F1 Imola GP: April 24th @ 3 PM ET

graniteharbor502 said:Given the absolute chaos with the rain, the track drying, all those red flags, and safety cars everywhere, getting points was actually a massive win. If you don't get that, go ahead and draw...

Try drawing this instead...
With the mess of rain, a drying track, constant red flags, and safety cars flying around, Vettel scoring points in that total dumpster fire was a huge achievement...

Your "hero worship" would be just as ridiculous as me praising Vettel’s result in that same race...
Because honestly, pulling anything off in a complete disaster zone like that is a big deal...

But let's be real: it wasn't just pure driver skill. It was mostly just luck because Rick ruined the race for himself and Sainz, and Mick wrecked it for himself and Alonso...
So Vettel basically inherited four spots, plus he somehow managed to jump Magnussen too.
He ended up in 8th, but if those guys ahead hadn't crashed out, he’d have finished 12th or 13th at best...
Which, let's face it, would have been totally irrelevant and nobody would have even noticed...

stormybadger8 said:Perhaps you should try visualizing the situation for a moment...
Given the sheer chaos of the conditions—with the rain falling, the track drying out, and those endless red flags and safety cars popping up—one could argue that Vettel scoring points in that absolute disaster of a Mercedes-Benz car was quite an achievement in its own right...

Comparing your praise to my view would be effectively the same as me praising Vettel's result in that specific race...
Because, when you think about it, achieving anything at all in such a subpar vehicle is indeed a significant feat...

However, one must also acknowledge the reality that this outcome wasn't solely down to the driver's skill, but rather a massive confluence of circumstances, especially since Rick essentially ruined the race for both himself and Sainz, while Mick ended up wrecking things for both himself and Alonso...
Consequently, Vettel essentially gained four positions through luck alone, and by some miracle, he even managed to leapfrog Magnussen.
So, there he is in 8th place, though if those drivers ahead hadn't collided, he likely would have finished 12th or perhaps 13th...
Which, quite frankly, would have been completely inconsequential, and I doubt anyone would have even noticed...

Vettel drove a fantastic race. No one is disputing that. He handled every single shifting condition brilliantly.

James Harris34 said:🙂

Exactly. As the season unfolds, I suspect Perez might actually start pushing Maximilian, provided Horner and the rest of the crew let him.

🤣🤣

James Harris34 said:🙂

You're spot on, totally spot on—honestly, if this season keeps heading in this direction, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Perez starts getting slapped around even more than he already is. MaximilianI mean, sure, that’s only gonna happen if Christian Horner and the rest of the crew actually give him the green light.

Wait, is this some new guy popping up out of nowhere?

stormybadger8 said:Oh, look at those achievements...
You have by far the fastest car on the grid.

Coming from the guy who’s a huge fan of Sebastian Vettel—who grabbed his four titles doing exactly this kind of thing, and then spent years undermining his own reputation by playing games on track.

Richard Walker38 said:Coming from a guy who’s a die-hard fan of Sebastian Vettel—who grabbed his four titles doing exactly this, and then spent the rest of his career tanking his reputation by acting like a total clown on track.

Seriously, what's the issue? 🤔

I was pulling for Vettel back when he was at BMW, long before he ever landed at Red Bull Racing. ☕
To this day, Red Bull Racing remains my favorite team he ever drove for, and honestly, it was the absolute peak of his career...
And for some of those races he put in with Red Bull Racing, I'd value them more than all four of his titles or Lewis Hamilton's 7...

There's actually one tiny little difference between the two of them, and that's the fact that Vettel never actually had a car nearly as dominant as Hamilton's. Not even once. Not even in 2011 when Red Bull Racing was legitimately the class of the field.
Even then, the car wasn't so dominant that someone like Mark Webber could just toy with the competition whenever he felt like it... which the Mečka certainly was.
Let alone 2012, when Lujo actually had the fastest car on the grid by the end.
Honestly, it's an absolute embarrassment that despite having the fastest car, Vettel still took the title that year after battling Fernando Alonso, while Hamilton wasn't even in the conversation...

People love to credit Vettel with having a dominant car, but he didn't have one in any real sense of the word. Maybe 2011 if you're being generous, but definitely not 2013, and certainly not 2012 or 2010.
Then there's the other side: Alonso put in brilliant seasons during those years in a car that barely deserved to be in the top three. That's mostly thanks to Lujo and McLaren totally blowing it, Lotus and Kimi/grozan not even using half the potential that car had, and Webber—despite all the politics, the media whining, and the garage drama—couldn't even snatch points away from Alonso occasionally, let alone Vettel...

Vettel's seasons were more like this...
It's hard to say whether Ferrari was dominant or Red Bull Racing was dominant; one car would be better one race, then the other would be better the next.
But they weren't *so* much better that they could leave direct rivals 30-40 seconds behind or lap everyone else including the podium finishers.
Mercedes, for most of their seasons, was exactly that: a beast that played cat and mouse with everyone. If they hadn't been pushing at 100% from the lights out, you'd be counting the few races where anyone else managed to stay on the same lap as them.

stormybadger8 said:I mean, what kind of absolute junk pile are we even talking about here? It’s just the usual nonsense from the tabloid media, and then you’ve got those naive fans who just swallow everything whole without a second thought. I guess it's just part of the cycle, really. 🤦
I mean, calling the Mercedes-Benz anything other than a high-performance machine is just wrong... it’s definitely not some clunky tractor, that's for sure. Honestly, it wouldn't even surprise me if it turned out to be something else entirely, I guess. I mean, honestly, it’s pretty obvious which one is just hands down the fastest car on the grid right now... I guess you could even say it's not really a debate at all.
I mean, one thing’s pretty much a given at this point—Mercedes-Benz is definitely going to be snatching up maybe one or two wins this season, I guess... it's really just a toss-up as to which driver actually ends up standing on top of that podium first.
I mean, there's really no question about it, honestly. It’s pretty much a given.

The Mercedes is a fast car, I mean, there's no denying that, but honestly? It seems incredibly temperamental to drive right now. It’s just such a finicky beast, you know? But hey, if they can actually get their act together, I guess there's a chance it might even outperform Red Bull Racing or Ferrari once those teams really start settling into their stride. Maybe.
I mean, there’s this one massive downside right now, which is that they're getting absolutely killed by all that bouncing, and I guess that's just straight-up murdering their top speed.
I mean, they’re basically just messing around with the setup at this point since they can't seem to get it right, and honestly, the car is bouncing like crazy no matter what they try. It feels like it's always just a question of whether the bouncing is slightly less violent or if it's going to be absolutely soul-crushing for the driver... I guess it all just comes down to how much it's actually messing with their head.
I mean, honestly, they’ll probably just sort it out eventually, I guess. And then, the second they actually fix whatever's going on, suddenly everyone's going to be acting like the car setup is some kind of magical masterpiece and Mercedes-Benz will magically turn into an absolute rocket ship overnight...

stormybadger8 said:Man, talk about an underwhelming list of achievements... I mean, you look at those stats and it’s just kind of hard to wrap your head around how anyone could call that impressive, I guess. It’s all just a bit much to take in, maybe.
I mean, you’ve pretty much got the fastest car on the grid right now, I guess.Either Ricc absolutely crushes the competition, or he just manages to trip over his own feet and somehow stumbles right into a win... I guess we'll see which one it is. 🙂

Honestly, praising him is kind of like being obsessed with Lewis Hamilton, because, I mean, let's be real—he just managed to land on the podium in every single race he actually finished during that 2014 Mercedes-Benz season, which was basically just riding that absolute beast of a car. 🙂
Look, I’m not saying Max isn't a damn good driver—he definitely is—but if you gave that car to at least 30% of the guys on the grid, they'd probably pull off something decent, maybe even more, I guess. So, when people start throwing around those massive titles like "greatest of all time" or "best ever" or whatever else, it feels a bit much, honestly. It's just hard to fully buy into the hype when the machinery is doing such a heavy lift.

I mean, you should probably just sit down and figure out who you actually are first, I guess. I mean, if you look at the grid right now, there’s really just one car that stands out as being the absolute fastest thing on the track, I guess... just by a mile. Once that’s all over, I guess everything will finally start making sense to you.
😬

Jack Kelly5 said:Maybe try deciding for yourself which car is actually the fastest on the grid first. Then everything else will start making sense.
😬

What's the issue here?

We clearly don't have absolute monsters like the Mercedes-Benz from 2014-2021 this season. We aren't in that era where we know exactly who has a one-second advantage every single weekend. Instead, the top spot keeps shifting...
Right now, it’s just a toss-up between Ferrari and Red Bull Racing depending on the track....

Regardless, it wouldn't even be a massive shock if an Alpine, a McLaren, or even an Alfa Romeo or Mercedes-Benz snatched a pole position and looked like the fastest cars on track for a weekend, only to barely scrape through the first round of qualifying the next one...

I still don't doubt Mercedes-Benz will fix their mess, but clearly, it's taking longer than I thought.
At least based on all the nonsense Toto Wolff has been rambling about lately regarding how they found "several directions" to fix the car. If they've found "several directions," it just means they're still stumbling around in the dark and haven't a clue what the actual root of their problems is...

First off, Red Bull Racing grabbed pole position in 15 out of 18 races during the 2010 season. Secondly, if I remember correctly, Vettel made a few mistakes during the 2010 and 2012 seasons, whereas Lewis Hamilton lost his shot at the 2012 title because his car broke down two or three times at absolutely critical moments—moments where those points would have gone straight to Vettel.

James Harris34 said:First off, Red Bull Racing grabbed pole position in 15 out of 18 races back in 2010. Second, from what I recall, Vettel actually made some mistakes during the 2010 and 2012 seasons. Meanwhile, Hamilton lost his shot at the title in 2012 because his car broke down two or three times at critical moments—moments where those exact points ended up going to Vettel.

Look, there's no debate: the McLaren was easily the fastest car on the grid in 2012. Whatever people feel the need to lie about regarding that, or whatever nonsense they swallowed from the British media, is their business...
But oh, look at that! In that same season, somehow Hamilton walked away with the most PPs (and McLaren, obviously, had them too). Even Button managed to snag one, despite being pretty mediocre in qualifying—though he always made up for it during the actual race...
And wouldn't you know it? That same Button actually pulled off a PP with that McLaren, even though he could barely scrape a decent starting position even when he was driving that monster Brawn 2009...
It’s a total miracle: 2012 saw an insane amount of front-row starts. Seriously, 2012 had by far the highest number of starts from the top two rows. 🙂
The funniest part? Webber finished only 5th in the championship that year. What a shocker, right? And he was driving a dominant car. 🙂

And oh, get this: in his entire career, Button's wins came in the Brawn 2009, the McLaren 2010,2011,2012, and one more in the Honda 2006...
Aside from 2009, most of them happened in 2012 and 2011...

Bottom line: Button basically peaked during the 2011 and 2012 seasons, which were his best years outside of 2009. Though if you look at certain stats, 2012 might have actually been better than 2009. Ridiculous. :boleščinateška:...

You hit the nail on the head with everything you said, except for one massive point: Lewis Hamilton didn't cause those crashes in Germany, Belgium, Valencia, or Brazil. He was just caught up in them. Plus, in Singapore and Abu Dhabi, his car simply gave out while he was leading the race.
So, if you ask me, how can we possibly blame Hamilton for missing out on the title that year?

James Harris34 said:You pretty much nailed everything except the most important part: Lewis Hamilton didn't cause those crashes in Germany, Belgium, Valencia, or Brazil. Plus, his car gave out while he was leading in Singapore and Abu Dhabi.
So, how is Lewis actually at fault for missing the title that year?

He’s at fault using that same flawed logic everyone else gets blamed with...
He had the fastest car, yet he didn't win the title...
And he didn't just miss it; he wasn't even in the fight by the end.

Look, if we don't give other drivers the benefit of the doubt when their engines blow, their cars catch fire, or the hydraulics/alternator goes haywire...
then why on earth would we suddenly start making excuses just for Lewis?
And apparently, when it's him, we stop looking at mechanical failures and start ignoring collisions too because "it wasn't his fault."🙂