John Zorn

That old Zorn take on Nazi Punks was better than the Napalm Death version... especially when you factor in those 25 people at the club screaming FUCK OFF back at them 🙂

So, were there any Zorn fans at the show? I couldn't swing the trip from New York City right now, though for a while there, I was seriously considering going into debt just to make it to this concert. Regardless, there were plenty of folks in attendance from New York City😉.
All this chatter about his fee seems completely pointless to me. The Man is a legend of the downtown scene (whether people admit it or not), so I don't see why he shouldn't want to earn a decent living after decades of playing music that isn't exactly radio-friendly. He has every right to it. As for the talk about exploiting grindcore or whatever image he has, I don't have much to say, and these theories about building a cult of personality are news to me.

How much is David Douglas going to make, and is he looking for a five-star rating? (asking Tyler Grant86)

In any case, I'll definitely be at the Douglas concert; I'm actually more excited for his work. He's released nothing but phenomenal albums over the last five years, and I have high expectations for this latest lineup—I don't expect to be disappointed.

Let me illustrate the difference between John Zorn and David Douglas for you—I’ll tell you about what an American journalist experienced at a festival over in Europe... He approached Zorn for an interview, only to be met with a cold refusal; the guy simply doesn't do interviews. A few minutes later, he runs into David Douglas. He asks him for the same thing, and Douglas starts explaining that he has to rush backstage because his set starts in fifteen minutes, but he gives his word that they will sit down for the interview after the show.
Now, that journalist—convinced Douglas had just blown him off, albeit more politely—decides to give up on the interview entirely. But once the concert wraps up, there is Douglas, actively searching the hall for the man just so they can finally talk.

Regarding fees: Chris Eckman mentioned to me recently that in Seattle, Zorn is pulling in about $2,000 per gig because nobody is willing to pay him more—everything he does in Europe or Japan is essentially a grind. The same applies to lodging; while he stays in standard three-star hotels in the States without issue, out there he only plays luxury venues. So, who is really winning here?

And yes, Douglas's fee is significantly lower, despite the fact that over the last five years, his status in America has far surpassed Zorn's. In the US, he commands higher fees than Zorn, yet when he plays in Europe, he accepts similar rates and doesn't inflate them by ten or fifteen times, even though he could. It comes down to their fundamental approach: Zorn has evolved into a pure music businessman, whereas David Douglas has proven himself to be a phenomenal musician and a deeply humble man who doesn't insist on those aforementioned five-star accommodations.

I was a hardcore John Zorn fan from the late eighties until about seven or eight years ago. Then, I gradually got the chance to listen to a hell of a lot more music—specifically Japanese music—and it became clear to me that he isn't quite as original as I once believed. That made sense of a statement Roscoe Mitchell made back around '89. It was relayed through a translator back then (I think the current Prime Minister wasn't even around to edit it back then... haha):

"John Zorn today is what Stan Getz was in the fifties. Back then, Getz was stealing from Lee Konitz and knew exactly how to monetize it; today, Zorn cites us (the Art Ensemble of Chicago) and a few others as his influences, when in reality, he is shamelessly copying our ideas and profiting from them."

For years, I dismissed that as the bitter rant of a frustrated, aging musician. Eventually, I realized Roscoe was right...

Wait, am I remembering this right, or was Eugene actually walking around in flip-flops and casual sandals back then? 🤔
Fuck grindcore, that’s just a lifestyle choice. 😁

John Zorn is certainly a savvy businessman who clearly knows how to make a profit.

One could debate his depth and originality as a musician, but there is no denying he has a knack for scouting and selecting incredible collaborators, much like Miles Davis did in his prime...

Personally, I find the likes of AEC, Wadada Leo Smith, David S. Ware, and Anthony Braxton from the old guard, along with newer talents like William Parker, David Douglas, and Mathew Shipp, to be far more musically compelling and unique than Zorn...

The statement made by Roscoe Mitchell regarding Zorn carried certain racial undertones, as Roscoe pointed out that the same white jazz critics who constantly praise Zorn tended to completely overlook the Black musicians of the second wave of the free/avant-garde jazz movement during the transition from the 60s to the 70s. There is some truth to that, as I read once about how Anthony Braxton had to play chess at tournaments just to make ends meet in the seventies, and how AEC eventually moved to Paris because they couldn't even make a living playing their music in a hypocritically democratic America...

Even today, AEC continues to release great records, though perhaps with less radical edge, while the veteran Roscoe recently recorded a masterpiece, Nina to get Ready, which stands out as one of the finest albums on ECM from the nineties...

Larry Ramirez10 said:Whether he’s actually an original musician is up for debate—but there's no denying his ear for talent. He knows how to pick the right collaborators (much like Miles Davis did back in the day).

Bravo... I've drawn parallels between Zorn and Miles on that exact point more times than I can count. It's about how Miles alone knew how to take someone else's ideas, refine them, and essentially monetize them without anyone ever raising an eyebrow.😎

After everything I’ve just read, I think I’m definitely going to have to rethink my stance on Zorn...
Does anyone know who his Japanese influences are? Specifically, which Japanese musicians has Zorn been drawing inspiration from?

Last post was ten years ago, huh? 😁