marlon said:Punk has gone completely mainstream...
To me, punk has been garbage since its inception. I couldn't care less about the poseurs, the faux-rebellion, the "breaking social taboos," or any of that nonsense. Most punks are, frankly, pretty mediocre musicians. As for what the Zeppelin guys are doing now, I wouldn't know—I don't listen to them. But back in the day, they actually had some decent material for their era. Besides, Jimi Hendrix isn't even close to being on the level of Mike Macalpine or Satriani, yet nobody calls him garbage. He was what he was in his own time. In a historical context, he’s likely one of the most influential, if not the greatest. Personally, I’d only put Satriani ahead of him, even though there’s a whole crowd of guitarists out there who are technically superior. Quality is something that demands effort: talent, inspiration, practice, knowledge... the ability to pull all those elements together. Garbage is just whatever is produced by someone trying to scramble onto a stage and distract an audience without having any actual quality behind it.
Actually, come to think of it... there are bands that aren't exactly technical marvels (take W.A.S.P., for example) and I don't even particularly like their music, yet I still don't dismiss them as garbage just because of some supposed "attitude." It's an undefinable concept. If I say something is good, it's good; everything else is just shit, or total garbage. 😛
Bryan Barrett said:Are you actually serious right now? You can't possibly be suggesting that Darkthrone holds any kind of legitimate standing in this conversation. 👍.
Who exactly are we talking about here? 🙂
So, I have to ask—is Let 3 just total nonsense?
Pretty decent. Actors. 👎 They lack any real substance, so they have no choice but to overcompensate with all that posturing just to make sure anyone actually notices they exist. 🙂
diadora said:Just because something is trendy now doesn't mean it will be in ten years—does that stop it from being cheesy?
Exactly. Except rock usually has a shelf life of about 15 to 20 years; then, the cheese undergoes a cool, ironic indie revival and suddenly stops being cheesy. 😁
Bill, "Tazi-Tazi" is the textbook definition of HEAVY cheese. But it works once you have that cool indie sense of irony... 😁 😁 😁
Looks like I mixed things up a bit. That Zeppelin comment was actually directed at Tufir. My bad, Alexander Parker69. hollowseal33 - Look, Dada is an absolute legend to us, but to those aging rockers who used to run the show back in the day, he doesn't mean much. This might sound a little sacrilegious, but hear me out: we have plenty of incredibly talented, skilled musicians like Dada and his crew, but in the cutthroat global market—especially in places like the US or the UK where "rock" is practically a manufactured industry—that talent doesn't carry much weight. They have endless amounts of people just like that over there. In my opinion, that’s exactly why an older Robert Plant wouldn't pick our local legends to open for him. You can't sell lukewarm water, but you can definitely sell lemonade... Bryan Barrett - There aren't many bands that started out as avant-garde or progressive pioneers only to eventually morph into mainstream acts that might be considered... well, total trash. The Rolling Stones were a revolution in the 60s, so what if they changed? They've earned the right to have hits like "Angie." Back when those bands were creatively firing on all cylinders, they had the guts, the style, and the originality to shape trends and define culture. Objectively speaking, the Stones haven't had a hit quite like their 60s stuff for about 20 years now; they're basically old as sea turtles, riding high on massive egos and nostalgia, but I don't think that's enough reason to write them off as garbage. Unless you're talking about clones or musical Che Guevaras... Maybe you think everything popular is inherently trash? It feels like there's this whole "avant-garde" movement with an indie scene and DIY production trying to wage some kind of cultural war or holy crusade. I don't buy into that nonsense, but I do recognize there are certain bands (which I assume fit your definition of "progressive") that actually know how to shred. No argument there. It only becomes an issue once they lose that cult status and turn into something questionable, much like the big names like Zeppelin.. Basically: Period. Bands like The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Dire Straits, U2, AC/DC, Eric Clapton, ZZ Top, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Iron Maiden, R.E.M., and even Queen and KISS (I could go on forever) absolutely rip—or used to rip. They are musically, instrumentally, and collectively competent, which is the most important thing to me when defining a band that "rocks." I really shouldn't have to try and find an American equivalent for our local scene... I'm not sure what your definition of "progressive" even is (honestly, that outdated, prehistoric label is starting to grate on me). Are you talking about that tired stereotype of shredded guitars, long-haired guys flailing around, 35-minute solos, murdering amplifiers, and weirdly pretentious ideological or existential rambling, all wrapped up in a "lovable junkie" aesthetic?
marlon said:hollowseal33 - Look, Dada is an absolute legend to us, but to those aging rock stars who used to run the scene, he doesn't mean much. It might sound controversial, but we have plenty of talented, highly skilled musicians like Dada, but in the cutthroat global market—especially in the US or the UK where rock was practically invented—that doesn't carry much weight. They have countless musicians just like him over there. In my opinion, that’s exactly why an old-timer like Robert Plant wouldn't pick our local legend to open for him. You can't sell hot water, but you can definitely sell lemonade...
I don't know what you think my angle is, but the whole situation just struck me as funny. I'm not some die-hard Dada fan or anything crazy enough to start protesting... it's just a bit ridiculous to me.
Well, okay, now I see you aren't exactly caught up on today's progressive scene. To me, progressive (or just "prog") is an entire genre in itself, even if the boundaries are pretty blurry. Today's prog/rock/metal players and this current generation of guitarists are anything but:
marlon said:...that whole stereotype about overdriven guitars, bald or long-haired heads flailing around, 35-minute solos, absolute carnage inflicted on amps and guitars, and those weird ideological, sociological, or existential detours—all wrapped up in that classic image of unrepentant junkies and total eccentrics....
Every single band you just listed (The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Dire Straits, U2, AC/DC, Eric Clapton, ZZ Top, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Iron Maiden, R.E.M., and even Queen and KISS) was massive back in their day—and still is. You can't really say the same for bands like Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, Ark, Andromeda, Planet X, Psychotic Waltz, Fates Warning, Shadow Gallery... the list goes on and on... or guitarists like Steve Vai, Satriani, Mike Macalpine, or Petrucci... Honestly, I highly doubt any of them will ever hit the level of popularity of the names you mentioned, let alone become mainstream or achieve that legendary status held by the likes of Led Zeppelin (who probably earned it, too). And look, I'm not saying everything that's popular is garbage; I just wasn't sure what you were getting at. And no, I wouldn't call these other bands "avant-garde" or "cultural revolutionaries." They're just driven by a love for the music, trying out new things, and, like I said, they have an artistic mindset. Money isn't their main motivator in life—though obviously, they need it to survive through their music—it's primarily about the music itself.
Okay, I think I finally get what you were getting at. It’s been a bit tough following this thread, though—my router is acting up and keeps dropping my connection every few minutes, and honestly, I'm feeling too lazy to go through the hassle of a full system reset. So, I can't really dive into the tiny details right now. To be fair, I’m pretty out of the loop when it comes to the specific scene and bands you listed (just a byproduct of getting older), but it’s totally your call to classify them as progressive. They probably are. And hey, there's no reason to deny they rip if that's your vibe. That isn't even the core issue in our little debate. Maybe we just weren't on the same page, but it’s not a big deal if we don't see eye to eye. I'm not going to obsess over it. Out of the names you mentioned, I've listened to a fair amount of Steve Vai, Petrucci, and Vai... No doubt about it, they are world-class instrumentalists and artists with flawless technique, but that's where it ends for me. On their own, those things just don't cut it. To me, it all feels a bit sterile and mechanical—like it's missing heart and soul. It feels like pure instrumental showmanship where the skill is its own reward, but nothing more. This isn't some groundbreaking take of mine either (there was actually an old thread about this once upon a time) I'm not saying this just to be contrarian or because these are the most common complaints about that style of music. It's simply how I feel and how I hear it.
marlon said:Look, I'm not saying this just to be difficult or because I'm repeating the usual complaints people have about certain music. It's just how it hits me, you know? That's just my honest take.
To each their own 👍 , everyone sees things differently. But if you don't want to write off the whole scene as being too sterile or just showing off, you should check out Pain of Salvation. If you ever get the chance—not that I'm forcing it on you—give them a listen. Everything they do just feels so raw and emotional...
Bryan Barrett said:Look, I’m not saying the whole scene is just sterile or all about showing off, but you've gotta check out Pain of Salvation. If you ever get the chance—not trying to force it on you or anything—just listen. It's absolutely raw with emotion...
Yeah, I'll jump in too since everyone's pushing Pain of Salvation 👍 I've only actually heard their latest album, but I'm definitely gonna start digging through the rest.
marlon said:In my last post, I mentioned I’d try my best to check out that new prog scene... including that band, Tool.
I can't be bothered and I don't have the time. There are way too many classics I haven't heard yet, and I need to own all the absolute best ones first. In five years, I'll know which of today's bands actually made the cut, and then I'll listen to them. And whatever, who cares. Whooo cares? I'm not wasting my life listening to second-rate or third-rate bands just to stumble upon something decent. Like Mars Volta—their concert was cool, a fresh sound, a real discovery, but their album isn't worth much to me since there are so many better legends I still need to hear. TIME IS MONEY! So, if you have nothing better to do, go ahead and waste your hours on every single CD. But when you run out of time, you'll regret wasting it on mediocre acts. Blah blah, whatever. I sound like an old man.
...so I wake up one morning, stumble out onto the balcony... still feeling pretty buzzed from the night before, you know? I take a look at the first stake in the yard, and there’s Ivana Kindl’s head impaled right on top. mmm, such a refreshing view compared to the little display I’ve got going in my guest room—you know, those mummified remains of Boris Novković and Peter Graše posed in doggy style... right next to the stake with Kindl's skull, the embers from the bonfire were still glowing, giving off this lovely aroma of Severina’s collagen and silicone... honestly, seeing that multi-purpose guillotine with the shredded bits of Daniela, Tonči, and Vjekoslava Huljić just put a massive grin on my face. But then, total letdown with the new packaging and the quality of the quicklime; I noticed Paola Valić was still totally recognizable by that vacant, cow-like stare of hers... my pet lizard, Mishko, was wandering around her corpse, with little Mate's legs sticking out of his mouth... then the phone rings... it's my old pal Dr. Lecter... says that certain Jacques Houdek guy ended up being a bit too fatty after all...
I honestly couldn't care less if someone decides my taste in music is trash. I listen to what I love: Elvis Presley, Jay-Z, Outkast, and some classic rock legends. If you want to jump in here and tell me I have zero taste or that my playlist is embarrassing, go ahead—but let's be real, we all had that one phase growing up.
Elizabeth Mendoza43 said:Fleetwood Mac, Elton John, Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, The Police, Journey, Chicago. Honestly, I’m just waiting for some smart-ass to jump in here and say "ugh, how tacky" or "you have zero taste," but let's be real—we all grew up listening to this stuff at some point.
Would anyone even believe me if I told them I've actually never listened to any of those artists? Like, seriously. I've heard of them, sure... but why does everyone assume we all share the exact same playlist?
