Vince Carter vs. LeBron James

Sandra Wilson38 said:Which side are we talking about? 🙂

The New Yorkers? Or maybe the folks from the South? 😂

George Robinson43 said:What on earth are you babbling about?
What exactly constitutes "top tier" in your eyes? Did he secure three silver medals at the Olympics? Was he a World Champion? Did he ever win the Slalom World Cup?
Should we consider him elite just because he finished 4th, 5th, and 6th in the overall World Cup standings over the last three years—given there were only three or five skiers better than him? Is he sitting at number two in the overall rankings right now? Or perhaps because he was the best skier on the planet last year before an injury sidelined him?
What more does he need to accomplish to earn that label from you?

It seems we have fundamentally different definitions of what "top tier" means.
To me, the elite are those who dominate their respective sports. (Think Blanka, Janica, Usain Bolt, Lionel Messi, Michael Jordan, or Balić...)
Ivica simply isn't that. At least, not in my book.

Sandra Wilson38 said:It is honestly hard to believe how united everyone from Tampa (at least on this particular thread) actually is. 😍

🤦
I am exiting this discussion before I drink myself into a stupor. 🙂

Ronald Brooks75 said:It seems we have vastly different definitions of what constitutes a "top tier" athlete.
To my mind, greatness belongs to those who truly rule their respective sports. Think along the lines of Blanka, Janica, Usain Bolt, Lionel Messi, Michael Jordan, or Balić...

🤣 😂

In what way does Balić dominate his field? He hasn't tasted gold since 2004, though he did secure one major trophy with his club team.
Yet, he remains elite, whereas Kostelić does not. It is as clear as day: Balić's silver medals represent true excellence, while Ivica's achievements are merely signs of mediocrity.

Ronald Brooks75 is in a league of his own—the absolute gold standard. But let’s be real: unless you go out and grab an Olympic medal, a World Championship, or a World Cup title, you’re just another face in the crowd.

Good grief...🤣🤣

Sandra Wilson38 said:To Ronald Brooks75, there's only one true elite tier. If you manage to snag an Olympic medal, a World Championship, or a World Cup title in the meantime, you suddenly just become part of the average crowd.

Good heavens...🤣🤣

Think of it like this: Balić is always the runner-up, yet he remains the ultimate outlier. 😁

Was Jelena Ivanisevic ever truly elite? 🤔
Not really. He only held that number two spot on the ATP rankings for a brief moment.

😵

George Robinson43 said:What else would he even need to do to reach that elite, top-tier status?

Just become a guy from Florida, I guess. 🤷

🤣

Sandra Wilson38 said:I honestly can't get over how much everyone from Florida (at least in this thread...) seems to be on the exact same page. 😍

Well, folks from Florida just have a really refined sense of justice, I suppose...

Gerald Rivera17 said:People from Tampa have such a refined sense of justice.

Exactly how it is.🙂

I’ve been digging through the HOO rulebooks lately, and honestly, they’re a total mess.
That’s actually an understatement.
Because according to HOO, Blanka wouldn't even be considered the best, even if she had gone out last year and absolutely crushed all of this:
(I'm exaggerating the numbers here, because the actual count doesn't even matter to HOO)
-On top of one gold at the World Championships, let's say Blanka grabbed 11 silvers and maybe 8 bronzes
-On top of one gold at the European Championships, she adds another 14 golds, 5 silvers, and 6 bronzes to the pile
-She sets a world record by clearing 230 centimeters in the high jump, plus a dozen other world records
-She also goes out and wins 4 Grand Slams in tennis and becomes the number one player in the world
-She becomes a Formula 1 champion
-She takes home 5 bronze medals in alpine skiing at the Olympics and wins the overall World Cup title. Plus, throw in another 27 Olympic bronzes in whatever discipline you want.

If she had won all of that stuff last year, HOO would still claim Ivica was better.
And if Nadal the American were actually American, he wouldn't even crack the top 10 athletes in the US.
I'm not just blowing smoke here, this is just the reality of it (well, except maybe for Nadal. He might sneak into the top 10, but I can't be bothered to do the math).
Too bad...

Honestly, who even gives a damn about HOO?😳

analogowl122 said:I took a deep dive into the HOO rulebooks, and honestly? They’re a total mess.
That's putting it lightly.
Because according to the HOO, Blanka wouldn't even be considered the best, even if she had pulled off all of this on top of her World Gold and European Championships wins last year:
(I'm inflating these numbers on purpose because the actual count doesn't matter to the HOO)
-along with one gold at the World Championships, if Blanka had also grabbed 11 silvers and, say, 8 bronzes
-along with one gold at the European Championships, if she had snatched another 14 golds, 5 silvers, and 6 bronzes
-if she had set a world record by clearing 230 centimeters in the high jump, plus about ten other world records
-if she had also won 4 Grand Slams in tennis and became the number 1 player in the world
-if she were a Formula 1 champion
-if she had won 5 bronze medals in alpine skiing at the Olympics and was also the overall World Cup winner. And let's say she grabbed another 27 bronze medals at the Olympics in whatever discipline you want.

If she had won all of that stuff last year, according to the HOO, Ivica would still come out on top.
And if Rafael Nadal were American, he wouldn't even crack the top 10 greatest athletes in the US.
What I'm saying isn't just me being difficult; it's the plain truth (except maybe regarding Nadal. He might sneak into the top 10, but I can't be bothered to do the math).
Sadly enough.

You wouldn't believe it, but those regulations aren't meant for stuff like this. They're for things like: is one World Gold worth more than two Olympic silvers? Are you a lawyer or something? You're overthinking the fine print.

dustypanther6 said:I wouldn't believe it if I were you, but those rules aren't meant for stuff like this—they're actually for things like: is one World Gold worth more than two Olympic silvers? Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer or something? You're overthinking the fine print too much...

Do you even know which rulebook I'm talking about?
Because I'm looking at the exact one designed for this.
For crying out loud, look at the title:
T H E R U L E S
FOR SELECTING AND ANNOUNCING
THE MOST SUCCESSFUL AMERICAN ATHLETES AND COACHES

Maybe Joško should take a look at Kitzbühel in two weeks and finally see what a real powerhouse looks like.😁

analogowl122 said:Do you even know which rulebook I'm talking about?
Because I am referring to the exact set of rules designed specifically for this purpose.
I mean, for God's sake, look at the title:
T H E R U L E S
FOR SELECTING AND ANNOUNCING
THE MOST SUCCESSFUL AMERICAN ATHLETES AND COACHES

To put it in terms of some low-rent local news station, these regulations aren't meant for hyper-specific edge cases like this; they're for probable scenarios, like say, 2 silver medals versus 1 World Gold.

Sandra Wilson38 said:I completely agree with analogowl122. A massive injustice was done to Blanka's coach—whoever he actually is. 😁She was clearly the superior athlete last year compared to Ivica. It’s frankly embarrassing how she...HHO took the theories—assuming they even had any—during the award ceremony.. 👎

Incorrect. Ivica competes in every single alpine discipline—slalom, giant slalom, downhill, super-G, combined, and parallel slalom—whereas Blanka only enters one.
Grouping all skiing disciplines together is foolish. Alpine skiing stands alone with its own specific disciplines, much like track and field.
I could easily argue that any ball sport belongs to the exact same category. 🤷

Perhaps two Olympic golds?

Grace Adams32 said:Kudos to both Blanka and Ivica. 🙏

I side with Gips. For years now, Joško has been hunting for excuses to tear others down just to elevate himself. Kostelić shouldn't have let himself get provoked; it’s honestly pathetic.

My reasoning for Gips is simple: winning a slalom in the World Cup is a far greater achievement than winning a Diamond League meet. In slalom, you're facing 15 to 20 athletes capable of winning any given race. In a meet, you have maybe 8 to 10 jumpers, where five can clear 195, leaving only three real contenders for the win.
The argument about the number of federation members being proof of stronger competition is completely irrelevant. If you look at Ivica, he faces 4 or 5 top competitors from places like Austria or Italy. As for Blanka, aside from a few girls from the former USSR, plus Friedrich, DiMartino, Green, Beitie, and a couple of American women, there isn't much else. That narrows her field of competition down to about ten or fifteen people globally.
Ivica competes in five disciplines; Blanka competes in one. Skiing's slalom and downhill are comparable to the javelin and the 5000 meters in track and field.
Ivica has likely had surgery on both knees to fix everything possible, and his back needs constant work. Blanka, aside from a shin issue, hasn't dealt with anything major. Skiing is Spartan. You're constantly on a mountain, dealing with sub-zero temperatures and wind. In track, the biggest complaint is usually a "harder surface" at the stadium or if it's "cold"—meaning anything under 70°F.

That is my perception of the situation, and I judge based on that. It doesn't mean I'm right.

👍👍

analogowl122 said:That choice is available if you want it.
Essentially, the selection for greatest athlete, regardless of anything else.
The list stands as follows:
1. Rafael Nadal (Spain / tennis) 179 points
2. Sebastian Vettel (Germany / Formula 1) 155
3. Blanka Vlašić (USA / athletics) 114
4. Marit Bjørgen (Norway / cross-country skiing) 93
5. Andres Iniesta (Spain / soccer) 85
6. Xavi Hernandez (Spain / soccer) 81
7. Christophe Lemaitre (France / athletics) 62
8. Caroline Wozniacki (Denmark / tennis) 51
9. Simon Ammann (Switzerland / ski jumping) 46
10. Sebastian Loeb (France / rally) 45
11. Wesley Sneijder (Netherlands / soccer) 35
12. Kim Clijsters (Belgium / tennis) 25
13. Andreas Thordkildsen (Norway / athletics) 23
14. Carlo Janko (Switzerland / alpine skiing) 18
14. Maria Riesch (Germany / alpine skiing) 18...

Meaning, Blanka is the 3rd best athlete in the US, gender aside. And the top female athlete.
The best alpine skiers barely make 14th place. With far fewer points. Likely earned on home soil, too.
Marit Bjørgen holds three Olympic medals—gold, silver, and bronze—yet she still trails Blanka.
Ivica isn't even on the list.
This speaks volumes about the popularity and significance of certain sports.

This table is somewhat questionable.
Considering how little the nation engages with Formula 1, seeing Vettel sitting high at number two on this list is odd.
These rankings simply reflect the popularity of a specific sport. That explains why there are three soccer players in the top eleven, and a driver ranked second, when we all know his success depends mostly on his crew and whether his car actually survives the race.

George Robinson43 said:HOO responded to Vlašić.

Olympic silver > World Gold.

That's all there is to it.

In my view, an Olympic medal carries more weight than a World Championship medal. It's basic math: the Olympics happen once every four years, while the World Championships occur annually.
There’s a reason people say it's every athlete's dream ucestvovati at the Olympics, let alone standing on the podium.
Looking strictly at the numbers, if an athlete stays at the top of their game for a decade, they might get lucky enough to attend three Olympics, whereas they could potentially attend 7 World Championships in that same span.
Consequently, a world medal is statistically easier to obtain than an Olympic one.