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Complaint regarding the religion subforum moderator (removing Christmas and the Pope)

Started by mistyjackal14 · · 👁 6 views · 47 replies

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Participants mistyjackal14Chris Peterson53Brenda Cook4Jeremy Young19mellowlynx68Susan Price30Nicole JamesAmy Castillo4Daniel Ward87Morgan Rodriguez57Anthony Perez9swiftcrane96Timothy Robinson2Harold Richardsoncoppermarlin13Nicholas KingRichard James2feralpilot0
mistyjackal14 mistyjackal14 Active MemberOP
73 messages
joined Aug 2012
#1 ·
Following my objections here, I’ve been directed over to the admins.

In my formal complaint regarding religion, I laid out the issue in great detail,
to put it briefly: the way the coverage of the pope's visit was handled on the official PDF was, in my eyes, quite shameful.

But since I find myself here anyway, let this serve as more than just a pretext; the real reason I'm speaking up is the systematic erasure and relativization of religion, particularly the Catholic faith.

The evidence of this relativism lies in the response I received:
It’s obvious you believe this PDF functions as a specialized Catholic publication!
And because of that, you feel that engaging with people of other faiths or non-believers isn't appropriate—which is the only way to make sense of your conclusion.

So, you see, I wasn't actually asking for a specific topic change; I was protesting the current state of affairs, yet those who shut down threads respond by suggesting that *I* am the one wanting to close them.

And yes, I actually believe the exact opposite—that this PDF acts as a specialized anti-Catholic outlet, which is why the moderation seems to discourage writing intended for believers, as that is the only logical way to interpret their behavior.

As further proof of this bias, look at how the lack of any proper celebration for Christmas occurs; while it used to be observed regularly across several different sub-forums, it has vanished entirely from the religion section.
Chris Peterson53 Chris Peterson53 Active Member
114 messages
joined Dec 2010
#2 ·
If you're going to file a complaint, you really ought to stick to the actual moderator explanations provided—instead of just partially copying them.
Within a single 24-hour window, we had six identical threads popping up about the pope's visit, two of which actually had the exact same title.
Three were merged into one, while the others were wiped out because they were from the same users—who, in record time, managed to derail every single thread with off-topic nonsense.
And let me be clear: that religion PDF isn't intended exclusively for Catholics!
Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#3 ·
=mistyjackal14;34335823 said:
In my book *Complaints About Religion*, I laid out this issue in great detail.
To put it bluntly: I find the way they tracked the pope's visit in that official PDF absolutely shameful.

But since I'm already here, let's use that as a jumping-off point. The real issue is the systematic erasure and the constant watering down of religion, especially Catholicism.

I’m honestly not sure why you’d call it shameful. Everything the users wanted to say—or still want to say—is right there in that open thread: The Pope in Washington, D.C. / Group Topic. So, I don't quite follow what you mean by a "systematic erasure" or the "watering down" of religion, particularly the Catholic faith.
The proof of that relativism for me is this response:

And yes, I believe the exact opposite. That PDF is essentially a specialized anti-Catholic publication. Because of that, I don't think it's an appropriate way to communicate with believers; otherwise, people will just see the moderation as biased.

What are you basing this "inappropriateness" on? There is a dedicated thread where anyone can post, provided they stick to the forum rules. At the end of the day, the quality and engagement of any given thread really just depend on the users.

As proof, look at how there isn't even a celebration for Christmas (the Catholic one) happening here. It used to be celebrated regularly across several sub-forums, but not in the religion section.

But who decides how we "celebrate" things on this forum? Usually, up until now, it’s been as simple as sayingMerry Christmas. So, it’s really up to you all, dear users, to start new threads or post in existing ones that cover the same topic.🤷
mistyjackal14 mistyjackal14 Active MemberOP
73 messages
joined Aug 2012
#4 ·
@Chris Peterson53 @Brenda Cook4
I actually laid out all my specific concerns regarding the monitoring of the Pope over on the religion board, which is why I included that link earlier.
If the administrators (the ones you both pointed me toward) decide they need more detail, I’ll certainly try to elaborate further on those points.

For the most part, everything you two have asked here was already addressed in that other thread.

But, since you’ve already directed me toward the admins, I figured I might as well expand on this topic—just as I mentioned before—so I don't end up bothering them with every single isolated instance, but rather by presenting the broader picture instead.

The big picture, from my perspective, is that there seems to be a pervasive anti-Catholic atmosphere on the religion board, and if you want proof, look no further than the fact that Christmas wasn't even celebrated back in 2010 (which is exactly what the link from @Brenda Cook4 confirms).

It feels even more telling when you look at how Orthodox Christmas is handled, where right from the jump, a forum member is already worried that the moderator might shut the thread down simply because they aren't fond of Orthodoxy.
From what I can gather, that particular moderator isn't in charge anymore, so perhaps the Orthodox community doesn't face those same existential hurdles, but other Christians—well, at least us Catholics—clearly still do.
It really makes me wonder how an Easter celebration would even go if it hadn't happened to fall on the exact same date as the Orthodox one this year, especially since this whole discussion started with an Orthodox greeting; I can't help but get the impression that Catholics are expected to either just follow the lead of the Orthodox or simply stay out of the way entirely.
Jeremy Young19 Jeremy Young19 Member
10 messages
joined Mar 2010
#5 ·
The discussion regarding the pope's visit over on the religion subforum is really just a symptom of the ongoing atmosphere that’s been festering there for quite some time. It is a stroke of pure luck that the politics section actually had a thread dedicated to the visit, which serves as a glaring indictment of our moderators over on the religion board—both in terms of the caliber of debate and the general conduct of the users and staff alike.
Chris Peterson53 Chris Peterson53 Active Member
114 messages
joined Dec 2010
#6 ·
The issue isn't about the PDF files or the moderators—it's much deeper than that. It’s about users failing to distinguish between political or social activism and religious belief. When people try to drag religion into the realm of politics, they are stepping exactly where they don't belong!
mistyjackal14 mistyjackal14 Active MemberOP
73 messages
joined Aug 2012
#7 ·
I really wanted to take a moment to give a shout-out to the admins over at the Religion sub-forum, not just because they allowed us to go ahead with celebrating Christmas this year, but because they actually took the initiative to get things moving (@Brenda Cook4).

The real issue, however, seems to have shifted up a notch toward the moderation team. You see, while the thread itself proceeded quite smoothly with everyone showing mutual respect, one moderator (who also happens to be an admin on the Religion board) decided to start trolling, flame wars, and dumping endless litanies written in English*
For the first time ever, I actually found myself using that little traffic sign icon down in the corner, though I’m well aware it isn’t particularly effective against reds.🙂

I managed to successfully ignore the post, but a few trolls and flamers did gather to back up the moderator.

Perhaps any given religion, or even anti-religion, has intolerance baked right into its foundation, which leads to this strange paradox where, in the name of tolerance, one must permit their very intolerance and provocations—but honestly, those are getting into some pretty heavy, sophistic philosophical territory.

Anyway, I'll offer my thanks to the admins once more, because if I’m going to offer criticism, I believe it’s only fair to offer praise as well, all while holding onto the hope and understanding that things might improve even more next year; I realize that normalcy doesn't just happen overnight, and you can't force change through the hierarchy.

*It might sound a bit silly to people from other sub-forums when I mention relying on untranslated text, but on the Religion board, that is strictly monitored, and I've personally been handed warnings for poor translations, even by that very same moderator.
mellowlynx68 mellowlynx68 Member
47 messages
joined Apr 2008
#8 ·
I just finished reading the linked thread.
The moderator was trolling as usual, and a few people actually fell for it.
They definitely deserved those warnings ☕.
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#9 ·
mistyjackal14 said:I really wanted to take a moment to give a shout-out to the admins over at the Religion sub-forum, not just because they allowed us to go ahead with celebrating Christmas this year, but because they actually took the initiative to get things moving (@Brenda Cook4).

The real issue, however, seems to have shifted up a notch toward the moderation team. You see, while the thread itself proceeded quite smoothly with everyone showing mutual respect, one moderator (who also happens to be an admin on the Religion board) decided to start trolling, flame wars, and dumping endless litanies written in English*
For the first time ever, I actually found myself using that little traffic sign icon down in the corner, though I’m well aware it isn’t particularly effective against reds.🙂

I managed to successfully ignore the post, but a few trolls and flamers did gather to back up the moderator.

Perhaps any given religion, or even anti-religion, has intolerance baked right into its foundation, which leads to this strange paradox where, in the name of tolerance, one must permit their very intolerance and provocations—but honestly, those are getting into some pretty heavy, sophistic philosophical territory.

Anyway, I'll offer my thanks to the admins once more, because if I’m going to offer criticism, I believe it’s only fair to offer praise as well, all while holding onto the hope and understanding that things might improve even more next year; I realize that normalcy doesn't just happen overnight, and you can't force change through the hierarchy.

*It might sound a bit silly to people from other sub-forums when I mention relying on untranslated text, but on the Religion board, that is strictly monitored, and I've personally been handed warnings for poor translations, even by that very same moderator.

Sorry, but what exactly are you talking about here, and what are you even thanking them for?

The smallest issue is that the post was written in a foreign language—it looks like the guy is just mocking everyone with have a blessed day under the sun in a thread that is strictly about football and sharing holiday wishes for Christmas with everyone, whether they celebrate or not.

Back when I used to post there, that subforum had plenty of active believers who contributed regularly—lots of Christians and Muslims, and many great, informative threads. Now, none of them post there because all those people have simply moved on.

What are you all doing there? Why feed the trolls who just want to make fun of people? It doesn't seem like that subforum is for believers anymore, nor is it a place for high-quality theological debate or interfaith dialogue—at least not until the whole concept of the subforum changes.
Nicole James Nicole James Regular
313 messages
joined Dec 2010
#10 ·
Look, this isn't some exclusive club reserved solely for believers or high-level theological debates—you can find plenty of those forums out there, whether they focus on Islam, Catholicism, or whatever else. Here, everyone is welcome to dive into discussions about religion regardless of where they stand, and honestly, I think the best conversations happen when we look at things from different angles, not just through a strictly theological lens.

Besides, it seems a bit strange that you're taking issue with the greeting, especially since your access to the religion forum was revoked. I really hope you aren't resorting to using clones again to get around things.😉
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#11 ·
Nicole James said:Look, this isn't some exclusive club reserved solely for believers or high-level theological debates—you can find plenty of those forums out there, whether they focus on Islam, Catholicism, or whatever else. Here, everyone is welcome to dive into discussions about religion regardless of where they stand, and honestly, I think the best conversations happen when we look at things from different angles, not just through a strictly theological lens.

Besides, it seems a bit strange that you're taking issue with the greeting, especially since your access to the religion forum was revoked. I really hope you aren't resorting to using clones again to get around things.😉

I agree, though what you wrote in English was spot on. Was that an early April Fools' joke? 🙏 You could have just gone to a website for jokes and sent them over.

They aren't finished yet, either. All believers. They left because that wasn't actually an "expert" subforum—there were other reasons for that...

Isn't it strange that you wouldn't like the greeting, considering you've been banned from the religion forum? I hope you aren't using clones to post again. 😉

I was never actually responsible for the things I was accused of; it was just a way to get rid of people by planting false evidence. That kind of thing was standard practice under the old "forum regime," wasn't it?😉

No, I haven't been posting there since Shady was removed, nor have I been reading any of it. That post—well, that link to your post is right here on PZK, isn't it?
Amy Castillo4 Amy Castillo4 Active Member
72 messages
joined Dec 2011
#12 ·
Susan Price30 said:Sorry, but what exactly are you talking about here, and what are you even thanking them for?

The smallest issue is that the post was written in a foreign language—it looks like the guy is just mocking everyone with have a blessed day under the sun in a thread that is strictly about football and sharing holiday wishes for Christmas with everyone, whether they celebrate or not.

Back when I used to post there, that subforum had plenty of active believers who contributed regularly—lots of Christians and Muslims, and many great, informative threads. Now, none of them post there because all those people have simply moved on.

What are you all doing there? Why feed the trolls who just want to make fun of people? It doesn't seem like that subforum is for believers anymore, nor is it a place for high-quality theological debate or interfaith dialogue—at least not until the whole concept of the subforum changes.

I’m honestly just sitting here wondering why. 🤔
Alright, here we go—Nicole James is going to give us the answer.
Nicole James said:Look, this isn't some exclusive club reserved solely for believers or high-level theological debates—you can find plenty of those forums out there, whether they focus on Islam, Catholicism, or whatever else. Here, everyone is welcome to dive into discussions about religion regardless of where they stand, and honestly, I think the best conversations happen when we look at things from different angles, not just through a strictly theological lens.

Besides, it seems a bit strange that you're taking issue with the greeting, especially since your access to the religion forum was revoked. I really hope you aren't resorting to using clones again to get around things.😉

Can you tell me, while we're at it, what was actually the point of that post you made on the Christmas greetings thread?
Either I completely missed the point, or you were just being provocative—or maybe you were actually trying to be funny? Hard to tell.
🤷
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#13 ·
And of course, they decide to hand someone a partial ban on a sub-forum where they’d already contributed hundreds of high-quality posts—all because they allegedly had "one or two clones," which was the excuse given, even though their original handle wasn't even banned. It’s honestly laughable. 😁

But I wasn't the only one; this happened to other prominent and widely read members of the religion community there, like Rob Roy, Toza, and Parsifal. Everyone seemed to be handed some transparently flimsy reason just to get them kicked off the religion forum.

I’m sure the forum owner is absolutely thrilled to have people running their own little business while fighting their own private battles, lol. But I suspect the guy unfortunately has no clue what was actually going down over there.
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#14 ·
Amy Castillo4 said:I’m honestly just sitting here wondering why. 🤔
Alright, here we go—Nicole James is going to give us the answer.

Can you tell me, while we're at it, what was actually the point of that post you made on the Christmas greetings thread?
Either I completely missed the point, or you were just being provocative—or maybe you were actually trying to be funny? Hard to tell.
🤷

Neither. I read the text, asked the mods for some clarity, and did a little digging online to get up to speed on the literature.

It wasn't a provocation at all; it was actually a pretty positive sentiment. Sure, it might sound edgy, but celebrating certain dates—especially December 25th—has been around since forever, long before Jesus Christ showed up. It's no secret how various holidays, especially Christian ones, came to be. Even Jesus himself is depicted as Sol Invictus http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datotek..._Invictus.jpeg. So, there's no provocation here; if anything, it's just a basic historical fact.
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#15 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:Neither. I read the text, asked the mods for some clarity, and did a little digging online to get up to speed on the literature.

It wasn't a provocation at all; it was actually a pretty positive sentiment. Sure, it might sound edgy, but celebrating certain dates—especially December 25th—has been around since forever, long before Jesus Christ showed up. It's no secret how various holidays, especially Christian ones, came to be. Even Jesus himself is depicted as Sol Invictus http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datotek..._Invictus.jpeg. So, there's no provocation here; if anything, it's just a basic historical fact.

But that has nothing to do with Christianity or the Christmas we know and celebrate, right?
The deity Sol Invictus ("unconquered sun") isn't related to Christ; it's a pagan god often identified with Mithras, the primary deity of the Greco-Roman mystery cult Mithraism during the reign of the Roman Emperor Aurelian back in 274 AD. It's worth noting that today, that cult is virtually non-existent—at least not in the form it held back then.

This thread was started to celebrate Christmas—the Christian holiday marking the birth of Jesus Christ. Since Nicole James doesn't believe in or follow the cult of Mithraism, but instead identifies as an atheist or anti-theist (and since celebrating on the exact same day wouldn't be called Christmas), it definitely feels like a provocation to those of us who celebrate Christmas.

Thanks for the effort, Daniel Ward87, and for always trying to smooth things over. However, it’s significant that Nicole James doesn't feel the need to offer an explanation or an apology to the people here who expressed their frustration and find her post irrelevant to the topic.
mistyjackal14 mistyjackal14 Active MemberOP
73 messages
joined Aug 2012
#16 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:Neither. I read the text, asked the mods for some clarity, and did a little digging online to get up to speed on the literature.

It wasn't a provocation at all; it was actually a pretty positive sentiment. Sure, it might sound edgy, but celebrating certain dates—especially December 25th—has been around since forever, long before Jesus Christ showed up. It's no secret how various holidays, especially Christian ones, came to be. Even Jesus himself is depicted as Sol Invictus http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datotek..._Invictus.jpeg. So, there's no provocation here; if anything, it's just a basic historical fact.

The thing is, we are celebrating two major milestones today: the birth of Jesus and New Year's.

People can debate whether the birth of Jesus happened exactly then or if it was just a continuation of older traditions, but since that whole argument is pretty pointless, why bother debating it on a forum meant for travelers and just upsetting believers on their holiest day?

As for New Year's, that’s what Nicole James & company were talking about, though it’s strange that on a travel forum, there wasn't much interest in sharing those thoughts with the general public.
Then you have the sunrise of the sun—New Year's—which seems quite logical, doesn't it? 😉
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#17 ·
Susan Price30 said:But that has nothing to do with Christianity or the Christmas we know and celebrate, right?
The deity Sol Invictus ("unconquered sun") isn't related to Christ; it's a pagan god often identified with Mithras, the primary deity of the Greco-Roman mystery cult Mithraism during the reign of the Roman Emperor Aurelian back in 274 AD. It's worth noting that today, that cult is virtually non-existent—at least not in the form it held back then.

This thread was started to celebrate Christmas—the Christian holiday marking the birth of Jesus Christ. Since Nicole James doesn't believe in or follow the cult of Mithraism, but instead identifies as an atheist or anti-theist (and since celebrating on the exact same day wouldn't be called Christmas), it definitely feels like a provocation to those of us who celebrate Christmas.

Thanks for the effort, Daniel Ward87, and for always trying to smooth things over. However, it’s significant that Nicole James doesn't feel the need to offer an explanation or an apology to the people here who expressed their frustration and find her post irrelevant to the topic.

It's true that there isn't much connection to the Christmas we celebrate today. Also, while Sol Invictus isn't tied to Christ, as I mentioned in the link, the idea of bringing Christ closer to pagans by blending religious foundations is an old story—anyone with even a basic understanding of religion knows how that works. Okay, I get that this is a bit off-topic for a holiday greeting thread, but I just wanted to clarify that there was no intentional trolling going on here.

One thing is for sure: Nicole James wasn't trying to be provocative, believe me. However, I suggested keeping the Christmas greetings and similar stuff to a more basic level just to avoid any unnecessary drama.
Morgan Rodriguez57 Morgan Rodriguez57 Active Member
216 messages
joined Oct 2011
#18 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:It's true that there isn't much connection to the Christmas we celebrate today. Also, while Sol Invictus isn't tied to Christ, as I mentioned in the link, the idea of bringing Christ closer to pagans by blending religious foundations is an old story—anyone with even a basic understanding of religion knows how that works. Okay, I get that this is a bit off-topic for a holiday greeting thread, but I just wanted to clarify that there was no intentional trolling going on here.

One thing is for sure: Nicole James wasn't trying to be provocative, believe me. However, I suggested keeping the Christmas greetings and similar stuff to a more basic level just to avoid any unnecessary drama.

haha, yeah right, that's just not how they roll... 🙏 😁

Nicole James said:Look, this isn't some exclusive club reserved solely for believers or high-level theological debates—you can find plenty of those forums out there, whether they focus on Islam, Catholicism, or whatever else. Here, everyone is welcome to dive into discussions about religion regardless of where they stand, and honestly, I think the best conversations happen when we look at things from different angles, not just through a strictly theological lens.

Besides, it seems a bit strange that you're taking issue with the greeting, especially since your access to the religion forum was revoked. I really hope you aren't resorting to using clones again to get around things.😉

that argument doesn't really hold water... all those other specialized subreddits try to maintain certain standards, whereas this religion forum feels more like a random message board that just lets the usual spammers run wild...
Anthony Perez9 Anthony Perez9 Regular
311 messages
joined Apr 2019
#19 ·
mistyjackal14 said:The thing is, we are celebrating two major milestones today: the birth of Jesus and New Year's.

People can debate whether the birth of Jesus happened exactly then or if it was just a continuation of older traditions, but since that whole argument is pretty pointless, why bother debating it on a forum meant for travelers and just upsetting believers on their holiest day?

As for New Year's, that’s what Nicole James & company were talking about, though it’s strange that on a travel forum, there wasn't much interest in sharing those thoughts with the general public.
Then you have the sunrise of the sun—New Year's—which seems quite logical, doesn't it? 😉

There isn't a direct link to New Year's (maybe just indirectly).

We're talking about the rebirth of the sun around the winter sunset—the solstice around December 21st.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice.

After three days and nights, the sun is reborn, meaning the days start getting longer again—it's the victory of the sun—Christmas—the birth of a young god. Christmas doesn't have to be strictly a Catholic date for celebration. 👍
swiftcrane96 swiftcrane96 Active Member
111 messages
joined Mar 2012
#20 ·
Morgan Rodriguez57 said:haha, yeah right, that's just not how they roll... 🙏 😁

that argument doesn't really hold water... all those other specialized subreddits try to maintain certain standards, whereas this religion forum feels more like a random message board that just lets the usual spammers run wild...

Exactly.

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