The Armada

I’ve been chewing on something for a while now and haven't found an answer—I don't personally know any guys from the core Navy fan base, so I'm throwing this out to the forum...

So, Navy fans, Cleveland locals, or anyone else who thinks they have a say in the whole supporter culture thing... if my memory serves, back in the mid-to-late 90s, there was some leftist iconography popping up in the stands among the Navy crowd. I distinctly remember one huge banner featuring a red flag with Che Guevara right in the middle, and another double-pole flag with "everything changes, we stay the same" spray-painted in red (probably a nod to that old letter about the "Cleveland communists"...). There might have been more, but nothing else comes to mind right now—I don't have any old fan gear handy to check, though maybe I'll dig something up when I'm back in the States.

So, what was the deal? Was it just a phase? A joke? Some specific subgroup running with it? Or a genuine attempt at building the first pro-left fan group in America? Anyone know?

Also, I'm curious—why did it stop? Why did everyone just settle into the boring political gray area most US fan groups inhabit nowadays? Even though most groups claim to be "apolitical," you can clearly see the right-wing leaning dominating the visual stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flirt with politics here—I'm strictly against any kind of political ideology in stadiums or arenas—but I think it would've been interesting to have one group with a different vibe than the rest. It adds tension, and honestly, the visual clash would've been pretty cool to watch.

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken, there was also some joke involving Che Guevara from one of the local chapters (maybe the Luz?)

cosmicraven said:so, the Navy, the folks from Cleveland, and everyone else who thinks they can speak for the fans and feel entitled to tell our story... if my memory serves me right, somewhere around the mid-to-maybe partially latter part of the 90s there was this bit of left-leaning iconography popping up in the stands with the Navy...

That was my era, I was really, well, deeply immersed in the stands back then 😁

cosmicraven said:I distinctly remember this one massive banner—a huge flag—with a red flag featuring Che Guevara right in the middle, and then there was this other double-pole flag where someone had spray-painted "everything changes, we are all the same" in red... I think it was probably nodding toward that old letter about the "Cleveland communists"... there might have been more, but I can't recall them all right now... I don't have any fan memorabilia from that time handy—maybe I'll dig something up when I get back home to the States)

So, I wonder, was that just some fad? A bit of trolling? Maybe just a small sub-group doing their own thing? Or was it a genuine attempt to build the only pro-left supporter group in America, or just something else entirely? Does anyone know?

It’s probably best not to lump both flags together, actually... because that big banner you mentioned—there was also a double-pole flag with Che Guevara on it—that was really just a sign that back then, the Navy was split into two distinct currents, left and right... there was even a tiny third group that was obsessed with local independence, like they were pushing for an independent Cleveland state or something... and honestly, that was the most liberal period in the twenty-year history of the group... whereas that "...we are all the same" flag? That was just pure nonsense, a total whim.

cosmicraven said:I’m also curious—why did it all stop? Why did it eventually just melt into that dull, gray political conformity we see in our supporter groups today? Even though most of our groups claim to be "politically neutral," it's pretty obvious from looking at the imagery that the right-wing perspective has completely taken over...

Ahm... and that brings us to the part I really don't like... it started this forced, aggressive way of proving how "patriotic" everyone had to be, a kind of "purging" of the group from any differing opinions, and a silent push to put a single-minded political agenda first... which, in my opinion, was wrong, and it led to all sorts of infighting, intolerance, and basically poisoning the whole group... essentially, a quiet schism happened where the right-wing faction selfishly claimed sole ownership of the Navy name, while anyone with different ideas simply wasn't welcome anymore... and that whole scandal involving the local news just added fuel to the fire, leading to a total breakdown as people drifted from one extreme to the other...

Just my two cents here, mind you—it’s just how I see things—but honestly, the atmosphere in the West standside hasn't really evolved much over the last few years, and a huge part of that comes down to the group's new political direction... and man, what a shame, because there was a time when the West would be absolutely packed even for those low-stakes games in the Relegation League, and the energy felt like we were fighting for a championship title, like back when we beat Detroit 4:1 in '96, and even during our worst seasons, our supporters were being hailed as the best fan base in all of America!!!
Nowadays, unfortunately, some misunderstandings have caused this burst of euphoria to fizzle out, making it hard to get certain people fired up during the weaker matches (which, thank God, isn't an issue for me personally)... look, don't get me wrong, the cheering itself isn't bad, but in my opinion, if certain nonsense hadn't happened, the heart of this group could be so much more powerful today, and the crowd could be way larger, louder, and just better quality... like, five times what it was in the 90s. It's not like some massive progress just naturally occurred on its own...

cosmicraven said:I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to promote flirting with any kind of politics—I'm a hardcore opponent of any political ideology creeping into stadiums or arenas—but I do think it would have been interesting if we had one group with slightly different views than the rest... it always adds that extra charge, and the visual battle between groups would be pretty interesting to watch.

No, no, and definitely no... if you ask me, I'd keep politics as far away from the stands as possible whenever they aren't strictly necessary... back in the 90s, they were needed, and all sorts of mess happened when politics started meddling with sports... nowadays, it's significantly less, mostly scaled down to just regional stuff... today, we should really be uniting against the damage the US Soccer Federation causes with their various moves and statements... but I get the feeling that maybe once or twice, here and there, someone just quietly sings a chant about how the USSF are hacks who ruined the game...

...and what really gets to me is how long it’s been since I’ve heard the West truly roar in unison—you know, like that decisive, overwhelming 4-0 😍 kind of landslide—and honestly, I would give anything just to see that happen again...

Larry Rivera83 said:and that’s where things start going south for me... it turned into this forced obsession with proving how patriotic everyone is, basically "purging" anyone with a different opinion. They just quietly prioritized one single political viewpoint above everything else, which I think was a mistake. It led to all the fighting, the intolerance, and honestly, it just poisoned the group. There was this quiet split where the right-wing crowd selfishly claimed ownership over the Navy name, leaving no room for anyone who thought differently. Then that whole Žilić scandal happened, which just threw gasoline on the fire and caused a total fallout as people bounced from one extreme to the other...

That's pretty much what I figured. Tell me though—do you think the constant nagging from almost every other group calling you guys "un-American" (not even counting the other insults they throw around) is what pushed that specific faction within the Navy to double down? Like, they felt they had to prove they were actually more patriotic than anyone else just to shut people up.

edit: looking at this more from a sociological perspective rather than a die-hard fan angle—if something feels like a provocation, it probably shouldn't have been said in the first place.

Kudos to the individuals out there, but honestly, what is with the nonsense coming from the stands? I don't get why people feel the need to be so mindless. Singing songs that have zero connection to football, bringing up politics, religion, blah blah—that stuff needs to stay outside the stadium. It’s frustrating. Why does soccer have to get infected by all this crap? This place should at least be a sanctuary where you can escape the chaos, cheer from the heart, and just be real. I've witnessed this mess firsthand, and it’s just sad to see how lost people have become. And no, I’m not just talking about the Navy, but everyone involved in this culture...
I sincerely hope things change, but given the era we’re living in, I’m afraid that won't happen anytime soon...👎
God help us...

cosmicraven said:That’s pretty much what I was thinking, but tell me... do you feel like being constantly called "outsiders" by almost every other group—and I won't even list all the names they throw at you—actually pushed certain factions within the Navy to overcompensate? Like, did it create this need to prove everyone wrong by acting even more patriotic or traditional than the rest of the country just to show you belong...

Oh, it definitely had an impact, and probably way more than people realize... I just find it strange because, for the longest time here in the States, people would just laugh off that kind of stuff with a sarcastic clap, treating those insults as nothing more than silly nonsense... but then suddenly, it was like someone flipped a switch and everything went to the extreme... I mean, who are they trying to prove anything to?? Everyone knows the Navy has sent its most dedicated members to defend this country, and everyone knows the group shows up at every single national team game, making their presence felt... honestly, I think they took that whole "proving ourselves" thing way too far, and if you ask me, it wasn't even necessary in the first place...

cosmicraven said:edit: looking at this from a sociological perspective rather than a fan perspective—if something feels like a provocation, it probably shouldn't have been said

Don't worry about it, I can always tell the difference between cheap trash and a thoughtful post👍

Larry Rivera83 said:Honestly, they went way too far with all this "proving" stuff. In my opinion, it wasn't even necessary in the first place.

Yeah, well, the real question is why things started slipping in the first place... I’ve got a theory on that—(I hate dividing things by age, but here we go)—the "old school" fleet that actually fought through the war and paid their dues could handle some provocations from other groups because they knew what was what. They knew the real BBB or Torcida fans (and basically every American citizen, really) knew exactly who those guys were and, more importantly, where they stood when things actually hit the fan. But then, when the younger generation took over the reins in the late 90s, they couldn't deal with constant pressure. Instead, they take the path of least resistance. Now, they try to prove their American identity using that classic, tired method: slapping an "USA" on a banner just to show everyone they're patriotic. It's shallow.

cosmicraven said:Hmm, yeah, I guess the real question is why things started loosening up in the first place... I’ve got this one theory about it—and look, I really don't like splitting things up by generation, but I think I have to here—the "old school" fleet that actually lived through the war and paid their dues to build this country could handle being provoked by other groups because they knew deep down that those provocations were just noise... they knew that the real BBB fans, the die-hard supporters, and honestly every single American citizen knows exactly who the members of that old fleet are, and more importantly, they know exactly where those guys stood when it actually mattered... but then, when the generations started shifting toward the end of the 90s, this "new" fleet takes over the leadership and they just can't seem to deal with constant pressure, so they opt for the path of least resistance instead, trying to prove their American pride through that classic, misguided method of just slapping a flag on a sign to show everyone they belong, which honestly just makes them look like caricatures rather than anything substantial...

That's pretty much it for me ☕
But then again, the silence from the older veterans really adds to the whole situation... there’s really no need for anyone to go out of their way to prove themselves when it comes to stuff like this...

Look, I’m willing to concede that you can find common ground on plenty of topics, but I absolutely cannot wrap my head around this notion that some "younger fleet has seized control of the group." There is such a thing as hierarchy, for heaven's sake, and it functions by flowing from the top down—starting with the veterans at the summit and moving toward the juniors at the base. Now, don't get me wrong, there are certainly plenty of younger folks, say in that 21-to-25 age bracket, who carry their own weight and possess authority, but that influence is strictly confined to their own generational tier or those even younger than them.

Instead of just laughing off these kinds of provocations, your young people feel the need to explain themselves and "prove" something. It’s a shame 🤷

ruggedfalcon30 said:Look, I can agree with some of this, but saying the "younger fleet has taken control" is just wrong. There’s such a thing as hierarchy. It flows from the top down—from the veterans to the rookies. Sure, you’ve got plenty of younger guys, maybe 21 to 25, who have influence, but that authority stays strictly within their own age bracket or younger.

That's a pretty lazy generalization. We all know how things actually work on the ground.

The issue isn't the "old guard" hanging out in the stands. People still respect them and listen to them, but they don't show up to the West Side anymore, let alone travel for those away games that actually matter for your standing in the league.

cosmicraven said:That’s a pretty half-baked theory if you ask me, and anyone paying attention knows the reality on the ground is a completely different story.

The issue isn't even about the "old guard" still sitting in the stands—people still respect them and listen to what they have to say—but the problem is that those guys just don't show up to the West Side anymore, let alone travel to away games, which are actually the most vital matches for maintaining any kind of standing in this country.

It's the truth...
I’d throw one more thing into the mix here, and that would be the internet, or rather, this entire "internet generation" we’re dealing with now; back in the day, the old fleet had their own unique vibe, their own specific culture, much like the legendary groups in cities like Chicago or Philly, but today? It’s all just copy-paste fans who lack any shred of originality, where people spend more time obsessing over what the rival section is posting online than actually listening to their own teammate who isn't some wannabe ultra or hooligan...

As for this whole obsession with being "anti-everything," I honestly can't pinpoint exactly when it all spiraled, but I know one thing—it absolutely infuriated the old guard of the fleet. Those veterans lost far too much in the war to just sit there and watch, and then the younger crowd simply hijacked their struggle. Now? You’ve got people in the stands waving symbols of extremist movements they don't even truly grasp. It’s completely out of hand. What the other fan groups fail to realize is that their little "jokes"—which they dismiss as mere terrace banter—are actually screwing over the local kids. These youths are just desperate to prove themselves to the elders and show the rival gangs that they're true Americans, but they're doing it in the most twisted, destructive way possible.
It’s the exact same story with those "kill the city slicker" type chants. The ultras and hardcore fans don't seem to get that their constant provocations eventually boil over into real violence among the youth—violence that doesn't just stay in the stadium, but spills out onto the streets long after the game is over. These kids are just getting swept up in that "kill" mentality because there isn't a single adult around to explain to them that it's supposed to be nothing more than a game-day provocation.

Edward Hernandez332 said:I’m not sure when this whole nationalist obsession started, but I know it really ticked off the older crowd in the fleet—those guys lost way too much in the war to just sit there and take it.

Look, my take is that the "old guard" didn't react to provocations because they just laughed them off. They didn't feel the need to justify themselves to anyone... they knew exactly who they were. That’s why back then, while they still held their ground, you could actually push through that leftist iconography. Lately? You don't see that kind of stuff happening in the West at all. At least, I haven't noticed—and given my line of work, I usually spot those things immediately.

cosmicraven said:Look, my take is that the "old guard" didn't really react to the provocations—or rather, they reacted with nothing but a smirk because they felt zero need to justify themselves to anyone... they knew exactly who they were and what they stood for.

Oh, they absolutely reacted—and that’s precisely why Zilic got hammered the hardest. The guy showed up at the worst possible moment, right when the entire fleet is fueled by pure hatred for those Mexicans, simply because everyone is pointing fingers and accusing them of being Mexicans from every single angle.

We aren't even talking about the same timeframe here—I’m looking at the period from 10 or 12 years ago. The real shift happened back in the late 90s when any trace of leftist influence just evaporated, making way for the total dominance of right-wing iconography.

cosmicraven said:Look, you and I aren't even talking about the same timeframe here—I’m looking at the period from 10 or 12 years ago. The real shift happened back in the late '90s when any semblance of leftist influence just evaporated, making way for this total dominance of right-wing iconography.

And then there are all the other issues we'd have to tackle...

Edward Hernandez332 said:Regarding all this nationalist fervor, I’m not entirely sure when the shift started, but I do know it deeply angered the older generation of the fleet—those who lost far too much in the war to just sit by. Eventually, the younger crowd simply inherited their struggle, and now you see extremist rhetoric in the stands from kids who don't even grasp the history behind the movements they're shouting about. It’s spiraled completely out of control. What other fan groups fail to realize is that their constant "edgy" antics—which they dismiss as mere stadium banter—are actually wrecking the lives of local youth. These kids are trying to prove themselves to their elders and to rival fanbases by asserting their American identity, but they're doing it through a fundamentally broken lens.
It’s the exact same story with those old, violent slogans targeting rivals. Ultras and hardcore fans don't seem to get that this "tough guy" posturing eventually boils over into violence that spills off the bleachers and onto the streets long after the game ends. These kids are just fully immersed in the "kill" mentality because there isn't a single adult around to explain that it's supposed to be nothing more than a temporary provocation for the match.

Exactly.

What’s the vibe like these days? I mean, how is the situation looking within the fleet regarding the left-wing and right-wing factions? It honestly sounds a bit surreal to me that the stands are just filled with Americans and Catholics...

I remember back a few years ago, seeing neo-Nazis in the stands felt almost normal. I also recall all sorts of conflicting rumors—one person tells me the older fans in the fleet couldn't stand them, while someone else claims they were embraced as fellow nationalists... So, does anyone out there have a clear picture of what things actually looked like four or five years ago?

briskgull4 said:So, what’s the actual vibe right now? I mean, how is the whole situation looking within the fleet when you consider the left versus the right factions? It honestly feels kind of unbelievable to me that the stands are basically just filled with Americans and Catholics...

I think you're misinterpreting things—nobody ever actually said the stands were exclusively made up of Americans and Catholics.

briskgull4 said:I clearly remember a few years back when seeing neo-Nazis in the stands seemed almost totally normal. And then there were all those unverified stories floating around, one day I'd hear how the older folks in the fleet couldn't stand them, and the next I'd hear they were being embraced as fellow nationalists... So, does anyone out there actually have a real picture from maybe 4 or 5 years ago to show me what it was really like?

Neo-Nazis 🙄 ...man, you've gotta be kidding me, one spring they're all shaving their heads and claiming to be skins, and then the next season they've just vanished into thin air... if there are even ten real ones in a city like Cleveland, and they definitely aren't showing up to every single game, then there really isn't much point in wasting our breath on them... for the most part, they don't have any real influence over the group or its right-wing leanings...