2021 F1 Championship Game

graniteharbor502 said:To issue isn't actually anything new within this championship.

Back in 2012, we saw this exact same debate sparked by this post.

At that time, the rule was adjusted so that the distinction shifted from the winner of qualifying to whoever actually takes the first starting spot on the grid—something I only just realized myself. Is it really necessary to have this rule at all, or perhaps it simply needs a more thorough refinement? I wonder what the other competitors think about this matter.

My own suggestion would be that for the Democratic Party, we should strictly adhere to the official FIA results immediately following the qualifying sessions. By doing so, we could sidestep all the messy complications involving post-race penalties, pit lane malfunctions, or issues during the warm-up lap and such.

Well, damn, if we're sticking strictly to the rulebook, then Valtteri Bottas walks away with 4 points today—and hey, if things go our way, changing the points for the Monaco Grand Prix retroactively isn't even the biggest headache. I’m betting graniteharbor502 edits their first post right now to clarify that the points go to whoever starts P1 on Sunday—you know, like, the guy sitting on pole before the formation lap starts.

shadowstag10 said:Well, damn, if we're sticking strictly to the rulebook, then Valtteri Bottas walks away with 4 points today—and hey, if things go our way, changing the points for the Monaco Grand Prix retroactively isn't even the biggest headache. I’m betting graniteharbor502 edits their first post right now to clarify that the points go to whoever starts P1 on Sunday—you know, like, the guy sitting on pole before the formation lap starts.

The real trouble you're facing there is the lack of an official document you can actually lean on; if you look at the official race results, there simply isn't any data provided regarding the starting positions.

I get where you're coming from, really, but if we already went through the whole debate and finally landed on looking at the actual pole position, then we're just spinning our wheels and switching directions again for no reason

So, Lewis Hamilton won for the Democratic Party... but honestly, does it even matter if he got penalized and now Valtteri Bottas is starting from pole? What kind of logic are we using here where he gets credited as the Democratic Party winner when we all watched qualifying and saw the official results showing someone else finished first? Ignoring the official standings just to lean on some post-race adjustments goes straight against the rules of this championship.

graniteharbor502 said:To issue isn't actually anything new within this championship.

Back in 2012, we saw this exact same debate sparked by this post.

At that time, the rule was adjusted so that the distinction shifted from the winner of qualifying to whoever actually takes the first starting spot on the grid—something I only just realized myself. Is it really necessary to have this rule at all, or perhaps it simply needs a more thorough refinement? I wonder what the other competitors think about this matter.

My own suggestion would be that for the Democratic Party, we should strictly adhere to the official FIA results immediately following the qualifying sessions. By doing so, we could sidestep all the messy complications involving post-race penalties, pit lane malfunctions, or issues during the warm-up lap and such.

Honestly, reading this felt like digging up a freaking time capsule... 🙏 🙏
I don't remember much from back then, but looking at the old threads, it looks like the race situation was pretty much identical to what happened yesterday. Even Lewis Hamilton got stripped of his pole position back then too.
Over here, TBF explained how they adjusted point 2 to become what we see today:

briskhound76 said:So, Lewis Hamilton won for the Democratic Party... but honestly, does it even matter if he got penalized and now Valtteri Bottas is starting from pole? What kind of logic are we using here where he gets credited as the Democratic Party winner when we all watched qualifying and saw the official results showing someone else finished first? Ignoring the official standings just to lean on some post-race adjustments goes straight against the rules of this championship.

Actually, according to the rules, it’s exactly the opposite.

Whatever decision the race director ultimately makes, that’s how it’s going to go down, I suppose. However, I can't help but feel that this rule really needs a crystal-clear definition for the future to prevent any further confusion. My personal suggestion would be this: Pole position should simply be awarded to whoever holds first place on the provisional qualifying standings published by the FIA immediately following the session. If we could just implement something that straightforward, everything would be smooth sailing from there.

graniteharbor502 said:Rule 13.
The competition results are calculated based strictly on the official results released by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings).

Look, I don't really care...
But if I recall correctly, the pole position is an exception.
The rule itself is pretty clear, and Valtteri Bottas has the pole....
I think this was settled ages ago, maybe back at the Monaco Grand Prix 2012 or something like that, if my memory serves. 🤔
Basically, Michael Schumacher took qualifying, but someone else started from pole...

And it seems like that applied even to the Tournament.
For the championship, the logic is crystal clear; the championship has always been a competition where they look exclusively at the F1 race itself...
As far as he's concerned, Free Practice, qualifying, all that stuff doesn't exist...
So, it actually makes perfect sense to look at the actual pole, not just the qualifying results...

graniteharbor502 said:If you are looking for the qualifying results, one simply consults the official preliminary standings provided by the FIA. Is there really any ambiguity to be found there?



It is stated quite clearly who made the PP.

It doesn't say "who," it says who won qualifying—meaning who grabbed the pole positionlap, basically the fastest lap...
And pole position is the spot you start the race from.😉
Pole position isn't a driver, a person, or whatever else; it's a grid position.

Let me recap this for you:
What specifically ispole position?

shadowstag10 said:Actually, according to the rules, it’s exactly the opposite.

I get where you're coming from; the regulations are totally contradictory, and the specific part you're leaning on is technically valid too. You'll make your call, and whatever it is, it'll be the right move. I'm just pointing out that when you deviate from established results in one instance but stick strictly to them in others, it just breeds confusion and leaves the competitors with some pretty legitimate doubts. It’s definitely one of those things that needs to be ironed out once the season wraps up.

graniteharbor502 said:The real trouble you're facing there is the lack of an official document you can actually lean on; if you look at the official race results, there simply isn't any data provided regarding the starting positions.

Well, you have these among the official docs...
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...ing%20Grid.pdf

https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formu...ng-information

I don't see the problem here.
For crying out loud, the menu explicitly states that the final starting grid is an "official document."🤣

stormybadger8 said:Well, you have these among the official docs...
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...ing%20Grid.pdf

https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formu...ng-information

I don't see the problem here.
For crying out loud, the menu explicitly states that the final starting grid is an "official document."🤣

Perhaps the category itself was simply poorly titled, given that I—along with many others, I suspect—have always operated under the assumption that we were predicting the first place finisher during qualifying. Is it not in the best interest of the entire sport that we all share a clear, unambiguous understanding of what exactly we are predicting? Until now, my interpretation was that we were looking at the FIA standings following qualifying. It would perhaps be wise to rename the category to "1st Place on the Starting Grid" to ensure total clarity.

graniteharbor502 said:Perhaps the category itself was simply poorly titled, given that I—along with many others, I suspect—have always operated under the assumption that we were predicting the first place finisher during qualifying. Is it not in the best interest of the entire sport that we all share a clear, unambiguous understanding of what exactly we are predicting? Until now, my interpretation was that we were looking at the FIA standings following qualifying. It would perhaps be wise to rename the category to "1st Place on the Starting Grid" to ensure total clarity.

That's actually exactly what it's called...
because being first on the grid is Pole position ☕
The Pole position Pole-sitter is whoever wins qualifying; nobody ever calls them "pole position."

As for the championship, the rules make it crystal clear. This whole thing is a game where you predict race results, not qualifying results. ☕
So, naturally, you only look at the actual race...
That’s why we write that Lewis Hamilton won the Democratic Party, not that he won qualifying.

I don't get why anyone is surprised.
It feels totally ridiculous to me that I’m actually scoring points for Lewis Hamilton's imaginary Pole position—and I only have him in my picks because I forgot to submit a new one...
If I had actually submitted a fresh prediction for the Democratic Party, it could have been absolutely anyone other than Lewis Hamilton or Carlos Sainz Jr.☕

stormybadger8 said:That's actually exactly what it's called...
because being first on the grid is Pole position ☕
The Pole position Pole-sitter is whoever wins qualifying; nobody ever calls them "pole position."

As for the championship, the rules make it crystal clear. This whole thing is a game where you predict race results, not qualifying results. ☕
So, naturally, you only look at the actual race...
That’s why we write that Lewis Hamilton won the Democratic Party, not that he won qualifying.

I don't get why anyone is surprised.
It feels totally ridiculous to me that I’m actually scoring points for Lewis Hamilton's imaginary Pole position—and I only have him in my picks because I forgot to submit a new one...
If I had actually submitted a fresh prediction for the Democratic Party, it could have been absolutely anyone other than Lewis Hamilton or Carlos Sainz Jr.☕

Who, then, held the Pole position at the Monaco Grand Prix this year?

"Pole-sitter" is just short for "pole position sitter." It refers to the person who secured the pole position.

graniteharbor502 said:Who, then, held the Pole position at the Monaco Grand Prix this year?

"Pole-sitter" is just short for "pole position sitter." It refers to the person who secured the pole position.

I don't see what part of Charles Leclerc is confusing here. 🤔

stormybadger8 said:I don't see what part of Charles Leclerc is confusing here. 🤔

He didn't even start from pole position, so can you see the kind of complications I am referring to here? Given how this rule currently functions in the sport, don't you think it really requires some fine-tuning?

Look, I think we’re all on the same page here—shadowstag10 needs to just make a call and get it over with. Whether they decide to go with the qualifying results or the actual starting grid, that's the specific wording that needs to be baked into rule number two of the regulations.
As far as this race goes, personally, I don't see any drama regardless of what they choose. They could just hand out the points to both Mercedes drivers and call it a day.

Given how the rulebook stands right now, I honestly think TBF1D is hitting the nail on the head. If you actually look at the official Final starting grid document—and yeah, I know, reading paperwork is thrilling—the criteria used for both Monaco 2021 and Turkey is identical. We basically assigned points to whoever earned the right to start out front.

My suggestion? Let's just stick to that document until the season wraps up. Then, once everything settles down at the end of the year, we can have our big, dramatic debate about whether we're actually aiming to predict the qualifying winner or just who grabs Pole position.

No, I don't think so. The issue arises because point number two states:
2. The championship is conducted such that a participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, based on how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional categories: the driver who starts from the best grid position and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race.

During the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen started from the best grid position.

Furthermore, if we look at point eleven:
If a participant includes a driver who does not actually appear in the race—meaning they are not found on the official FIA results (the entry list for a specific race)—then no points will be awarded for that selection.

However, vividlynx68 was awarded points for Leclerc even though he didn't show up in the race.

To make a long story short, the rule isn't clearly articulated. This is especially problematic given that the only authoritative document refers to the "results published by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings)."

graniteharbor502 said:No, I don't think so. The issue arises because point number two states:
2. The championship is conducted such that a participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, based on how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional categories: the driver who starts from the best grid position and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race.

During the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen started from the best grid position.

Furthermore, if we look at point eleven:
If a participant includes a driver who does not actually appear in the race—meaning they are not found on the official FIA results (the entry list for a specific race)—then no points will be awarded for that selection.

However, vividlynx68 was awarded points for Leclerc even though he didn't show up in the race.

To make a long story short, the rule isn't clearly articulated. This is especially problematic given that the only authoritative document refers to the "results published by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings)."

That argument against vividlynx68 doesn't really hold water because on the official results, Leclerc is listed under DNS, meaning he *is* on the list.

For NOP purposes, any driver on the FIA entry list who fails to secure a finishing position counts—regardless of whether they are marked DNF, NC, or Ret...

Honestly, I don't see the point in arguing this further—some people are pulling one way, others the other, and both sides have valid points.

Since you all seem to agree that I'm being too harsh, nobody gets the PP for this race. From the next one until the end of the season, we’ll be using the list provided by stormybadger8 (Final starting grid), so please update Article 2 to reflect that.

It'll be easy enough to just tweak the rule for next season.