Sepang Grand Prix - March 30, 2014

steelmaker83 said:Regarding Williams Racing, there are several factors at play. They are undoubtedly quicker than McLaren, and likely ahead of both Ferrari and Force India as well. Unfortunately, they've found themselves stuck right behind McLaren while running that same Mercedes power unit, and to make matters worse, Felipe Massa is the one caught in the middle.

Valtteri Bottas was clearly the faster driver yesterday; while that doesn't guarantee he could have overtaken Jenson Button, he certainly would have been more competitive than Felipe Massa.

So, is it a web of unfortunate circumstances, or simply a collection of unfortunate drivers?

I suspect it's more a matter of unlucky drivers. You have two underperformers, and when one receives an order that the other ignores, you end up with someone who wouldn't even be fit to drive a tire cart on any given weekend.
In this era, where direct team orders are actually permitted, I would have suggested letting Valtteri Bottas attempt to pass the guy, and if he fails by the final lap, then he returns the position.
For handling things that way, I truly respect Brawn GP. That is how you distinguish a real team principal.

I find myself grappling with similar frustrations. I understand we are at the beginning of an era and everything is changing, yet I feel a profound lack of genuine racing action.
During those initial laps, everyone simply settles into their slots, and from there, the monotony takes hold.
Our commentators used to wax poetic about how, midway through a race, drivers would carefully manage their fuel consumption, preserve their engines and tires, maintain strict diets, and stay fit, all in anticipation of a grand finale. But where is that excitement now?
Once again, I am left with perhaps three or four laps of tension or battling before it all dissolves. No one can overtake anyone else unless they have fresh rubber while the car ahead is struggling on some old Tiger Tires.
The only moment of actual passing under DRS was when Sebastian Vettel managed to get past Daniel Ricciardo.

It wasn't even that easy. If he was going to pass him, it would've happened a lap earlier, not just now in lap 4...
Plus, we're talking about the very start of the race on a fresh set of tires. Honestly, you can blame Rosberg for that—he pulled right out of the DRS zone, leaving Daniel Ricciardo stuck without any DRS in that lap.😉

stormybadger8 said:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/3...enalty-points/

Valtteri Bottas, Jules Bianchi, and Kevin Magnussen are all sitting on two points in the driver standings...

What a joke. And then they act surprised when the races turn out to be total snoozefests.

They’re probably just waiting for speed limits and speed bumps to show up, and then we'll be set.

stormybadger8 said:You guys are still missing the most fundamental thing about F1.☕
Catching up isn't the same as pulling ahead.😉
A Valtteri Bottas was actually faster.Just look at how much Jenson Button picked up the pace once they started closing in on him...
And look, even if he was trailing behind Felipe Massa, you have to admit that Valtteri Bottas's lap times weren't actually dropping off that much.😉
I agree... if we're talking about whether Valtteri Bottas stood a chance, he might have had some, but Felipe Massa? He didn't stand a chance at all.

Even if Williams Racing is faster—say, by 0.5 seconds per lap compared to the car ahead—is that really enough to pull off an overtake on its own?
It’s honestly a huge question mark: how would Mercedes even fare if they were sitting right behind Red Bull or Ferrari? Could they actually hold that position?
Does it feel like this year's regulations regarding automatic KERS deployment and reduced wing profiles during DRS have made overtaking much tougher? It seems like you need a significantly larger speed delta now compared to previous seasons just to make a move.

Let’s be real—Sebastian Vettel might have had the pace to keep up with Nico Rosberg, but his chances of actually overtaking him were basically zero.
It’s the exact same story with Fernando Alonso and Daniel Ricciardo out front, and honestly, the same goes for Nico Hulkenberg too...
I don't need much lecturing here. What really matters is anything that provides a genuine edge. Isn't the biggest factor always going to be the massive difference in tire age and degradation?
A tiny gap of 0.200 or 0.300 per lap definitely isn't enough. Is even a full second actually sufficient? It’s questionable.
Let’s be honest, Fernando Alonso didn't just breeze past Nico Hulkenberg like that—especially considering he had a massive advantage of about... what? Is it just me, or is that gap between 1.5 and 2 seconds? Around the track.😉

It really makes you wonder what would have happened if the roles were reversed. I’m honestly not even convinced that someone like Nico Rosberg would have jumped ship from Red Bull Racing to Ferrari that easily just to find himself sitting behind them.

What can you really make of that fuel consumption graphic? You have to wonder how accurate it actually is, considering how questionable those sensors can be. I don't see any other way they'd be calculating the data besides relying entirely on them.😁
If the sensor failed before the race even started, then where on earth did Daniel Ricciardo's fuel consumption numbers come from?
As far as I know, they checked Daniel Ricciardo's fuel flow using the exact same method they used back in Australia.🤣
So, if Daniel Ricciardo had the edge over everyone else back at the Australian Grand Prix, how is it that he doesn't have it this time around? Especially when you consider he's up against Sebastian Vettel and the rest of the crew who actually had functioning sensors? 😵

With Lewis Hamilton behind the wheel, that Mercedes would perform incredibly well—it’s already been proven.
That’s just not true. Based on what you're saying, it sounds like you think every single overtake only happens because of tire degradation or a massive lap time difference. That’s simply not the case. A huge number of overtakes actually happen in the opening laps when everyone is running on essentially the same tire age. If a driver is half a second faster per lap and the car ahead doesn't have DRS, isn't it obvious? If they have the skill and are willing to take the risk, they’re going to make that move—especially on a track like Indianapolis Motor Speedway with two DRS zones.

George Ramos15 said:1. With Lewis Hamilton behind the wheel, that Mercedes would have performed incredibly well—that's a fact.
2. That's just not true. You’re acting like every overtake is solely due to tire degradation or lapping someone. It's flat out wrong. Plenty of overtakes happen in the opening laps when everyone's tires are basically identical. If a driver is half a second faster per lap and the guy ahead doesn't have DRS, if they have the guts and the skill, they’ll make the move on a track like Malaysia with two DRS zones...

Yeah, during those first few laps when the engine is pushed to the limit and nobody's worrying about saving fuel or parts...
But honestly, you can count the overtakes in this race on one hand. And most of them were just the Williams Racing/McLaren guys carving through because they started way further back than they actually belonged on the grid. Don't act surprised that Williams Racing/McLaren are passing Marussia/Caterham/Lotus/Red Bull Racing on track even though Red Bull Racing was already a tough nut to crack...

After that, you've pretty much got nothing left except moves like Fernando Alonso passing Nico Hulkenberg, which wasn't even easy. Even with the tire advantage and being about two seconds faster per lap, Alonso still had to get creative; he couldn't just blast past Hulkenberg in the DRS zone like it was nothing.

And I don't get this "proven" thing regarding Hamilton. What exactly is proven?
Lewis Hamilton hasn't made a single legitimate overtake this season. Literally zero. 😉
Who has he actually overtaken besides lapped cars or people on completely different strategies—you know, drivers who were heading into the pits anyway?🤷

Do you really think anyone is stupid enough to try defending against Hamilton on fresh tires when they know they have to pit in a lap or two?
If you're talking about Hulkenberg, he's not an idiot. He's not going to chase Hamilton and lose a position in the pits just for that. It was five times smarter for him to just let Hamilton by and use the DRS in that exact same lap before hitting the pits.

Patrick Bailey4 said:I had to report this post for trolling. It's like someone walking up to me claiming Luka Modrić is better than Ronaldinho. One is a serious debate, the other is just pure nonsense—straight-up trolling.

EDIT: Lost my quote somehow, this was referring to stormybadger8 and the claim that Ferrari is faster than Red Bull Racing.

Go ahead then, report Stefan too. Shame on him for saying they were somewhere near 🤣

I don't think the gap to Red Bull Racing was that big to be honest...

I think to Mercedes there is a big gap, but with Red Bull Racing and the others we are more or less close to that field, but we need to aim to be on top...

Of course, Ferrari is a total junker as usual, and Red Bull Racing is miles ahead of Ferrari😍.

Maybe Fernando Alonso should just report him right now😬.
http://en.espnf1.com/malaysia/motors...ry/151681.html

It was not possible to challenge the Red Bull Racing...

We compare our traction with the best car, the Red Bull Racing, so maybe the deficit was expected...

We will put a lot of effort into improving the car as soon as possible to get to the level of Mercedes and Red Bull Racing.

Their opinions aren't even matching up; the whining has already started... And Red Bull Racing is just as good as Mercedes😂.

I have a feeling this might be the last shared year at Ferrari...
The real question is whose last year it actually is at Ferrari😬.
Honestly, I’m almost certain that after this season either Alonso leaves or Stefan goes... I highly doubt they'll both still be on the team by the first race of 2015...
If they're smart, they'll get rid of Stefan, but I wouldn't bet on it.😬

stormybadger8 said:In those opening laps when the engine is pushed to the limit and you aren't worried about saving anything...
But honestly, you could count the overtakes in this race on one hand. Most of them were just the Williams Racing and McLaren drivers making moves after starting way further back than they should have. It’s almost a miracle that Williams Racing and McLaren managed to pass Marussia, Caterham, Lotus, or Red Bull Racing on track, especially since Red Bull Racing was already proving to be quite a tough nut to crack...

And then later on, you basically only see overtakes like that move by Fernando Alonso on Nico Hulkenberg, which wasn't even easy. Even with the tire advantage and being about two seconds faster per lap, Fernando still had to get creative instead of just blowing past Nico Hulkenberg in the DRS zone...

Also, I don't really get what part of the Lewis Hamilton situation is supposedly proven?
I mean, Lewis Hamilton hasn't made a single true overtake this season—literally zero.😉
Who has Lewis Hamilton actually overtaken, besides lapped cars or drivers on completely different strategies who were about to pit anyway?🤷

Do you really think anyone is foolish enough to try defending against Lewis Hamilton on fresh tires when they know they have to pit in a lap or two?
If you're talking about Nico Hulkenberg, he isn't crazy enough to chase Lewis Hamilton and lose a position during the pit stops because of it. It would have been five times smarter for him to just let Lewis Hamilton through and use the DRS in that same lap right before pitting.

I was talking about overtaking in the Pirelli era, not specifically this year. Isn't it a bit premature to draw conclusions based on just two races? We're lucky Lewis Hamilton has been around since 2007 and not just since 2014. For those of us watching F1 who want to see wide-open racing, we've seen plenty of overtakes from him. Plenty. But who can he actually overtake right now when he's currently eating his own teammate alive in the best car on the grid? Of course, he's leading. Once Sebastian Vettel gets to the podium—which should happen soon if Renault tunes their engine just a little more, especially with that incredible aerodynamics they seem to have again—you'll start seeing those overtakes.🙂.

For crying out loud, the guy is an F1 champion. It’s never even a question whether he knows how to overtake or can actually pull it off.🤣
Who in their right mind would ever claim they don't know how?😂
We’re talking about this brand-new season and these new cars... so I honestly don't see what anything before 2014 has to do with this at all.

Anyway, based on what we've seen so far, there's roughly 50-60% less overtaking happening compared to the same races last year... and it's not like the other drivers suddenly forgot how to pass people overnight.😉

It’s pretty obvious that dealing with these new cars and the Power Unit is way tougher than it used to be.
On top of that, the whole KERS situation is a mess because the software basically runs the show now instead of the driver. There isn't a button anymore for the driver to decide when, where, or how much KERS to use; the software handles it, and mostly the engineers just tell the driver which mode to set the software to at any given moment.

So basically, you've got almost no KERS left to use for overtaking tactics, the DRS isn't as effective as before, and you end up with exactly this kind of result...

stormybadger8 said:I mean, come on, he’s an F1 World Champion. Is there even a question about whether he knows how to drive or if he can overtake?🤣
Who would actually think it makes sense to claim they don't know?😂
We're talking specifically about this current season and these brand-new cars... so honestly, what does anything that happened before 2014 have to do with any of this?

Based on what we’ve seen so far, overtaking seems to be down by roughly 50-60% compared to the same races last year. It’s not like the other drivers suddenly forgot how to make a move overnight, right?😉

It’s pretty obvious that dealing with these new chassis and Power Units is a whole different beast than it used to be. It's just much harder now, isn't it?
It’s also pretty tricky dealing with KERS these days. Since the software handles most of the heavy lifting now instead of the driver, that old-school manual control is basically gone. There isn't a button anymore where the driver can decide exactly when, where, or how much KERS to deploy. Instead, the software manages the output, and the engineers are usually the ones calling the shots from the pit wall, telling the driver which mode to switch to at specific moments. Isn't it wild how much more automated everything has become?

So, basically, it feels like there’s almost no KERS left to use for overtaking tactics. Between that and the fact that DRS isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, you end up with exactly this kind of result. Is anyone else seeing this?

First off, it’s actually a good thing we aren't dealing with KERS tactical games anymore. Most drivers were just using it defensively whenever they saw a prime overtaking opportunity anyway. As for DRS, I think the changes this year are an improvement; making it more effective is exactly what's needed to boost those overtakes. In my opinion, the real issue lies with engine power. The Mercedes engines are going to breeze past people because they simply have that extra punch. We already saw that play out in Australia, whereas the Renault cars just won't be able to compete like that. It’s pretty straightforward: Sebastian Vettel isn't going to overtake Nico Rosberg if the Renault is weaker. Even if they have the right tires and Vettel manages to catch up to Rosberg, he won't be able to make the move because he lacks the straight-line speed. It is what it is. Of course, the opposite could definitely happen.

George Ramos15 said:First off, it’s probably for the best that we aren't dealing with KERS tactics anymore. Most drivers were just using it defensively whenever they felt like it—basically wherever they had the best shot at defending a position. As for DRS, it’s actually better than last year; they made it more effective specifically to encourage more overtaking. Honestly, I think the real issue here comes down to engine power. The Mercedes engines are going to blow past people because they simply have more grunt. We already saw that play out in Australia, whereas the Renault cars just won't have that kind of juice. It’s pretty simple: Sebastian Vettel isn't going to pass Nico Rosberg if the Renault is weaker. Even if he has the right tires and manages to close the gap to Rosberg, he won't actually get past him because he lacks the straight-line speed. It’s just the reality of the situation. The opposite is definitely possible, though.

So, here's the real question...
And what exactly is supposed to be good about a driver having zero way to defend themselves?
What kind of F1 is this? Seriously, what's the point if the guy behind can just breeze past because the driver in front has already exhausted every possible way to defend?🙄
You punish every little thing just because you can. 🙂 Don't you dare try to defend that driving... It’d be even better if you just snatched the KERS right out of his hands since that was his last Hail Mary, and then maybe throw in a fuel flow restriction for good measure, too.
Honestly, if you see a Mercedes-powered car in your rearview mirror, just get out of the way. Seriously. Move. 😍
Maybe they should just implement a rule where you have to pull over the second the guy behind you gets within one second. Simple. 😍

It’s funny how things work out. We saw Ferrari struggling against Renault, and then we saw Renault having their own issues against Ferrari back in Australia. It's a complete circle.
Mercedes is having some serious issues with their cars—it’s basically McLaren vs. Williams right now.

So, two identical engines and zero overtaking... great.
With all these restrictions on engine output and fuel flow, it looks like everyone’s going to end up at basically the same level by the end of the season. Everyone's stuck in the same boat.
So, we're looking at a gap roughly the size of what Ferrari and Renault have right now. At that point, overtaking wouldn't even be a thing anymore—it would just be a slow-motion parade.🙄

Watch Australia—they’ve only had 29 overtakes this season, and Malaysia might even have fewer (we don't have the data yet). Compare that to last year when the average was 52 per race. That’s practically double.

stormybadger8 said:Look, Australia only saw 29 overtakes this season, and Malaysia might even be lower—we don't have the full data yet. Last year, we were averaging about 52 per race. That's practically double.

Last year, those weird Pirelli tires were a factor too.

But in these last two races, even the Mercedes drivers didn't run into any tire issues at all. 😁

stormybadger8 Asks:
So, I have to wonder... is it actually true?
What’s actually good about a driver having no way to defend themselves?
What kind of F1 racing is this, anyway? It feels like the guy behind can just breeze right past because the driver in front has already used up every possible defensive maneuver in the book. Is that even really racing?🙄
Why do you have to penalize every little thing? Is that really necessary? 🙂 Don't you dare try to defend that driving style... It would be even better if you just snatched the KERS right out of his hands since that was his last real trump card. Of course, why stop there? You might as well throttle his fuel flow too.
Honestly, who cares? If you see a Mercedes-powered car in your rearview mirror, just get out of the way already. 😍
Maybe it’s time they introduced a rule where a driver has to pull over immediately once the car behind them gets within one second? Wouldn't that make things much smoother? 😍

It’s pretty clear we're seeing some friction between teams lately. We saw how much Ferrari struggled against Renault, and then we saw Renault running into similar issues with Ferrari during the Australian Grand Prix. It feels like everyone is fighting everyone else, doesn't it?
It looks like Mercedes is really struggling to find their footing lately, especially when you compare them to how McLaren and Williams Racing are performing. Is anyone else seeing this gap widen?

So, we have two identical engines and no overtaking... what can you really expect?
With all these restrictions on engine performance and fuel flow, isn't it inevitable that everyone ends up on roughly the same level by the end of the season? It looks like we're heading toward total parity.
So, if we look at the current gap between Ferrari/Renault and the leaders, we're talking about a margin so wide that overtaking becomes almost impossible. At this rate, instead of actual racing, we’ll just be watching a parade.🙄

Watch Australia—there have only been 29 overtakes so far this season, and Malaysia might even have fewer (we're still waiting on that data). Compare that to last year, when the average was around 52 overtakes per race. That’s practically double, isn't it?

F1 isn't the only series that needs a little help like this—I mean, IndyCar has their version of "Push to Pass," right? Personally, even though it’s totally artificial, I think DRS is fine. Why not let the driver trailing have an advantage, and then give the leader a chance to reclaim their spot using that same DRS once they've been overtaken? At the end of the day, F1 has been leaning into artificial elements for a long time now anyway.
Let's just wait until around race 8 or 9 of the season before we decide if the racing this year actually has any substance or not.
I'm with you on the penalties—they’re honestly ridiculous. It’s fine to give the guy behind a boost with DRS, but shouldn't the leader actually have a chance to show some teeth, like Schumacher did against Rubens back in 2010?🙂

Jason Campbell70 said:Last year we were dealing with those weird Pirelli tires.

And in these last two races, even the Mercedes drivers didn't run into any tire issues. 😁

You've got a point there...
But honestly, maybe it's not even a bad thing if we get 5 or 10 actual, solid overtakes instead of a bunch of fake, desperate attempts to pass.

George Ramos15 said:I’m with you on the penalties—they’re honestly ridiculous. It's fine to give the guy behind an advantage with DRS, but let the leader actually show some teeth like Schumacher did against Rubens back in 2010.🙂

If I remember correctly, this whole idiocy—where they penalize basically everything under the sun—was introduced back then. After this....

stormybadger8 said:Honestly, maybe it isn't even that bad. If we get 5 to 10 genuine overtakes instead of a massive pile of fake ones, isn't that better?

See?
Even in Malaysia, there weren't tons of overtakes, but almost every single one we saw was actually worth watching.
Switching lines, outside moves, or sequences of overtakes carried through several consecutive corners.

Very little DRS usage, and none of those sudden performance drops from the tires either.

stormybadger8 said:If my memory serves me right, all this nonsense and the general tendency to penalize absolutely everything was introduced right after this...

Right. For stunts like those, they should have handed out life sentences. ☕

Does anyone happen to have some race highlights handy? I ended up missing the whole thing...

stormybadger8 said:If I remember correctly, all this nonsense and the general trend of penalizing every little thing was introduced after this...

Actually, it was introduced earlier, so all this complaining feels a bit ridiculous. If I recall correctly—and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong—Sebastian Vettel was in a similar spot during that race as Fernando Alonso, yet he didn't file a protest. That’s why this whole complaint seems a little pathetic to me...

Valtteri Bottas was absolutely convinced yesterday that he could have overtaken Jenson Button.

We saw a nearly identical conversation last season during this same race, though back then, the main focus was all about Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton.