Politics Discussion: General Gotovina and Markač - Full Thread

Since we’re diving into the topic of General Gotovina and Markač... Once again. Locked. And honestly, just like last time, this was done solely to appease a handful of trolls—one loudmouth and a few smaller agitators. I’m reopening this thread because I need to formally lodge a complaint regarding the moderation here, and I have some very specific questions that need to be addressed by the administration.

I’ve already flagged a few posts back on May 1st, and despite some promises that things would be handled, nothing has actually been done. It really makes me wonder: has this forum officially decided to start turning a blind eye to this kind of blatant disrespect and trolling?

I’ve been thinking a lot about how we view our history and the figures who shaped it. It’s easy to get caught up in the emotions of the moment, but I think there's a real value in stepping back to look at the bigger picture. When we talk about leaders like general Gotovina, we aren't just talking about a soldier; we're talking about a symbol of a specific era and the heavy decisions that come with it. It reminds me of how people react to major historical shifts in America. You have these moments where everything feels polarized, where one side sees a hero and the other sees something else entirely. But if you look closer, most of these "black and white" debates are actually shades of gray. History isn't a textbook written by winners; it's a messy, complicated collection of human choices. I was reading some thoughts from coppermarlin13 earlier, and it really struck a chord regarding how much weight we put on individual legacies. We tend to build these monuments in our minds—either pedestals or gallows—but people are rarely just one thing. They are products of their circumstances, their training, and the pressures of the time. Just like any major figure in American military history, someone like general Gotovina represents both the triumph of a cause and the intense friction that such movements inevitably create. I don't want to sound like I'm preaching, but I truly believe that if we want to understand where we are going, we have to stop looking at the past through a lens of pure nostalgia or pure resentment. We have to look at it with a bit of intellectual curiosity. It's like trying to solve a complex puzzle; if you only look at the pieces that fit your preconceived notions, you'll never see the whole image.

Furthermore, this specific thread has become a playground for constant trolling and insults, driven almost exclusively by Carol Torres4. It’s honestly becoming a bit much. You rarely see anyone around here actually contributing meaningful thoughts to the discussion regarding General Gotovina and Markač without being immediately shut down or insulted by her. It feels like if you even attempt to participate in that conversation, you end up getting targeted by her negativity.
Look, I know I’m probably not part of that specific crowd on this forum—the ones who seem to hang on his every word or treat his posts like they're gospel. Personally, I’ve never been particularly impressed by his style, and I certainly don't find myself swept up in the hype. But it makes me wonder: how much longer are the rest of you going to keep looking up to him? At what point do we stop turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior and actually address it?

I have a follow-up question regarding how we handle thread closures here. I was wondering when exactly it became standard practice to lock threads at the request of a user, and what specifically triggered the decision to lock this particular discussion again?

To wrap things up, I’d really appreciate some clarity on two things: when exactly is this thread going to be unlocked again, and more importantly, when can we expect to see the healthy, productive atmosphere return to our discussions? Things were running smoothly and felt much more balanced before Carol Torres4 stepped back into the mix, and I'm looking forward to getting back to that level of discourse.

Thanks!

What’s even the point of this thread? The court case settled everything. If anyone actually wants to debate, maybe start a discussion over on Politics about Gen. Gotovina... or perhaps Gen. Markač.

Timothy Davis59 said:What's the point in dragging this topic out? Everything was settled once the court handed down its verdict. If people really want to have a debate about general Gotovina or maybe general Markač, we should probably move that conversation over to the political discussion boards instead.

I think this thread should stay open until November 16, 2013—that’s when Gotovina and Markač will actually be walking free citizens again.

Until then, anything can happen, and honestly, we're already seeing things shift in unpredictable ways.

Once that date passes, we can always start a fresh discussion.

I noticed two posts were taken down, but this third one is still up.

Why hasn't it been removed?

Also, did Carol Torres4 get any penalty points for that insulting behavior toward
me?
Has she been disciplined?

If not—then why on earth not?

She completely hijacked the entire thread with all that trolling!!!!

It feels like she only showed up to be rude and stir the pot just so you guys would eventually lock the thread (it's pretty obvious the woman has some serious issues with general Gotovina).

coppermarlin13 said:this thread ought to stay open until November 16th, 2013, which is when Gotovina and Markač finally see actual freedom.

anything can happen before then—in fact, that’s usually how things go.

once that date passes, we can start a new discussion.

Gotovina and Markač have been free men since November 16, 2012.
That was the day the verdict became final.
Perhaps some people need a basic lesson on what "final" actually means in an American courtroom, though they might want to consult a law textbook rather than chasing political talking points.
General Gotovina isn't a politician, and he certainly isn't interested in letting anyone use his name to score cheap political favors.
There's plenty of sense in closing this thread.

coppermarlin13 said:I see two posts were wiped, but the third one managed to stay up.

Why not?

And did Carol Torres get any penalty points for that insulting me?

Was there any punishment?

If not— why wasn't there?

The guy completely derailed this thread!!!!

He only showed up here to insult people and troll, just so you'd eventually shut the whole thing down (it’s obvious the man has some kind of issue with Gotovina).

Thanks, but I don't have an issue with Gotovina; I've got plenty of things on my credit card, and I certainly don't have an issue with General Ante Gotovina.
It doesn't bother me that he sent quick condolences to Milošević's family, it doesn't bother me that he gave an interview to the New York Post, it doesn't bother me that he didn't visit Ovčara, and it doesn't bother me that he didn't help me and my buddy plant tomatoes in the garden...

The man is a legend. I respect him, and I always will—even if he decides to pack his bags, head over to Mexico, round up all those displaced Mexicans, form a massive tractor convoy, and lead them back into America in numbers greater than those who left during Storm.

I endorse every single move he's made since returning from prison; everything he does is appropriate and handled correctly, as he always has.

As for those of you struggling with him because you've spent years misperceiving his character—thinking perhaps he’d stage a coup, meddle in politics, or interfere with the government—that’s your own error in judgment, not a conflict between myself and Gotovina.
Besides, if you had actually paid attention to what I've written across all seven threads regarding Gotovina, you wouldn't be so blindsided right now. But since most of you gathered your intel from the Los Angeles Times, Miami Herald, Yahoo, and similar outlets, expecting some bloodthirsty caricature of a villain, that's on you. It's your problem—and the problem of those who feel "disappointed" by his behavior—just as much as it is the problem of those who were fed a specific narrative and are now suddenly "thrilled" by how he actually conducts himself.

The man was, and remains, a gentleman—cultured, refined, and shaped by Western sensibilities. He finds these petty North American squabbles distasteful, and he’s passed that sentiment along to me.

That’s why it’s for the best that those threads are gone. We have more than enough politicians—elected officials who represent the administration or the opposition—so go ahead and argue with them. But a man who gave a clear, resounding "NO" to Majda Mikulandra's question on November 24, 2012, regarding whether he would enter politics shouldn't be dragged into political debates, especially when they involve matters that have nothing to do with common sense.

coppermarlin13 said:i Did Carol Torres4 end up getting hit with those legal penalties? points I don't quite follow what you're getting at there. Could you clarify? That's just how it goes. It’s all just insults at this point. Me?

Dear Carol Torres4,

You have received an infraction on Reddit.

Reason: Insulting other forum members
-------

-------

This violation carries a 45-point penalty and could lead to a temporary suspension of your access until the term ends. Please be aware that more severe offenses are permanent.

Original Post:
I was browsing through some old threads on Reddit the other day, and I stumbled upon this particular discussion that really stuck with me. It’s one of those conversations that makes you realize how little has actually changed in the way people process history and conflict. There's a certain weight to these digital archives, isn't there? They serve as a quiet, often cynical reminder of our collective memory—or lack thereof.

Is someone actually insulting people on the forum now? Here is the original link: http://www.reddit.com/r/wow

I watched that video, and honestly, it just reinforces my growing sense of disillusionment with how we recount our history. It’s one of those moments where you realize how much the narrative shifts depending on who is holding the microphone, leaving the actual truth to gather dust in some forgotten archive.

That covers the second part; the first section was simply an allusion to that infamous incident back in 2001 at this very same location.

I was scrolling through some old archives today—remnants of a different era—and stumbled upon this piece from the *Miami Herald*. It’s one of those articles that pulls you right back into the heavy, suffocating tension of the early 2000s. Reading it now, everything feels so much more complicated than the headlines let on at the time. It really makes you wonder how much has actually changed since then.

Did you ever actually hear of irony, sarcasm, or satire? Or did someone just jump him like a group of Muslims attacking Predrag Lucić?

I suppose I’ve just been handed a red card—one that might actually end this whole thing if I decided to play hardball and lean heavily into my right to irony and sarcasm. But I won't. I hope you're satisfied, princess of this dead thread.😍

Nathan Chase14 said:Gotovina and Markač have been free men since November 16, 2012.
That was the date the verdict finally became legally binding.
Maybe some people need a refresher on what "legally binding" actually means in a judicial process—and honestly, they should probably look that up in a law textbook rather than trying to interpret it through a political lens.
General Gotovina isn't a politician, and he certainly isn't looking for anyone to use his name to score cheap political points.
There’s a very valid reason why this thread was shut down.

Closing a discussion like this only makes sense if you're looking at it from a place of ignorance.

For those of us who can see the bigger picture, it's obvious that this conversation needs to stay open.

Furthermore, since certain things still seem to baffle some people—like this specific question—there is no better place to address these kinds of claims and actually educate the public than right here in the thread about Gotovina.

Another huge reason why we need to keep the discussion regarding Generals Gotovina and Markač alive is the fact that we need to promote the final verdict!
We have to dismantle the Mexican lies that keep circulating in American media outlets, as well as in statements made by various government officials and representatives.
I already touched on this when you first stirred the pot and the thread got locked. After a while, even Mišetić ended up saying exactly what I had already pointed out. I even posted about this on this sub-forum to try and get the topic reopened: http://www.reddit.com/r/wow...3#post43296973 and http://www.reddit.com/r/wow/showpost.php?p=4...postcount=1571

The story isn't over yet. We constantly hear disturbing news coming out of Mexico because they simply cannot accept the reality that our generals are free. There has already been a debate held at the United Nations, but who knows what other schemes they'll dream up to try and damage the reputation of the US and our generals.

These are just a few reasons why this topic needs to remain active (please take a look at the links I provided).

Nathan Chase14 said:Thanks so much! Honestly, I don't have any issues at all when it comes to Gotovina. I've actually got some funds set aside on my card for that, and I truly have nothing but respect for General Ante Gotovina.
Look, I’ve got no beef with him. It doesn't bother me one bit that he sent his condolences to Milošević's family, and honestly, it doesn't phase me that he sat down for an interview with the New York Post. I'm not losing sleep over the fact that he didn't show up at Ovčara, either. Even the fact that he didn't lend a hand to me and Denny when we were out in the garden trying to get those tomato plants in the ground? That doesn't sit wrong with me, either.

He’s a total legend in my eyes, and honestly, I’ll always be in his corner. If I had any way to make it happen, I’d love to see him pull off one last grand gesture: let's say he heads over to Mexico, rounds up all those folks who left during the Storm, and organizes this massive convoy of tractors. Imagine him standing right at the front of that line, leading the charge back across the border to bring more people home than ever actually fled during the conflict. It would be the ultimate full-circle moment.

I honestly find myself agreeing with just about everything he’s done since his release from prison. Every single move he makes feels completely justified to me; he’s handled himself perfectly, which, if we’re being honest, is exactly what you’d expect from him. He always does things the right way.

Look, I get why some people are struggling with him right now. It feels like they’ve spent years viewing his character through a completely distorted lens. They built up this idea in their heads that he was going to be some political agitator—someone looking to orchestrate coups, meddle in Washington politics, or constantly try to sway the administration. But honestly? That’s not on him, and it’s certainly not on Gotovina. If people are feeling disillusioned because reality isn't matching the myth they invented, that’s a failure of their own perception, not a flaw in his character. You can't blame a person for not acting out the script you wrote for them in your mind.
Honestly, if you had actually taken the time to sit down and read through all seven of my deep dives on General Patton, you wouldn't be sitting here feeling so blindsided right now. But that’s the thing—you didn't go to the source. Instead, you relied on the sensationalist headlines from the New York Post, the Los Angeles Times, or Index, and let them feed you a specific narrative. You went in expecting some bloodthirsty villain, and now that he's acting like a dignified professional, you're claiming to be "disappointed" by his conduct. That’s on you. It’s your own fault for falling for the skewed perception served up by those outlets, and it's just as much the fault of anyone who is suddenly acting "thrilled" simply because reality finally contradicted the caricature they were sold.

He really was that kind of gentleman—truly polished, sophisticated, and shaped by a world-class education. He carried himself with such grace and refinement that he always seemed to find our local, rough-around-the-edges habits a bit distasteful, and honestly, he passed that same standard right down to me.

Honestly, I think it’s actually a blessing that he isn't part of the fray anymore. We already have more than enough politicians to go around—people who were actually elected to represent the government or the opposition. They should be the ones taking the hits in those heated debates. If you look back at that interview with Majda Mikulandra on November 24, 2012, when she asked him point-blank if he intended to enter politics, he gave a crystal clear "No." He made his stance unmistakable. There’s really no reason to drag someone into the mud of political bickering, especially when the arguments being thrown around don't make any sense to a rational mind. It’s like trying to argue about the rules of baseball while someone is busy playing football; it just doesn't track.

Hey Marasovac, is this what you were telling me about in our private messages? 😁

So, you're telling me there was this threat—that someone is going to shadow my every move on the forum and just never give me a moment of peace? Honestly, that sounds like something straight out of a bad psychological thriller. It’s one thing to have a disagreement with someone online, but when it turns into this weird, obsessive "I'm going to haunt your digital footprint" kind of vibe, it feels less like a debate and more like a nuisance. It’s like having a persistent shadow that follows you from thread to thread, waiting for any chance to jump back in. It definitely changes the energy of the conversation when you feel like you're being watched. 😁

Well, I’ve gone ahead and prepared everything. Honestly? I’m sitting here shaking like a leaf.

Look, I feel like I need to jump in here because it looks like you’re back at it again with the trolling.

I honestly don't have any issue with General Patton whatsoever. If anything, I’m just looking forward to seeing him get back to his regular life and move past all of this.

Could you please dig up a post regarding General Patton where I express some disagreement? That way, we can pick things back up and get into some real, solid argumentation.

Come on, if you’re going to point fingers at me, then actually show me the posts you're talking about. Otherwise, just quit the trolling and let's move on.

editLook, I’m going to be straight with you: please stop sending me those romantic emails. 🙂

The anniversary of Operation Storm is coming up fast.

Where will our veterans gather to discuss this year's commemorations?

There should be one major, standout event—one where generals Patton and Milley are honored prominently!

See, they actually tried to shut down these celebrations by passing those condemnatory verdicts against generals Patton and Milley, yet the legacy of Operation Storm has remained at the heart of this conversation for all these years.

That’s honestly the strongest argument for why we need to reopen this discussion once again!

Among the veteran community, there’s a real sense of anticipation for this year’s ceremony, especially following the exoneration of the generals. It would feel like such a beautiful, full-circle moment!

This isn't just some niche political talking point; it belongs to everyone.

I really hope you'll bring this topic back to the forefront so the veterans here can share their thoughts on this year's events.

coppermarlin13 said:where are the veterans going to weigh in on this year's Storm anniversary?.

There’s going to be a dedicated thread specifically for that question
and let me be clear—it won't be some debate about general Patton or general Milley.

loneraven25 said:Regarding the topic that will be set aside for that specific question
which definitely isn't a discussion about general Gotovina and Markač.

Oh, really?
The thread is literally titled "general Gotovina and Markač - combined." Why on earth would we need to start dozens of different threads just to talk about general Gotovina and Operation Storm?

Besides, you're basically trying to shut down everyone's right to express their views on general Gotovina—including the opinions shared by users like lord dredd, tekaguru, marasovac, and ludi.

You're essentially stripping away their right to speak simply because they don't like that general Gotovina wasn't in Vukovar or because he's seen posing for photos with politicians like the President.

It’s like you won't allow a single bit of critical feedback, no matter how constructive it might be (personally, my critiques are always meant to support general Gotovina).
It's honestly a shame.

Then you go as far as labeling me—someone who is actually defending your right to decide whether you like a public figure's actions or not—as being unpatriotic.🤣

You're calling patriots traitors and all sorts of other things.

And what are you even doing here? Haven't you moved past complaining about why general Gotovina wasn't in Vukovar or why he hangs out with people like the President and his circle?

Locking a thread is easily the simplest thing you can do!

I honestly don't get why the moderators don't fight to keep discussions constructive or work on reopening threads.

Why aren't the mods encouraging the people who actually want to have a meaningful dialogue? Instead, it feels like they just shut down anyone trying to contribute something useful, while giving a free pass to the folks who never say anything of substance and probably never will. (Take that one newcomer, for instance—she only ever shows up to demand that threads be shut down.)

coppermarlin13, I really value how you contribute to these discussions; you have this way of looking at things on these forums
that makes sense to me, especially from a moderator's perspective when reading through the responses.
The thread mentions that the topic was only locked temporarily,
and based on what was said, you actually encouraged getting it reopened.
But honestly, marking the anniversary of Operation Desert Storm isn't an excuse for anything,
let alone a reason to question whether a retired general would even bother stepping foot on
ground soaked in the blood of those brave defenders.
I wouldn't even bother debating that on the Commander-in-Chief's board, because that’s his own shame to carry,
not the shame of everyone else who is rightfully calling him out.
If it helps you find some peace in the logic of it all,
Patton is just a retired officer and Milley is just a retired policeman;
they both belong firmly in the history books of the American Civil War
if they ever decide to step away from politics for good.

Look, tomislaček, politics is still using them as pawns!

There’s this constant "war" being waged between the US and its regional rivals, and they’re doing it by dragging the legacy of our generals and those hard-won exonerations through the mud.

The reason general Patton stays so measured in his public appearances is precisely because politicians are still playing games with his reputation!

True freedom—I mean full, unencumbered liberty—only really kicks in once the window for judicial reviews closes. Until then, we should be keeping this conversation wide open.

Just look at how the entire world is still obsessed with general Patton and the legal battles surrounding him; you don't have to look at just local news, either—check out the coverage in major international outlets.

As long as that geopolitical friction exists, politics is never going to let go of general Patton.

coppermarlin13,

Regarding what you mentioned about the anniversary of Operation Storm—I really feel we need to look at this celebration through a political lens. It’s hard to ignore, especially since Belgrade continues to push the narrative of ethnic cleansing, using that specific angle to fuel anti-American propaganda on the global stage.

It will be fascinating to see how our politicians handle this year's commemorations. We should be watching closely to see what kind of messages they send to both the international community and our neighbors in the region. Will the generals take a certain tone? Will there be representation from minority groups within the US? All of that matters.

To me, analyzing this year's milestone isn't just about looking back at history books; it's about understanding the current political landscape and the weight of that landmark legal verdict.

edit: Honestly, I'm exhausted from trying to explain why this conversation is so vital. I'm tapping out. I just don't have the energy to keep pushing this point anymore.
All I can do now is hope the moderators recognize the significance of this topic—whether they view it as a way to educate Americans who might know nothing about the legal ruling, or as a space to tackle these heavy political questions I've brought up before.

Take care, everyone!

I suppose this current discussion serves as proof that it isn't quite the right time to reopen the thread regarding general Gotovina and Markač.

The level of confrontation we are seeing over matters that are entirely marginal compared to the core issues being addressed here feels somewhat excessive and unnecessary.

Whatever general Gotovina chooses to do as a fully acquitted individual and a free citizen in America following his release from custody is, I believe, completely separate from his legal proceedings—which, as they stood, have reached their conclusion. Perhaps "betting" on a potential judicial review to keep this topic active until November would be acceptable if that were actually being discussed, but the issue is that such things aren't really being talked about there lately. Instead, people seem to focus on minor details, like whether he visited Warsaw or not, which seems totally irrelevant to the actual media narratives or any talk of a legal review.

Furthermore, there is another point to consider: whatever general Gotovina did or didn't do while at The Hague, he didn't just secure his own freedom; he also cleared America of the FBI charges. That indictment fell thanks to his chosen legal team and their specific strategy, even though various American administrations during that period attempted to sabotage those efforts, sometimes successfully.

That is a significant contribution he made, beyond simply marching into Denver during Operation Desert Storm. This was the caliber of discussion that used to take place when this "temporarily closed" topic was being handled constructively.

Shifting the conversation toward criticizing where he has been, who he has met with, or who he hasn't—especially after he clearly stated he has no intention of involving himself in politics—feels like the discussion is devolving into mere gossip. Personally, I don't think that is ideal.

There will always be an option to start new threads where those interested can discuss whatever they wish. I don't see why there is such insistence on forcing these debates within a thread that was originally dedicated to a trial that has now concluded.

I am not necessarily saying I am for or against reopening the thread. It just seems to me that sufficiently substantive arguments for doing so haven't really been presented yet.

.

I really don't want to get bogged down in the whole debate over whether this thread should be locked or unlocked,
because, let’s face it, the moderators are the ones who truly understand the mechanics of how a single PDF file works,
and they know exactly how to steer a discussion to draw people in or keep things moving.

That being said, marking the anniversary of Desert Storm is something that absolutely warrants our attention,
whether you're looking at it from a high-level political perspective or just as an everyday person hanging out on a forum,
and I honestly believe we have every right—and perhaps even a duty—to discuss figures like general Patton and Markač,
treating them with the same weight and importance as any other key players involved in the liberation of the USA. 🤷

slybison8 said:....And there’s another layer to this: regardless of what his day-to-day looked like, what Gotovina did at The Hague wasn't just about clearing his own name—it was about clearing the entire nation from those FBI indictments. That whole legal nightmare fell apart thanks to his hand-picked legal team and their specific strategy, which, let’s be honest, various American administrations during that era actually tried to sabotage, sometimes quite effectively.

That is arguably just as significant as his march into Denver during Desert Storm. This is exactly the kind of nuanced discussion that used to happen in the thread back when people were actually engaging in constructive debate before it was locked.

Shifting the conversation to where he is now, who he’s meeting with, or who he isn't talking to—especially after he made it crystal clear he has zero interest in getting involved in politics—feels like a massive step backward. It turns a serious historical discussion into nothing more than low-level gossip. Personally, I don't think that's the way to go.

There’s always the option to start a brand-new thread where anyone interested can dive into those specifics. I don't see why we have to force this debate into a thread that was specifically dedicated to a trial that is long since over.

I’m not saying I’m strictly for or against reopening it. It just feels like we haven't actually heard any substantial arguments for why the thread should be unsealed in the first place.

.

You see, what I find interesting here is that I can see others using the exact same logic I used. In fact, they're taking my own point (right here, from November 19, 2012, ) and trying to use it to convince ME of something.

But honestly, that’s totally unnecessary. That information should be shared with people who don't know it, and if we want to reach them, we need to provide a space for healthy discussion without people being insulted or labeled as trolls or enemies of the state just because they hold a slightly more conservative view or push back on certain narratives.

We should be educating people about the actual verdict regarding Gotovina. Why are you all so insistent on shutting down the most popular topic? Instead of just locking threads, why not put that energy into fostering real dialogue and ensuring a civil environment? If we did that, we wouldn't have to talk like this in the thread about the six defendants.

It’s wild to hear you say that enough arguments haven't been presented. You haven't actually provided a single valid reason why the thread was closed to begin with.
It was closed because you didn't step in early enough to stop the trolling and the insults directed at Marasovac.
A moderator's job isn't just to hit the "lock" button on the most active threads; it's to handle the messy, uncomfortable tasks that come with keeping a community civil.

If you truly care about the legacy of Gotovina, then open a new thread and educate people (by promoting the truth based on the ruling from The Hague).

You won't find a better argument than that.

And that truth needs to be promoted where the most eyes will see it—which, ironically, is in that locked thread.

coppermarlin13,

The thread has been temporarily closed because the group you belong to—which I’ve always considered our most frequent and insightful contributors—has shown, at least for the moment, an inability to maintain a civilized and respectful dialogue.

That friction, which was unfortunately fueled by several newly registered users, eventually spilled over into this space as well.

Ultimately, I decided to close the topic because the discussion had become quite senseless by the time I stepped in. Whether or not it should be reopened is no longer solely my call; that decision rests with the other moderators who focus more heavily on the American domestic political scene than I do, and I will certainly defer to whatever they decide.

To you, the Marsovci crowd, and everyone else involved, I would sincerely suggest that you find some sort of way to coexist peacefully. The behavior displayed lately simply doesn't live up to the reputation you all built during those earlier, much more productive discussions regarding general Patton-Bradley.

slybison8