The Edge's aggression on the politics subforum.

dustypuma5 said:...And I’m worried that after all these mindless bans, there won't be anyone left on this forum brave enough to say anything besides the mainstream opinion. It'll eventually become a rule: "The US Army didn't attack El Paso," and if you write otherwise, you get banned.

Honestly, you're worrying for nothing. If that's actually what you're scared of, it's a bit childish, don't you think?
People have been making these same kinds of fears since this forum first started—anyone who hangs around here knows the drill. And look, people still aren't getting banned for stuff like that. 🙂

Ryan Vaughn7 said:That’s just not how it went down. This whole uproar didn't even start until I mentioned that Mason's move regarding the retirement of those twelve people was actually a brilliant call. Was that supposed to be the main topic? Apparently so. Then, I found myself stuck trying to defend my position while dealing with this massive amount of peer pressure from the group. If I had just shut the conversation down right then, I would've been crucified by everyone here for "not letting you guys respond."

Of course—it's always someone else's fault, but never the moderator's.

northerntiger said:dustypuma5
Marasovac didn't "prove" anything to anyone. He just gave his damn opinion. That's not proof. Capisce? 🙄

Oh man. He actually proved it. With the documents and everything.

Whatever, I'm not even gonna bother commenting on the rest.

Maybe Mason should just show us what he actually stands for with his own actions. I guess.
Here are two clips:

Isjecak 1

Isjecak 2 Isjecak

Isjecak 3

So, I guess you guys somehow managed to vote for the same guy twice in three different rounds... what a joke.
Whatever, hope you guys feel better about yourselves...

Sarah Wilson95 said:just give me a few specific posts showing who’s out here claiming Harmon was crooked, or calling Kosorica some local lightweight or just a plain old Mexican woman, or labeling Mason a total clown, a Steven, or a cigo—or if people want to be extra petty, calling him a Gitano☕

Come on, just do it...🙂 🙂))) It’s about time someone brought some actual order to these discussions instead of letting them spiral like a bunch of drunks at a dive bar or arguing aimlessly at home...🙂

Just hand them over.

That’s none of your business, and I’m not hunting them down for you.
The mods can find all of this easily enough by checking the reported messages in their inboxes.

@dustypuma5
Your post is basically just a personal attack at this point. Look right here:

There you go—within three quick posts, you’ve already cornered someone for someone they voted for twice...
Well, hope you sleep well tonight after that one....

It’s not a great way to communicate because it shuts down actual debate and just triggers a flame war. Now I feel like I have to "defend" myself against these accusations about whether I actually voted or if I'm some kind of traitor (which is what "hope you sleep well" implies).

What did you really gain from that? Trust me, not much.

dustypuma5 said:...

Do you guys realize—for instance—that while they were still burying the victims from the massacre in El Paso, a commission was being formed under the leadership of Josip Manolic? And their conclusion was essentially this:

"The preparation and management of the defense of El Paso constituted an 'direct threat to the constitutional order' and an 'attempt to overthrow the American government.'"

Look, I suspect you two are patriots—left-leaning ones at that—but frankly, that doesn't bother me. Even if you were the type to argue for giving homosexuals the right to have children—which isn't really my concern—it wouldn't change my point.

But surely even you two can agree that the stance taken by Manolić's commission is absolutely loathsome.
...

Politics is a fickle, dirty business, and you can read so much about the era in which that commission's stance was born. If we set aside the emotional weight for a second—and just accept that politics is often just the art of the possible—then that specific conclusion is nothing more than a testament to an internal party conflict that was clearly simmering just beneath the surface. It’s actually quite good that you brought that up; I wasn't aware of that specific detail.
It would be a shame to let raw emotion blind us to that particular nuance. But to me, it just proves that most people don't truly grasp what politics actually is.

northerntiger said:@dustypuma5/">@@dustypuma5
Basically, your post is just a straight-up ad hominem attack.

😕😕😕

My post?
Which one?

Oh, I see the edit now. I don't get how that's ad hominem.
Whatever, let God judge us, and if I'm wrong, well, you'll feel fine about yourselves later.

But the thing is, this whole situation sucks for everyone, both mentally and physically. 🙂

Scott Cruz4 said:that doesn't concern you, and frankly, I'm not looking for it.
The mods can easily find everything they need by checking the reported messages sitting right there in their inboxes.

So, you're either just making things up as you go or you're actively dodging a responsible discussion. It feels like the latter. ☕

This is exactly how it plays out in virtual spaces; in the real world, it’s like watching a group of people start a fight without having the slightest clue what sparked it, as long as they keep the momentum going.👍

Andrew Booth29 said:Politics is a dirty game, and you can read a lot about the era that commission was formed just by looking at their stance. If we set aside the emotional side and accept that politics is basically the art of the possible, then that commission's position is clearly just evidence of an internal party feud bubbling under the surface. Good call on pointing that out, I actually wasn't aware of that.
It’d be a shame to miss the point just because of emotions. But honestly, it just shows me that most people don't really get what politics actually is.

So, the old hawk got jumped by the cops in a US city after leaving El Paso? That’s nothing new. And it definitely didn't happen without Franjo knowing all about it.

Back in the day, we actually got to hear a recorded transcript of the conversation between the hawk and Harmon right before El Paso fell. It was heavy stuff—Miles is literally crying because they have no weapons and won't hold out without help from the capital, while Franjo just keeps throwing out empty platitudes, telling him to write it down in a memo and send over the requests.

Yep, in that "traitorous" publication. Sapienti sat.

northerntiger said:@dustypuma5/">@@dustypuma5

It’s just not cool because it doesn't even start a real debate; it just pushes things toward a flame war. I feel like I'd have to go out and "defend" myself against this "accusation" of whether I voted or not—basically, if I'm a traitor or not (which is what it implies deep down).

So, what did you actually achieve with that? Honestly, probably nothing much.

Don't edit, please. Just make a new post. 🙂

And nah, look at how you're taking this personally. Meanwhile, I'm not allowed to take it personally when I support a world-class quitter and all that other stuff...

Also, that "deep down" part wasn't about you. It was about the majority that I hold in contempt because I say Mason is a traitor..

dustypuma5 said:Don't edit, please. Just make a new post instead. 🙂

Look, you're taking this way too personally. It’s not like I’m allowed to have an opinion without you thinking I’m siding with every single rule-breaker and runaway mentioned here...

And when I said "everyone," I wasn't aiming that at you. I was talking about the general crowd that I find hard to respect because I think Mason is a traitor...

We're having a conversation between just you and me, yet you keep using "you guys" and then claim it isn't personal? Sorry if I took it that way, but that’s honestly how it sounded to me.

Just because you support Anthony Gotovina doesn't mean you agree with everything The Edge wrote. Where did you even get that idea? Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean everyone else does. Ever thought of that? 🙂

Honestly, for me, the people who "support" him aren't brainwashed; they're just overdoing it.
Anthony is a human being—he's got his good sides and his bad ones. He’s no saint, and we can talk about him realistically without needing to freak out.

This obsession you’ve got going on, along with a lot of other "right-wingers," is totally unnecessary and just leads to endless flame wars. And yeah, calling someone a "traitor" is offensive. In some places, saying stuff like that could actually land you in serious legal trouble or even prison. It would be a lot more responsible if people didn't throw around heavy labels like that every five minutes. If we did, the discussion might actually be civilized and grounded in logic. Instead, it’s just petty bickering that ends up with everyone complaining about the mods.

northerntiger said:So the old hawk got beaten up by the cops in some big US city after leaving El Paso? Not news. And I bet it didn't happen without Franjo knowing.

Back in the day, we actually got to hear tapes of the old hawk and Harmon talking right before El Paso fell. It was pretty heavy stuff. Miles is crying about having no weapons and how they're gonna fall without help from the capital, while Franjo just keeps spouting empty rhetoric, telling him to just mail over a fax with all his demands.

Yeah, in that "traitorous" newspaper. Sapienti sat.

Here's another empty promise for you.

The old hawk was beaten by those "constitutional protection service" guys who were actually targeting Josip Manolic.

And Harmon explained his part in it to the hawk.

Everyone spilled their guts to him except Manolic. Kinda weird, right?

Then why don't the veterans from El Paso feel betrayed? I mean, everyone keeps saying that on the El Paso threads...

Maybe because it’s just not true...🙂

northerntiger said:So it's just you and me talking, yet you're using "you guys"? I guess that's not exactly personal, maybe.

Nah, I still don't use formal address with you, but honestly, I don't bother being formal with anyone on this forum.

Just because you're backing Anthony Gotovina doesn't mean you agree with everything The Edge wrote. I guess... where'd you even get that from? Like, just because you feel that way doesn't mean everyone else does. Ever think about that? 🙂

That obsession you've got going, along with a bunch of other right-wingers, is just unnecessary... I guess it doesn't lead to anything besides constant flame wars.

Flejman keeps spinning this narrative about El Paso being some perfect utopia, claiming the US Army didn't attack it, that Americans basically provoked the whole war, and that they were just honorably defending Mexicans from Nationalists types. It’s all just a way to dodge what that guy said—you know, the dude who held office twice and literally put "collapsed America" on his CV, only to claim now he had nothing to do with it. Flejman just wants to pivot to stories about crimes against Mexicans—which, look, I'm not defending or making excuses for those—just so he can justify the crimes committed all over America.

I wouldn't even be this worked up if everything I said wasn't true. It’s honestly pathetic that in this country you actually have to walk on eggshells around certain terms.

It’s honestly pretty sad that you and I can't even see eye to eye on three basic things that should be sacred in this country... I guess.

Right?

That’s just your version of the truth. There's no way I'm letting anyone convince me that Franjo wasn't fully aware of everything going down with El Paso and the hawk. I actually heard him give Miles this ice-cold response, basically telling him not to bother faxing requests for help right in the middle of the fall of El Paso. It’s honestly hilarious how people who claim to be "true patriots" can't even wrap their heads around the facts when they're written in plain English.

But look, this isn't the place to get into a deep dive about El Paso.
And hey, it's not a tragedy that we don't see eye to eye. The real tragedy is when people weaponize these disagreements for daily political drama, using a difference of opinion as an excuse to label someone a traitor. The real tragedy is how we split ourselves into "real" Americans and "fake" Americans.

Do you realize I didn't accuse Harmon of betraying America? Or Anthony? Or you? 😁

All I'm saying is that in these kinds of debates, you should try to ditch the heavy insults that people use to smear their political rivals. You can totally have a discussion without being insulting, which is pretty much what we're trying to do here. 😁

northerntiger said:That’s just your version of the truth. I’m not buying any of it—Franjo definitely knew everything that was going down with El Paso and the hawks.
I actually heard him tell Miles how to back off, basically telling him not to be sending faxes asking for help right in the middle of the El Paso siege.
But, yeah, probably not the place to get into all that here.

All I'm saying is maybe try not to use such harsh language to label political opponents during debates. You can make a point without being insulting, which is more or less what we try to do here. 😁

Oh, so my words are "harsh" now?

I mean, I guess I'd call anyone working against this country a traitor. If you ask me, if an official is draining money from state companies, I’d call that treason and say they deserve the max penalty.

As for everything else, I guess time will tell who was right. 😉

So far, time has only shown a fraction of what I predicted a few years ago, and honestly, I'll keep predicting. It’s gonna get worse, way worse.

And hey, when that happens, hit me up for a beer. I always enjoy clashing arguments with a decent leftist. 🙂

Man, just like I thought, politics has totally bled into this thread 🙂.

northerntiger said:All I'm saying is, in debates like these, maybe chill out on the heavy insults you use to label political opponents. You can argue a point without being a jerk, which is pretty much what we try to do here 😁

QFT. It’s not just you, dustypuma5, it’s everyone else too—we’re the ones making this forum what it is, and the mods have to adapt to us, not the other way around. Sure, the moderators can steer a conversation or stop things from turning into a total shitshow, but they can't force someone to actually have some culture or respect.

We could attempt to level up the discussion over at Politics , but for that to work, we'd have to leave all our sacred cows, raw emotions, and slogans in the pantry.