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Why are atheism and agnosticism in the Religion PDF?

Started by Roger Barrett2 · · 👁 5 views · 33 replies

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Participants Roger Barrett2hollowwolf9Charles HowardPatrick Wright2Henry WilliamsBrenda Cook4steeleagle2Chris Peterson53steelskipper5Anthony Perez9feralpilot0Jamie Reyes73Jeremy Young19Steven Clark2hollowtrucker77rowdyhawk10
Roger Barrett2 Roger Barrett2 MemberOP
33 messages
joined May 2010
#1 ·
Why are atheism and agnosticism even in this "Religion" PDF?

The PDF titled "Religion - Institutional Belief as a Key Component" includes sections on atheism and agnosticism. It makes me wonder, though—if that's the case, why is the document titled "Religion," especially with that specific emphasis on "institutional belief"?

I won't even bother getting into the whole debate over the etymology of *religare*. It's a rabbit hole that doesn't really move the needle here.

In "What is Religion and What is its Purpose: A Sociological Approach", Siniša Zrinščak provides two distinct definitions of religion:

a) "Naturally, researchers vary in their answers, but the most obvious is the substantive definition: belief in a supernatural being and the sense of power and strength associated with that being. This sense of power is tied to the concept of the sacred—that which stands in opposition to the profane. Thus, belief in the sacred, or a special relationship with sacred things, is the core of a substantive definition. Because this definition aims for precision, it incorporates institutions, practices, beliefs, language, and symbols into its framework. It seems to hit the mark regarding the essence of religion, specifically through the concept of the sacred, which clearly separates the religious from the everyday, distinguishing what is otherworldly from our mundane existence (p. 26)."

b) "Again, you can find many different functionalist definitions in the literature, but they almost all involve the creation of meaning or identity. The actual content of the belief or practice matters less than the consequences religion has for the individual and society: explaining or justifying natural or social events, creating a sense of meaning or wholeness in life, transcending biological constraints, and so on (p. 27)." (

If you take a look at these two links: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...l_religion.htm
and
http://atheism.about.com/od/religion...definition.htm

you'll see that atheism simply doesn't fit the definition of religion. So, my suggestion is either rename the PDF entirely, or remove atheism and agnosticism since they don't fall under the umbrella of "Religion," let alone "institutional belief."

If the topic doesn't belong under Religion, then just move it over to Philosophy.
hollowwolf9 hollowwolf9 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2010
#2 ·
They could go ahead and create an entire PDF dedicated solely to Atheism. But honestly? I’ll just keep drifting over to the Religion PDF to drop my comments anyway... so really, what's even the point? 🤷
Roger Barrett2 Roger Barrett2 MemberOP
33 messages
joined May 2010
#3 ·
hollowwolf9 said:Sure, they can go ahead and create an Atheism PDF if they want. But I’m still going to show up in the Religion section to weigh in, so honestly, I don't see the point.🤷

I hear you, but there's a distinction to be made. It's one thing for you to comment on religion as an atheist, but it's a completely different matter how atheism or agnosticism actually impacts the Religion discussion. Neither of those qualifies as a religion or an institutional belief system. That’s the point I’m trying to make.
Charles Howard Charles Howard Member
14 messages
joined Jun 2010
#4 ·
Roger Barrett2 said:What are atheism and agnosticism even doing on the Religion PDF?

They just make the PDF more colorful and interesting...😉
Roger Barrett2 Roger Barrett2 MemberOP
33 messages
joined May 2010
#5 ·
Charles Howard said:They're trying to make the PDF look all colorful and fancy...😉

Well, if they're so proud of it, they should probably just change the file name.
hollowwolf9 hollowwolf9 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2010
#6 ·
Charles Howard said:They present us with a more colorful, more prosperous version...😉

And smarter 😉
Patrick Wright2 Patrick Wright2 Active Member
128 messages
joined Mar 2012
#7 ·
It's mostly because you get a ton of agnostics and atheists showing up on the PDF, and since they make up such a massive chunk of the crowd, they really deserve their own dedicated thread.
Charles Howard Charles Howard Member
14 messages
joined Jun 2010
#8 ·
hollowwolf9 said:And certainly more 😉

😂 perhaps, but FUNNIER without a doubt!
Roger Barrett2 Roger Barrett2 MemberOP
33 messages
joined May 2010
#9 ·
Patrick Wright2 said:It’s mainly because we get so many agnostics and atheists popping up on this forum, and since they make up such a large chunk of the crowd, I figured they deserved their own dedicated thread.

That doesn't suddenly turn atheism into a religion, though. Based on the ground rules we've set for this forum, it still doesn't really fit here. Generally speaking, A&A—atheism and agnosticism—falls more under the umbrella of philosophy.
Henry Williams Henry Williams Member
24 messages
joined Sep 2010
#10 ·
hollowwolf9 said:And even smarter 😉

How exactly are atheists making religion any smarter?😕
hollowwolf9 hollowwolf9 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2010
#11 ·
Henry Williams said:How exactly does an atheist make religion any smarter?😕

Through reason and logic, I suppose.
hollowwolf9 hollowwolf9 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2010
#12 ·
Roger Barrett2 said:That still doesn't turn atheism into a religion, does it? Based on the specific parameters laid out in this PDF, it just doesn't fit the criteria here. A&A—atheism and agnosticism—usually fall under the umbrella of philosophy instead.

The PDF really ought to be titled "religion and remain."🤷
Henry Williams Henry Williams Member
24 messages
joined Sep 2010
#13 ·
hollowwolf9 said:Just plain old logic and reason.

Do you honestly think being a believer means you can't be rational?
hollowwolf9 hollowwolf9 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2010
#14 ·
Henry Williams said:Do you honestly believe a believer can't be rational?

It depends on the individual, I suppose...
Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#15 ·
We can't really categorize atheism under philosophy, for instance. It isn't a philosophy in its own right, nor is it a spirituality or an ideology—it's simply, and always, defined by its opposition to theism.

Take this religious forum as an example: religious forums where it’s perfectly standard to see one of the PDF resources titled atheism/agnosticism/humanism
.
*It is actually quite impressive and highly educational to see how they embrace all different belief systems right there on the cover.
Charles Howard Charles Howard Member
14 messages
joined Jun 2010
#16 ·
hollowwolf9 said:It depends on the individual...

🙂 You've been hanging around this PDF for quite a while now and you're still dropping comments like that. Please don't tell me you're basing that on "experience"...😁
Henry Williams Henry Williams Member
24 messages
joined Sep 2010
#17 ·
hollowwolf9 said:It really just depends on the person...

Honestly, most of the believers I've run into around here seem pretty level-headed.
Roger Barrett2 Roger Barrett2 MemberOP
33 messages
joined May 2010
#18 ·
JUST A HEADS-UP: I’m not trying to start a fight about what kind of people atheists or religious folks are. That’s not the point here. The actual question is whether A&A fits the literal definition of "Religion" or not. Let’s try to stay on track and stick to the scope of the discussion.
steeleagle2 steeleagle2 Member
37 messages
joined Dec 2006
#19 ·
What do these agnostics actually think they’re doing? Every time they show up, it’s always the same routine—they act like they're the smartest people in the room, more witty, more enlightened, blah blah blah... Look, you don't have two cents to rub together, let alone half of what you just listed. Let's just get off this subforum already. What a headache... ☕
Roger Barrett2 Roger Barrett2 MemberOP
33 messages
joined May 2010
#20 ·
Brenda Cook4 said:I don't think we can just lump atheism in under the umbrella of philosophy. It isn't a philosophy itself, nor is it a spirituality or an ideology/political movement—it’s essentially just a reaction, defined solely by its opposition to theism.

Take a look at this religious discussion board religious forums where it’s perfectly standard for one of the PDF resources to be labeled atheism/agnosticism/humanism

*It’s actually quite impressive and genuinely educational to see how they encompass all these different belief systems right on the cover.*

The final paragraph of this link http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...l_religion.htm points out that being a theist doesn't automatically make you religious, just as being an atheist doesn't mean you belong to a specific creed; for something to truly qualify as a religion, it requires a much broader set of components. Beyond that, I have to say this forum is structured differently than ours—honestly, it's organized incomparably better.

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