PDF Law - communication etiquette warnings

Hey everyone, I wanted to lodge a complaint regarding a moderator... I know this isn't technically about the rulebook, but I figured I’d just drop it here rather than starting an entirely new thread.

The moderator, crimsonsailor7, sent me a Direct Message containing the following—let me quote her:

"You can play dumb all you want and keep giving examples..."

Now, that might not seem like a huge deal on its own, but just two posts prior to that, I hadn't even received a formal warning—not a ban, just a heads-up—stating that my "tone" in my posts was off.

The reasoning provided by the moderator for my supposed tone was this:
"Conversations using phrases like: come on, prove it, I'm listening... write back once you actually have some experience, be more specific, etc."

So, essentially, I'm being flagged for saying things like "come on, prove it, I'm listening, be more specific"—phrases I use in a legal discussion where evidence and facts are the whole point—
yet the person issuing the warning decides to tell me I'm "playing dumb."

In my quotes, there isn't a single insult to be found, whereas calling someone "dumb" is clearly derogatory and insulting.

So, I'm wondering... did the moderator make a mistake here? Or is it now acceptable on this forum to tell people "stop playing dumb" without facing any consequences, while phrases like "I'm listening, prove it, be specific" are treated as violations?

Thanks,
Michael Vaughn2

Michael Vaughn2 said:... So, I’m being warned for saying things like "come on, show me the evidence, I'm listening, be specific..."—words I use in legal discussions where actual proof and the law actually matter...

I seem to recall us having a similar back-and-forth via Direct Message not too long ago, so it feels a bit silly to suggest you're confused about this. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with demanding evidence. The issue is that you have a tendency to let a debate spiral into a personal spat between yourself and whoever you're talking to, regardless of whether they know the subject matter or not. You were simply asked to dial down the tension. Besides, there are several deleted comments (and not just yours) that follow this exact pattern, so the admins won't have any trouble verifying the situation.👍

Brian Edwards6 said:I feel like we actually touched on something similar via Direct Message recently, so it seems odd that this isn't clicking for you. Look, asking for proof isn't the issue—it’s just that you have a tendency to turn discussions into personal spats, whether you're talking to someone you know or just a stranger online... and you've been asked to dial back the tension. There are also several deleted comments (not just yours) that followed that same pattern, so the admins can easily verify what I'm saying.👍

What we talked about before doesn't really change the point I'm making here. If there's some lingering issue from that previous conversation that bothers you, feel free to bring it up again.

I honestly don't see where the confusion lies with my question, so I'll just lay it out one more time...

Is it actually acceptable to tell someone they're "playing dumb," considering that's what a moderator is saying? And am I allowed to use a phrase like that in the future without getting flagged?

Is that clear enough for you? thanks.

Michael Vaughn2 said:… We know what happened after the fact—but until it actually happens, we don't know, right?
Or are you suggesting you have some sort of crystal ball that tells you exactly how every single debate is going to spiral?…

We can certainly be skeptical, and frankly, experience usually tells us what to expect.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:… Is it really okay to tell someone they're "playing dumb"...

If you feel a moderator has insulted you via Direct Message, you are more than welcome to report it, and the administration will handle it accordingly.👍

As for using a phrase like "you're playing dumb" during a discussion, there’s no way to predict the outcome beforehand. We can't know ahead of time how a conversation will evolve or how specific wording will land with other users. The phrase itself isn't inherently an insult (at least, I don't view it that way), and it might pass in a casual exchange. However, if the intent is purely to provoke someone, then it becomes inappropriate.👍

P.S.: Since you edited your comment, the quote looks a little different now, but it still perfectly illustrates my point.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:So, I basically got called out for saying stuff like, "Alright, show me the proof, I’m listening, just give me the specifics..." which is wild because I was literally just talking about legal matters where actual evidence and the law are the whole point...
It’s funny how that works... you get someone trying to give you a heads-up, acting like they’re looking out for you, and then out of nowhere they hit you with a "you're playing dumb" line... honestly, it kind of stings when it comes from someone who's supposed to be on your side...

Look, for the hundredth time, we aren't even talking about the specific words you're choosing... it's more about your whole vibe and how you carry yourself here. It might not come across that way in your own head, but honestly, your posts "sound" a certain way to everyone else reading them. And I'm not just nitpicking one single thing you said, either... this has been an ongoing pattern for quite a while now...
What else am I even supposed to say to you besides please stop acting like a total idiot... I feel like I’ve explained this exact same thing fifteen different times now, and you’re still sitting there convinced that the wording is the actual issue... 🤷 Look, I know you’re more than capable of grasping exactly what I’m getting at here, but for some reason, you just seem to be digging your heels in and refusing to see it...

Brian Edwards6 said:We can have our doubts—and honestly, experience often tells us otherwise.👍

If you feel like a moderator crossed the line in a Direct Message, go ahead and report it... the administration will take it from there.👍

As for using a phrase like "you're playing dumb" during a debate—it’s impossible to call that beforehand, really. We never know how a conversation is going to flow or how a specific word might land with other users. The phrase itself isn't inherently offensive (at least, I don't see it that way), and it can pass in a casual chat, but if the whole point is just to bait someone... then it’s out of line.👍

P.S.: Since you edited your comment, the quote looks slightly different now, but it still perfectly illustrates my point...👍

1. We can doubt things, sure, but experience usually teaches us the opposite. In smaller instances, things turned out poorly; in larger ones, they went well. So why assume we'll see the same outcome as those smaller cases?

2. That is exactly what I just did here—reported it. You got an issue with that? I'm not sure why you're telling me to do the very thing I just finished doing...

3. Fair enough. But how are we supposed to know how "be more specific..." is going to end up in any given argument?
There's a much higher chance that "you're playing dumb" gets taken the wrong way compared to "be more specific."

Beyond that, the core issue is how something is sent, not how it's received. That's the foundation of it all.
So, if someone sends "wow, you're so smart" as an insult—that's a sarcastic jab. But that exact same sentence could be sent as a genuine compliment...
Therefore, whether something is an insult doesn't depend on the recipient, but on the sender—whether they intended it as one. That's the key.
Intent matters, not personal interpretation. Intent is singular, while interpretations... well, there can be a hundred of those.

And a question for you... I'm not entirely sure if you're a moderator or just someone whose word carries weight later on? Like, if you say "playing dumb" is allowed, does that count? Does your stance represent the forum's official policy, or are you just another user like me?...

crimsonsailor7 said:For the hundredth time, it’s not about the specific words you choose—it’s about your delivery. Maybe it doesn't come across that way in your own head, but posts have a certain 'tone' to others. And this isn't just about one single post... it's been happening for a while now.
What else am I supposed to say besides stop playing dumb? I've explained the exact same thing to you fifteen times, yet you still insist that the words themselves are the only issue... 🤷 I know you're smart enough to grasp what I'm saying, but for some reason, you're just refusing to...

Look, I'm asking about MY words here. So, is your little "playing dumb" comment actually acceptable?

It’s honestly mind-boggling—you’re telling me my words don't matter, only my "delivery"? What exactly is my delivery? Am I waving my arms around? The only way anyone on this forum can perceive my "delivery" is through the words I type...
So, clearly, the words are all that matters.
It feels a bit ridiculous coming from a moderator to claim that words aren't the point when they're literally the only thing we have here... I don't even use many emojis.

Furthermore, why the dishonesty? Can you actually point to those fifteen instances? Because that's a blatant lie. If you can dig through all your years here and find fifteen separate messages where you've said this to me, I'll pack up my things and leave the forum immediately. But if there aren't fifteen—if there are only fourteen—then you're the one leaving. Deal?

Basically, you're intentionally inflating something that isn't even real (those 15 warnings) just to justify your insult about me "playing dumb."

And finally, regarding how my posts "sound" to everyone else... the only way to actually know that would be a poll.
I'm telling you right now, the majority—well, over 50%—will likely say my posts are fine, and only a small minority will disagree. So, this whole "how it sounds to others" argument only holds water once we see the actual data on how many people feel that way.

One more thing before you reply: am I allowed to tell someone "you're playing dumb" in the future if I've explained something to them fifteen times (even though it's actually much less than fifteen) and they still refuse to get it? Is that allowed then?

Context is everything, honestly, so you can't just say a word is totally fine or completely banned without looking at how it’s actually being used... Like, saying "crap" is one thing, but using it to insult someone is a whole different story. You're kind of digging your heels in about something that doesn't even relate to our conversation, so if I crossed a line or offended you, I really am sorry, that wasn't my intention at all...

Edit: I was actually trying to get back to you on that other post you put up in the meantime, but I'm starting to realize there's just no point... Brian Edwards6 tried to walk you through it, then I tried explaining it myself, and honestly, I don't even know what else to say to help you see where I'm coming from...

Michael Vaughn2 said:... So why on earth would you assume a situation that was minor in scale is going to escalate?...

Based on experience.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:... That’s exactly what I just reported right here. You got a problem with that? I don't see why you're telling me to do something I've already done?...

The issue is that it wasn't reported correctly, nor was it reported in this specific thread. You missed several steps in the process, so I was simply trying to clarify how you ought to have handled it. There really isn't any need for that kind of attitude.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:... Intent matters...

Negligence exists too.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:... And a question regarding you: I'm not sure if you're a moderator or someone whose word carries weight later on? In the sense that if you say something is allowed, does that stick? Or are you just a regular user like me?

Since you're lodging complaints against the moderators, we'll wait for the final decision from administration. What I wrote was merely my own opinion—both personally and in my capacity as a moderator. Regarding your status as a user: if you direct a phrase like "you're playing dumb" at me, I won't take it as an insult, but if you directed it at another user, it would likely be viewed as such (or rather, as a provocation), given your tendency to ramp up the tension in discussions, whether intentionally or not.👍

Speaking from experience... 👍

Well, obviously not. In the few debates I’ve actually had that turned sour, it was much less frequent than the ones that went fine. If we're splitting the difference, let's call it 50/50.

Because that isn't how you report it—not on this thread, anyway. You missed several steps here, so I was just trying to explain the proper way to handle it. There's really no need for that kind of reaction. 👍

You "wanted" to, but you didn't. If I filed the report incorrectly, why wouldn't you just tell me how to do it right? It doesn't exactly feel like your intention was to educate me on the actual procedure if you aren't going to share it... hmm.

There's also the matter of intent. 👍

That isn't a question you can just extract an answer from. The point is, it depends entirely on how it was sent, not how it was received. If you take offense at something that wasn't actually sent as an insult, that's on you. Even basic sociology teaches that what counts is the delivery, not the reception—if you don't believe me, well, that's your call.

Since you're complaining about the mods, we have to wait for a final decision from administration; what I wrote was just my personal and moderator opinion. As for you, saying "you're acting stupid" to me won't be taken as an insult, but if you said that to another user, it probably would be—more like a provocation, really—given your tendency to escalate tensions in discussions, whether you mean to or not.

I don't think I have that "tendency"... 🙂 So where does that leave us?
Let’s just stop you judging my tendencies, because otherwise, you're essentially giving me permission to judge yours. And then we're just spinning our wheels.

Let's drop these "subjective" impressions and stick to the actual words used.
Specifically, "be more specific" can't possibly carry a more negative tone than "you're being stupid."

With "you're being stupid," it's very easy to assume someone will get offended, so a sender might choose to avoid that phrase altogether.

But "be more specific"? It's safe to assume that *won't* offend anyone, which is why I write that way.
If someone chooses to escalate the tension after that and responds with insults, then that's on them, not me.

This whole "escalating tension" argument is exactly how domestic abusers defend themselves.
A husband hits his wife and then claims, "she provoked me."

So the woman is the one at fault? She's responsible for the words, while he's responsible for the violence.
Basically, until the other person crosses that line into higher levels of tension—responding in kind without using insults—everything is fine.
If they are the ones who ramp things up, then they're the guilty party, not the person who kept the conversation at a reasonable level without a single slur.

crimsonsailor7 said:Context is everything—that's why you can't just say a word is "accepted" or "banned." For instance, the word "crap" is perfectly fine in a vacuum, but using it to label someone? That's an insult. Besides, you're pushing for something that has absolutely nothing to do with our conversation... I'm sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention.

Edit: I was going to address that other post you put up in the meantime, but I see there's really no point. Brian Edwards6 tried to explain it to you, I tried to explain it to you, and honestly, I don't know what else I could possibly say to make you get the point...

My context is perfectly valid. Here’s how it went down: I asked how the appraisal process works and added, "well, just be specific if you're actually experienced."

So, the context here is simply trying to figure out how the job gets done.

And if you're claiming that only context matters and not the actual words used, then tell me—in what context is it okay to tell someone, "you're an idiot"? The point is, the words themselves matter just as much as the situation they're in.

Furthermore, it seems like you're eager to jump in because Brian Edwards6 already took a crack at it and failed.
He definitely didn't spend his time explaining those "15 times I've explained this" claims of yours.

It feels like you're skipping over the parts that don't work in your favor. You're exaggerating—or lying, really, since that "15 times" thing never happened—and now, instead of directly addressing it and admitting, "Yeah, it wasn't 15 times," you're avoiding the response altogether because Brian Edwards6 already tried... which isn't even true, since he couldn't possibly know how many times you've actually written something.

EDIT: I appreciate the apology. It was my mistake if I took offense, especially since you didn't intend it as an insult. What matters is what you intended when you sent it, not how I perceived it... if I misinterpret something, that's on me, not the person who sent the message. 😉

Michael Vaughn2 said:... Given the varying thresholds, 50% is a stretch...

Since that threshold doesn't even come close for most other users here, you're definitely an outlier. And just to be clear, this isn't a personal vendetta against you. You clearly possess the necessary expertise to participate in these discussions, but you frequently become overly defensive and combative toward others when defending your views, regardless of how much they actually know.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:... You wanted it, but didn't get it. If I filed my report incorrectly, why didn't you just tell me the right way? It seems your intention wasn't really to educate me on the proper procedure, since you kept quiet about it...

If you look back at the previous comments, you'll see that I provided guidance the moment I realized what was bothering you.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:... I don't believe I have that tendency 🙂 So, where does that leave us now?...

We wait for the administration's decision.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:... Let's just stop with you judging my tendencies, because otherwise, you're essentially claiming the right to judge yours...

Feel free to start a new thread, and we can discuss it further if you truly feel there is an issue here.👍

Michael Vaughn2
My context is perfectly fine...

Actually, no.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:… He hasn't actually explained any of those "I've already explained this 15 times" claims of yours...

Do you see how much it matters how a message is perceived rather than just how it was intended (regardless of how many times someone edits it to be clearer)?😁

Michael Vaughn2 said:So basically, you just skip over anything that doesn't make you look good... you're totally blowing things out of proportion, or honestly, just straight-up lying, because there is no way that happened fifteen times... and now, instead of actually facing the music and admitting that it wasn't even close to fifteen times, you're just dodging the question entirely because Brian Edwards6 tried to call you out on it—except he couldn't even have known exactly how many times you actually posted that stuff anyway...

Does everything really have to be taken so literally? I mean, if we’re going down that road, should we just sit here and tally up every single warning, every deleted post, and every strike you’ve picked up? If we actually sat down and did the math on all of it, it might even hit twenty-five once you add everything together... 🤷
If that’s really the only thing you care about out of this whole mess, then I honestly don't see the point in even having this discussion... Your whole approach here just ends up proving exactly what Brian Edwards6 and I have been saying all along...

Since you’re the only one here hitting those kinds of numbers—it really does set you apart from the rest of the crowd... And just to be clear, this isn't some personal vendetta against you. You clearly have the expertise needed to hold your own in these debates, but sometimes it feels like you get a little too defensive—almost aggressive, actually—when you're pushing back against others, regardless of how much they might actually know about the subject at hand...👍

You’ve got the logic backward on why we even started this conversation. You claimed that based on your experience, you were betting on a bad outcome—but that doesn't actually hold up. If we look at the data, things have gone south only a handful of times, while most of the time, they've turned out just fine. So, if you're really going to base a prediction on past experience, the logical assumption should be that it'll end well...
I guess it all comes down to how much experience I have under my belt—it’s probably going to be the deciding factor in whether this whole discussion ends up being a total disaster or actually goes somewhere...

Unfortunately, you missed the part about subjective impressions—so I guess I’ll have to walk through my own just to prove that airing those kinds of feelings isn't exactly helpful...
I have to disagree—it feels like you’re being a bit too aggressive and confrontational here. That’s just my take on it, anyway... just as this is yours.

If you take a quick look back at my previous comments, you'll see that I pointed you in the right direction the very moment I realized what was actually tripping you up...👍

Take a look at the response to those comments... you'll see that you basically just told them not to do it, without actually offering any real solutions—like where they should go or how they’re supposed to handle it...

Just waiting on the word from the administration...👍

I’m really hoping this arrives in a way that clarifies things—specifically whether I'm actually allowed to use these kinds of words moving forward, rather than turning into some endless debate about who's feeling tense or who's being aggressive... 🙂

Feel free to just start a new thread if you think there's actually an issue here—we can dive into it then...👍

That’s what you need to do. I asked a perfectly clear question about whether those words were acceptable, but instead, you just drifted off into some old argument about previous issues...

Not really...👍

So, you’ve run out of actual points to make—so now you're just retreating into that classic "it is what it is" territory... typical.

You see, what really matters isn't necessarily how something was originally sent—regardless of how many times you go back and edit it—but rather how it’s actually received...

No, you’re still missing the point entirely—you haven't actually laid out an argument here. You need to explain *why* the way something is perceived matters first, and only then can you jump to that "see, I told you" conclusion. Until you bridge that gap... well, nothing is "evident" just by sitting there on its own.

Michael Vaughn2 said:And that’s just wrong because in most cases things actually turned out fine, whereas they only went south in a handful of instances...

The thing is, we actually stepped up and handled things when they needed handling most of the time, so😁 you aren't exactly the only one here trying to stir the pot, though I wouldn't say you're exactly the type to sit back and have a chill, laid-back debate either...

crimsonsailor7 said:Does everything have to be taken so literally? Should we just sit here and count every single warning, every deleted post, and every strike you’ve picked up? For all we know, if you tally it all up, there might even be 25... 🤷
If that’s really the crux of the issue for you, then this whole debate is pretty much pointless. Honestly, the way you're carrying yourself right now just reinforces exactly what Brian Edwards6 and I have been saying...

But why is it that whenever something "isn't literal," you always seem to twist it in your favor? Every time things get vague—suddenly, by some stroke of luck, you're exaggerating things to suit your own narrative.
And why didn't you just say "one" when I first gave you a warning? No, instead you went with "fifteen" just to tilt the scales in my direction.

It was never 25, from you or regarding those specific incidents. We are talking about warnings for "tone" here...

I used to write direct insults before—things that actually earned me deletions and strikes. Those were justified, which is exactly why I changed my approach and don't do that anymore. So, you can't just throw those old strikes into a discussion and claim, "Well, you've already been warned 15 times for your tone."

No, I haven't, because since then I've been careful specifically to avoid insults—I've actually adjusted how I behave.

Fine, let it confirm whatever it may. But I'm not insulting you, and I'm not insulting Brian Edwards6. If you respond to this discussion of mine—let's call it a "high-tension debate"—with something derogatory, then *that* is when you deserve a strike or whatever else. That's my point...

Essentially, tensions can rise however they want, as long as nobody is being insulted or anything similar. If someone, because of those tensions—say, if you suddenly told me to "go join the CIA"—then that would be your mistake, your inability to deal with a piece of text that remains POLITE.

If you open Pandora's box and start sanctioning "potential rising tensions," then you could practically hand out a warning for every other word spoken...

As long as people aren't insulting one another and are writing politely, there shouldn't be an issue.
The day I actually call someone "clueless" in any context—fine, sanction me then.
As long as I am making the effort—based on what was previously written—to adjust my opinion and write, "please be more specific," and yet I still get sanctioned while trying my best... well...

Michael Vaughn2 said:But look, I'm not trying to insult you or Brian Edwards6 at all. My whole point is just that if you respond to my argument—even if things get a little heated between us—with something totally nasty, then yeah, that's when you've earned a ban or whatever the mods decide... that's really all I'm getting at.

Nobody was even talking about insults, and honestly, I don't think I said anything offensive either. Like I already mentioned, I wasn't trying to be rude to you, I was just trying to give you a heads-up...

Michael Vaughn2 said:So basically, tensions can flare up however they want, as long as nobody starts throwing insults or stuff like that...

It’s not just about being insulting, though; breaking the rules is also enough to get you banned or have your posts wiped...

Michael Vaughn2 said:I'm out here actually putting in the effort to write everything out properly, including adding my own take after the text—like asking someone to "get specific"—and yet I still end up getting flagged when I'm genuinely trying my best...

We've been over this already, and I really don't see why I should keep repeating myself. For the 15th time now 😁
Maybe the admins should step in and take a look at this, because I've got nothing left to say...

Michael Vaughn2 said:… I disagree, and frankly, I find your tone a bit too aggressive and confrontational. That’s just my take on it, much like yours is on me...

And look, there's no issue here; everyone is entitled to their own perspective.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:… If you look at the response to those comments, you'll see he merely pointed out what shouldn't be done, without actually offering a solution or explaining how to properly handle it...

This is what I wrote:

… If you feel that a moderator has insulted you via Direct Message, you are free to report Direct Message and the administration will take it from there...

I thought it was fairly obvious how to report a Direct Message. If it wasn't, then my apologies for not being clear enough. You report a Direct Message by clicking the triangle icon (report Direct Message), exactly the same way you would report a standard comment. The only difference is that notifications for reported comments go to the moderators in charge of that specific sub-forum, whereas reports for Direct Messages go straight to the administrators. From there, an administrator will act on the report or reach out to you via Direct Message to clarify the situation.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:… See, you're running out of arguments, so you're reducing the debate to a simple "is vs. isn't" argument...

Given that after several back-and-forth comments, you end up saying:

… My context is correct...

I don't see any point in repeating myself if I'm clearly not getting through to you. However, I have stated my opinion, as have the other participants involved, and the administration will make its final decision regarding this matter.👍

Michael Vaughn2 said:… So, theories can basically be whatever you want them to be...

I wouldn't go that far.🙂

crimsonsailor7 said:Just because we stepped in more often by reacting early, 😁 you aren't the only one cranking up the tension here—though it’s certainly not like you have a reputation for keeping things chill and civil.

That isn't accurate at all. You actually reacted less often than people think.
And I'll go a step further—sanctioning someone for something that *might* cause tension with another group just doesn't hold water.
Telling a woman she can't speak—under the assumption her husband might lose his temper—is just nonsense.
As long as the conversation stays free of insults, everything is fine. If someone actually follows through on that tension and starts hurling insults, then yeah, they get sanctioned.

Anyone can claim, "I feel like this might escalate into a fight," and then suddenly, poof—their post gets deleted.
We should be punishing actual violations, not the mere possibility of them. 🙂

It's like throwing someone in jail just because they bought a handgun. It doesn't matter if they actually shot anyone; the logic is that they *could* have, so we better lock them up now. To me, that feels fundamentally wrong... it undermines the very core of democracy and free speech.

If someone insults you, you have legal recourse for defamation. But punishing someone simply for raising the temperature of a debate? That’s a slippery slope toward infringing on democratic principles.

Hey, no hard feelings—everyone’s entitled to their own take.👍

The thing is, an opinion is basically like... well, let's just say everyone's got one.🙂))
So, you don't really get anywhere with these opinions since opposing views just end up canceling each other out... nothing gained.
But calling someone an idiot? Now, that's a straight-up insult.

I think it's pretty clear how to report Private Message. If it isn't, my bad if I wasn't being direct enough. You report a Private message by clicking the triangle icon (report Private message), exactly like you would with a regular comment. The only difference is that reported comments go to the moderators for that specific sub-forum, while reports for private messages go straight to the administrators. From there, the admin will handle it or reach out via private message to get more details from you.👍

Got it now, thanks.

Since you're saying this after we've gone back and forth through several comments:
I don't see much point in repeating myself, since I'm clearly not getting through to you. Regardless, I've stated my position, just like the other participants have, and the administration will make the final call on the matter.👍

Why be so self-centered about it? Because from where I'm sitting, it seems I'm not getting through to you either.
It's like watching some political talk show on CNN...
One side tells the other, "You aren't listening, we can't reach you," while completely missing the obvious fact that the other side feels exactly the same way. It's just two sides of the same coin.

Not quite.🙂

Actually, yes.
How am I supposed to wrap my head around that without an argument? If your answer is "not quite," then explain why it isn't.
If you don't provide a reason, it's as if you didn't say anything at all...