2021 F1 Championship Game

PP refers to Valtteri Bottas. We’ve already gone over this exact issue before, which is precisely why the rulebook was updated to specify that it's whoever starts from the highest position.
In my view, there's no ambiguity here!
😁

Terry Carter2 As if anyone could have truly predicted how this all would unfold, right? It makes one wonder, doesn't it? When we look back at the sheer unpredictability of the sport, can we really say any of us were prepared for the complexities of the current season? I find myself sitting here, reflecting on the nuances of the regulations and wondering if we are merely witnessing the inevitable consequence of a system that refuses to remain static. Does it not feel as though we are constantly chasing a moving target, hoping that the next turn of the wheel brings clarity where there was only chaos before?
Regarding the PP designation, it refers to Valtteri Bottas, and honestly, haven't we already dissected this exact issue in previous discussions? It was precisely because of this kind of ambiguity that the rulebook was updated to clarify that the term specifically denotes whoever secures the best starting position.
As far as I am concerned, there isn't even a question of any doubt here!
😁

Well, I suppose I have already demonstrated through that example from the Monaco GP that things simply aren't being made clear, haven't I? 🙄

Point 2 is being updated and now reads as follows:
2. The championship is conducted such that each participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, reflecting how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional specific drivers: the driver identified as the 1st driver on the official FIA Final Starting Grid (the so-called PP category) and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race (the so-called FL category). Participants may submit their predictions immediately following the conclusion of the previous deadline, and at the very latest, by the scheduled start of Free Practice 3 during the weekend of the upcoming race; this deadline applies to every single race in the season. Furthermore, participants are permitted to correct their predictions or submit entirely new ones an unlimited number of times until that specified deadline passes.

Point 13 is also being amended and shall henceforth read:
13. Competition results are calculated based strictly on the results published by the FIA immediately upon the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings). No subsequent corrections issued by the FIA will be taken into account. Regarding NOP drivers, this includes all drivers listed on the FIA entry list who fail to achieve a finishing position, regardless of their specific status (such as DNF, NC, Ret...). Otherwise, according to FIA regulations, a driver is considered to have retired from the race if they complete less than 90% of the total race distance, and the race itself is run for the exact number of laps determined by the FIA through its own official ruling, whether it be a standard or extraordinary decision.
Drivers who fail to qualify during the qualifying sessions and therefore do not participate in the race will be counted as NOP only if they are included on the official FIA entry list.
The PP category is determined according to the official FIA Final Starting Grid document..

graniteharbor502 said:No, I don't think so. The issue arises because point number two states:
2. The championship is conducted such that a participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, based on how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional categories: the driver who starts from the best grid position and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race.

During the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen started from the best grid position.

Furthermore, if we look at point eleven:
If a participant includes a driver who does not actually appear in the race—meaning they are not found on the official FIA results (the entry list for a specific race)—then no points will be awarded for that selection.

However, vividlynx68 was awarded points for Leclerc even though he didn't show up in the race.

To make a long story short, the rule isn't clearly articulated. This is especially problematic given that the only authoritative document refers to the "results published by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings)."

🤦

Oh, sure, whatever you say...
At the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen actually started from P2...
You can try to play philosopher about how Max started and spin circles all day, but anyone with eyes can see exactly where Max Verstappen's car was sitting...

graniteharbor502 said:He didn't even start from pole position, so can you see the kind of complications I am referring to here? Given how this rule currently functions in the sport, don't you think it really requires some fine-tuning?

Yeah, the Pole position went to Leclerc. ☕
Just look at the photos of that start...
Leclerc's spot on the grid was left empty; they didn't just bump someone else into his place, the slot stayed vacant.

Why?
Because Leclerc was the one supposed to take Pole, and the Pole position was his. ☕

graniteharbor502 said:No, I don't think so. The issue arises because point number two states:
2. The championship is conducted such that a participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, based on how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional categories: the driver who starts from the best grid position and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race.

During the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen started from the best grid position.

Furthermore, if we look at point eleven:
If a participant includes a driver who does not actually appear in the race—meaning they are not found on the official FIA results (the entry list for a specific race)—then no points will be awarded for that selection.

However, vividlynx68 was awarded points for Leclerc even though he didn't show up in the race.

To make a long story short, the rule isn't clearly articulated. This is especially problematic given that the only authoritative document refers to the "results published by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings)."

How do you manage to cram so many inaccuracies into a single post? 🤦
Leclerc showed up to the race, Leclerc was on the entry list, and Leclerc is listed in the final standings...
Stop overcomplicating things that don't need explaining...

Everything you wrote regarding Monaco is completely, utterly detached from reality...
And as far as the rulebook goes, it’s crystal clear: Leclerc took Pole at the Monaco GP. There isn't enough linguistic gymnastics in the world to put anyone else in that spot in Monaco...
Maybe in some freak accident scenario you could argue there's no PP, but even in my wildest dreams is that PP ever going to be Max's? ☕

And seriously, what part of the rulebook is confusing here???
It’s stated crystal clear: the results published by the FIA immediately after the race ends (the preliminary standings)
What exactly is so hard to grasp???
After the RACE ends. The Race, not qualifying.

graniteharbor502 said:

Terry Carter2 As if anyone could have truly predicted how this all would unfold, right? It makes one wonder, doesn't it? When we look back at the sheer unpredictability of the sport, can we really say any of us were prepared for the complexities of the current season? I find myself sitting here, reflecting on the nuances of the regulations and wondering if we are merely witnessing the inevitable consequence of a system that refuses to remain static. Does it not feel as though we are constantly chasing a moving target, hoping that the next turn of the wheel brings clarity where there was only chaos before?
Regarding the PP designation, it refers to Valtteri Bottas, and honestly, haven't we already dissected this exact issue in previous discussions? It was precisely because of this kind of ambiguity that the rulebook was updated to clarify that the term specifically denotes whoever secures the best starting position.
As far as I am concerned, there isn't even a question of any doubt here!
😁

Well, I suppose I have already demonstrated through that example from the Monaco GP that things simply aren't being made clear, haven't I? 🙄

That is an exception that changes absolutely nothing about this race.
😁

stormybadger8 said:🤦

Oh, sure, whatever you say...
At the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen actually started from P2...
You can try to play philosopher about how Max started and spin circles all day, but anyone with eyes can see exactly where Max Verstappen's car was sitting...

Yeah, the Pole position went to Leclerc. ☕
Just look at the photos of that start...
Leclerc's spot on the grid was left empty; they didn't just bump someone else into his place, the slot stayed vacant.

Why?
Because Leclerc was the one supposed to take Pole, and the Pole position was his. ☕

How do you manage to cram so many inaccuracies into a single post? 🤦
Leclerc showed up to the race, Leclerc was on the entry list, and Leclerc is listed in the final standings...
Stop overcomplicating things that don't need explaining...

Everything you wrote regarding Monaco is completely, utterly detached from reality...
And as far as the rulebook goes, it’s crystal clear: Leclerc took Pole at the Monaco GP. There isn't enough linguistic gymnastics in the world to put anyone else in that spot in Monaco...
Maybe in some freak accident scenario you could argue there's no PP, but even in my wildest dreams is that PP ever going to be Max's? ☕

And seriously, what part of the rulebook is confusing here???
It’s stated crystal clear: the results published by the FIA immediately after the race ends (the preliminary standings)
What exactly is so hard to grasp???
After the RACE ends. The Race, not qualifying.

Let me simplify this for you. Max started from the best available position. Once you can show me a photo proving someone else started from a better position, then perhaps I will take the rest of your text seriously.

The entire point of this discussion is that the rule as it was written is open to interpretation. Now that we have clarified it, what is being referred to is quite obvious.

Terry Carter2 said:That is an exception that changes absolutely nothing about this race.
😁

It doesn't change anything for this one, but personally, I wasn't credited with 4 points in Monaco.🙄

I'm skipping all the fluff because I feel like we already have an understanding here. Just give me a quick answer on how we're playing this:
1) Use the Final starting grid like usual, or
2) Go back to using qualifying results like they did back in 2012?

If it's 1), which is what I'm betting on, then nothing really changes. In that case, I'm calling on the moderator to officially recognize Valtteri Bottas for all of us who called him correctly.

stormytiger4 said:I'm skipping all the fluff because I feel like we already have an understanding here. Just give me a quick answer on how we're playing this:
1) Use the Final starting grid like usual, or
2) Go back to using qualifying results like they did back in 2012?

If it's 1), which is what I'm betting on, then nothing really changes. In that case, I'm calling on the moderator to officially recognize Valtteri Bottas for all of us who called him correctly.

Final starting grid

The 2nd championship is played such that each participant posts their predicted order of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe—based on how they believe the race will actually end—plus two additional drivers: the driver marked as 1st on the official FIA Final Starting Grid (the so-called PP category) and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race (the so-called FL category). Participants can publish their predictions immediately after the previous deadline ends, and no later than the scheduled start of Free Practice 3 during the upcoming race weekend; this deadline applies to every single race of the season. Participants are permitted to correct their predictions or submit entirely new ones an unlimited number of times until that specific deadline passes.

Yeah, the starting grid. We’ve been calling it all along, honestly. No surprises there. 👍

stormytiger4 said:Yeah, the starting grid. We’ve been calling it all along, honestly. No surprises there. 👍

Wait a second, let's be precise here—it isn't just the provisional starting grid. There is actually a separate document for that. You see, if you look at Daniel Ricciardo, his position differs between those two specific documents. It is all quite important, really, just so there isn't any unnecessary confusion.

Everything makes sense now. I'm glad the extra bit in the rulebook cleared things up for you, because it probably wasn't just you—it was me, TBF1D, Terry Carter2, and shadowstag10 too. This is basically just a formal extension of what we've all been thinking all along.

Turkish GP results are live at this link:

Turkish GP

Points have been logged, but without accounting for Bottas taking Pole position.

Jason Parker2 and TBF1D both think—and honestly, I get it—that even though we’ve got Hamilton in the mix, Bottas deserves the credit for Pole.

I need everyone else to weigh in here. If we hit a majority consensus, I'll give the Pole position points to Bottas; otherwise, we’re sticking with what’s already down.

silentbear49, Amanda Kelly, darkmarlin16, and cosmicridge5 (two out of four for changing the score)

You guys have until Sunday at 11:59 PM to make your voices heard. And don't even try the "I didn't see this" excuse—if you stay silent, I'm counting it as a "no" and leaving things as they are.

Giving credit where it's due for Valtteri Bottas.

Edit:
Now I’m gonna end up looking like I'm trying to snatch the win away from cosmicridge5, but that’s not it at all. It’s just that I don't see the point in handing out points to people who followed the rules when they interpreted Hamilton's penalty that way. Honestly, I'd much rather they just make a concession for everyone who was confused and award the points to Hamilton too.

For Bottas!

I’m suggesting you stop relying on voting and democracy altogether. Just make the call and be done with it.
😁

Look, I’m not choosing to side with Bottas just because it helps my own case here—if I weren't the one running this show, I’d be right there in the trenches with you guys, typing out stuff like, "Oh, give me a break, just admit Bottas deserves it, the rulebook is what it is."

If, like I said, they decide by Sunday that those points go to Bottas, I'll update this. If not? Well, then Pati keeps the win.

shadowstag10 said:Look, I’m not choosing to side with Bottas just because it helps my own case here—if I weren't the one running this show, I’d be right there in the trenches with you guys, typing out stuff like, "Oh, give me a break, just admit Bottas deserves it, the rulebook is what it is."

If, like I said, they decide by Sunday that those points go to Bottas, I'll update this. If not? Well, then Pati keeps the win.

That’s a fair point, but why on earth would you assume democracy is built on the foundation of objective opinions? Let’s be realistic here: people aren't walking around as impartial judges. In reality, everyone is going to pull in whatever direction serves their own interests. It's basic human nature to look out for number one, and expecting a system to run solely on pure, unbiased logic is like expecting a driver to navigate a hairpin turn without looking at the track—it just doesn't happen. Everyone has an agenda.
😁

stormytiger4 said:Giving credit where it's due for Valtteri Bottas.

Edit:
Now I’m gonna end up looking like I'm trying to snatch the win away from cosmicridge5, but that’s not it at all. It’s just that I don't see the point in handing out points to people who followed the rules when they interpreted Hamilton's penalty that way. Honestly, I'd much rather they just make a concession for everyone who was confused and award the points to Hamilton too.

hahha, don't sweat it 🤣😍😁

I'll admit the embarrassing truth—when I was writing my prediction, I had no idea how Luja's penalty would be calculated. Then I saw that Fortin put him on Pole position, so I figured he must know the rules inside out and concluded that the person who takes Pole before the penalty is applied counts. 🤣 So, that's why I put Luja on Pole and Bottas for the win. 😁

Fortin, this is on you 🤣

Regardless, I support whatever decision the director makes 👍 😁

Terry Carter2 said:That’s a fair point, but why on earth would you assume democracy is built on the foundation of objective opinions? Let’s be realistic here: people aren't walking around as impartial judges. In reality, everyone is going to pull in whatever direction serves their own interests. It's basic human nature to look out for number one, and expecting a system to run solely on pure, unbiased logic is like expecting a driver to navigate a hairpin turn without looking at the track—it just doesn't happen. Everyone has an agenda.
😁

And if everyone just pulls in their own direction, then things will stay exactly how they are—which is basically as neutral as it gets, I guess.🍿

Valtteri Bottas

graniteharbor502 said:Let me simplify this for you. Max started from the best available position. Once you can show me a photo proving someone else started from a better position, then perhaps I will take the rest of your text seriously.

The entire point of this discussion is that the rule as it was written is open to interpretation. Now that we have clarified it, what is being referred to is quite obvious.

It doesn't change anything for this one, but personally, I wasn't credited with 4 points in Monaco.🙄

Alright, are we guessing at "best position" or talking about Pole position?
Because in some races, P2 or even P3 is technically the "best" spot on the grid... since the guy in P1 has zero slipstream and usually gets eaten alive in the first corner right after the start. 🙂

So what, are we just going to call P2 the "best position" now? 🙂

You're basically reinventing the wheel here...
Leclerc started the race from Pole position (he did the formation lap), but he wasn't actually on the starting grid itself, so sure, that's a bit of a gray area when deciding whether to count him...
But there is absolutely no way to credit Max, because it makes zero sense—Max didn't start from the position labeled as Pole position.
Even though it’s irrelevant to this specific argument—since while that Monaco situation is somewhat debatable, this Bottas-Hamilton thing isn't at all—
the grid was set in stone before the start. Bottas was P1 on the actual grid, and everyone knew long before qualifying that Hamilton had no chance at Pole. I don't get why people are overcomplicating this.

The old rule was crystal clear. Nobody could interpret it any other way unless they were just whining because they didn't like the results and wanted to play philosopher...
Honestly, this new complication is just going to confuse new fans. They'll be sitting there wondering if everyone knows what "Final Starting Grid" means, where to find the document, and all that nonsense...
On the flip side, "the driver who starts from the best position" is something you grasp when you're three years old. ☕