and Alonso are a winning combination.🤣

Following video footage like this, the FIA has started issuing warnings regarding Ferrari.
For the next race, Ferrari showed up with a redesigned nose that lacks any lateral movement.

And I’ll say it again: if we're talking about being consistent, I expect to see a similar warning issued to Renault.☕