2010 World Handball Championship: USA vs. Denmark (27-23)

And I’m still sitting here waiting for someone to explain how Gojunov's penalty somehow justifies Zrnic's penalty too. Makes total sense, right?

Adam Collins4 said:And I’m also quite delighted by the logic suggesting that because Gojun was sent off, Zrnic had to be too. What a brilliant connection.

Well, strictly speaking... the prior event dictates what follows. That penalty certainly wouldn't have unfolded quite like that if everything leading up to it hadn't happened exactly as it did. Everything is interconnected in this, ah, chaotic universe of ours... much like how a butterfly flapping its wings in China might trigger a massive storm on the other side of the globe...

Though I suspect Josip Miljkovic didn't mean it quite that deeply... 😁

Man, those guys from the South just absolutely crushed it! Buntic and Alilovic were totally tearing up the floor!

Adam Collins4 said:So you're going to lecture me on what constitutes a wrong answer? You don't even have a single day of officiating experience under your belt. Maybe get it together...

Comparing the EP to the World Cup...

Before every tournament, there's a seminar, and they're all different from one another...

Look, before you start lecturing me about being wrong, maybe try studying the actual facts instead of just twisting my words to fit whatever narrative you've cooked up...

Let's be clear here. I've never played handball, let alone officiated it. I'm not trying to lecture you; I'm simply relaying what I've been told by referees, players, coaches, and people who actually understand the game. I won't go into how I ended up in those circles for five years, but I was there. So, I'm not "lecturing" you—I'm telling you what competent professionals have told me. Honestly, I haven't sat down and stared into Dusebaj's eyes to get the inside scoop, but I have spoken with several top-tier officials—not just Americans, for the record. And some coaches, too. Not to mention the players. Again, people have told me things, and I can draw my own conclusions—I'm not blind, after all.

You're trying to reduce this whole thing to a debate over who's making mistakes.
That isn't accurate.
The players are incredibly fair, which is why they hate being cheated—and it shows.

Jose Booth48 said:Look, honestly... that last thing that went down? It’s basically setting the stage for what's coming next. There is absolutely no way that shutdown would have played out like that if everything hadn't been spiraling exactly the way it has up to this point. Everything is just... interconnected in this chaotic universe of ours—it's like that old theory where a butterfly flapping its wings in China could trigger a massive storm halfway across the world.

But I honestly don't think Joseph meant it like that... 😁

I know you're just joking around... but if you want me to actually sit here and give you a serious answer...

If you honestly think Gojunov and Zrnic are even playing in the same league when it comes to fouls—I mean, if they were actually committing the same kind of infractions—then we might actually have something worth discussing regarding accountability. But let's be real here.

Look, Gojun got tossed out because he went too hard on one of the players—just a straight-up foul.

And then there’s Zrnic—acting like he’s above the fray while playing dirty...

And honestly, you just can't justify benching someone like that—especially when he knew damn well that move would leave the national team playing shorthanded. It’s just bad logic.

That’s just pure, unadulterated lack of thought... honestly.

Robert Cruz5 said:Let’s be totally honest here. I’ve never even played handball, let alone officiated it. What I’m telling you isn't just my own opinion—it’s what various referees, players, coaches, and anyone actually worth their salt in the sport have told me. Now, I won't get into how I ended up hanging out with that crowd for five years, but I was there. So, I’m not just talking nonsense; I’m relaying what competent professionals have said to me about certain situations. To be honest, I haven't sat down for a heart-to-heart with some soul stealer while staring into his squinty eyes, but I have spoken with several top-tier referees—not just Americans, let's be clear—as well as some coaches. And don't even get me started on the players. Again, I'm repeating this: people told me these things, and some of it I can figure out for myself—I'm not blind, after all.

You're trying to boil everything down to who's doing what and who's making mistakes.
But that's just not how it works.
Handball players are incredibly fair people, which is why they hate being cheated, and it shows.

No, what I'm actually trying to say is that you can't just compare two different games or two different leagues...

Or act like someone's getting preferential treatment during seminars or whatever else...

Every league operates under its own specific set of guidelines...

Yet you keep obsessively bringing up Bajramović and Dance, and then Bajramović and the Frenchmen...

Come on, man, please understand that officiating criteria are judged based on the totality of decisions made in a single game... it's not about cherry-picking a few calls and jumping back and forth between them.

And frankly, who you used to grab drinks with is irrelevant here. I was a major league referee and a major league supervisor myself—my mentors were officials unlike anything the US has seen in decades, and probably won't see again anytime soon...

But I'm not throwing that in your face as "proof" in this debate...

Adam Collins4 said:And I’m also just thrilled by the logic suggesting that Gojunov's ejection was somehow the direct cause of Zrnic's ejection.

I don't see what there is to be thrilled about. At the end of the day, this isn't really about Gojunov being sent off—it's about the fact that there wasn't even a foul, let alone one worth a two-minute penalty. Ten seconds later, the Danes move to create a numbers advantage on the wing. Since the US is playing shorthanded, Zrnic can't get there in time and ends up using his foot to stop it.

Now, if Gojunov hadn't been unfairly and systematically ejected by those Ceh refs, we wouldn't be down a player, the Danes wouldn't have found that offensive solution, and that would be that—six goals and done. But since the officials are handing out unjust ejections, Zrnic isn't in position. With the extra man, the Danes find an opening that Zrnic is forced to block with his foot. Technically, the two-minute call is "justified," but that situation wouldn't have even happened if we were at full strength and Zrnic was where he was supposed to be; the Danes would have just faced a passive defense. They probably wouldn't have scored more than 20, and the game would be settled. Instead, because of a massive officiating blunder, we've essentially jeopardized a game that was rightfully ours.

Unless, of course, you think playing two men down is just some minor detail—which, honestly, wouldn't surprise me coming from you.

That much is clear. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. And frankly, I'm not sure which one of us is the one talking nonsense here.

Robert Cruz5 said:I don't see what there is to celebrate here. Honestly, this isn't even about Gojun getting tossed—it’s about the fact that it wasn't even a foul, let alone a two-minute penalty. Ten seconds later, the Americans go to create an overlap on the wing. And because we're playing down a man, Zrnic can't cover it properly and ends up using his foot to stop it.

Look, if Gojun hadn't been sent off by those Ceh guys—which was completely uncalled for and totally planned—we wouldn't be shorthanded, the Americans wouldn't have found that offensive solution, and that would be that. Case closed. But since the refs are handing out penalties for nothing, Zrnic isn't where he needs to be. With the extra man advantage, the Americans find an opening that Zrnic has to block with his foot. Sure, the two-minute penalty is "justified" in that moment, but it never happens if we're at full strength and Zrnic is actually in position. If it were just passive play, they might have scored 20 goals on the wing and called it a day. Instead, thanks to a massive officiating blunder, we nearly threw away a game we absolutely deserved to win.

Unless, of course, you think being down two players is just some minor detail—which, frankly, wouldn't surprise me coming from you.

That much is obvious. It's like saying the sky is blue. Seriously, ref, I have no idea who's actually making sense here, you or me.

So, you're telling me it's smarter to just lift your leg and block the ball, rather than letting it reach the winger whose confidence our goalie just absolutely shattered?

It's obviously better to stop the ball that way—even knowing it's an automatic two minutes and leaves us two men short—than to just concede a goal...

It's pretty clear you've never actually played handball, based on how you're talking...

Zrnic could have let the ball pass; instead, he lifted his leg and earned himself a penalty in the most brainless way possible...

And yeah, he could have stopped it with his foot without getting a two-minute call...

Bottom line: there's no excuse...

Adam Collins4 said:I know you're joking... but if I'm going to give you a serious answer here...

If Gojunov and Zrnic's infractions were even remotely in the same category, we might actually be able to talk about accountability...

But Gojun was ejected for an infraction against a player...

While Zrnic was out for unsportsmanlike conduct...

And you can't justify that by pointing to someone else's ejection—especially when he knew full well he’d leave the US national team shorthanded on the court...

It's just pure lack of judgment...

Only the ref saw the foul. Even you didn't see it—you admitted that yourself two hours ago. And as for where I'm getting this from, I'm not trying to brag; I'm just saying I don't claim to be some genius, but I've been told things by people who actually know more about handball than I do. Honestly, I don't feel like arguing with you anymore because you'll just claim I'm writing this from a biased fan perspective, which isn't the case.

I'm just tired of hearing this nonsense that everything is solely the fault of one man and his incompetence—that we could have won more with these players. We couldn't. We won as much as was possible, maybe even more. Ivan Balic is the only one who actually said that publicly. Everyone else? Silent as the grave.

People can draw whatever conclusions they want from this debate between us. Personally, I'm done messaging these supposed handball legends who used to sit down and talk with Tantal Dusebaj.

I just hope that tomorrow and the day after, the officiating standards remain consistent for us and our opponents alike. That's all. Let the best team win. Peace.

Robert Cruz5 said:Only the ref saw the foul. You didn't even see it yourself—you admitted that just two hours ago. And look, when I tell you where I'm getting this stuff from, it’s not because I’m trying to pat myself on the back. It’s just that I’m not some genius; I’m just repeating things I’ve heard from people who actually know way more about handball than I ever will. Honestly, I don't even feel like arguing with you anymore, because you'll just claim I'm being a biased fan, which isn't the case.

The point is, I'm just done listening to this nonsense that everything is one guy's fault or his sheer incompetence. As if we could have won more with these players. We couldn't. We won exactly what was possible, maybe even more. Ivan Balic is the only one on our side who actually said that out loud. Everyone else? They're staying quiet as usual.

People can draw whatever conclusions they want from this back-and-forth between us. Personally, I’ve had enough back-and-forth with "handball legends" who used to go toe-to-toe with Tantal Dusebaj.

All I'm hoping for is that tomorrow and the day after, the officiating criteria stay consistent for both us and our opponents. That's it. Let the best team win. Later.

Talant...

And plenty of our refs have talked to him...

I am just trying to explain to you that you can't justify Zrnic's reaction—using his feet—by citing a previous ejection, even if that ejection hadn't even happened...

It's like if I randomly slapped you on the court, got a red card, and then someone tried to justify my behavior by saying my teammate had been ejected moments before...

That doesn't fly. That's just my own decision and plain stupidity...

Adam Collins4 said:So, you think it’s smarter to just stick a leg out and take the penalty than to let the ball go to the winger—especially since our goalie's confidence is already shot?

It’s obviously better to take the two-minute suspension and play down a man than to just give up a goal...

The way you talk, I’m guessing you’ve never actually played handball...

Grain could have just let the ball pass; instead, he stuck his foot out and earned a penalty in the most idiotic way possible...

And yeah, he could've stopped it with his foot without getting called for two minutes...

So, no excuses...

Look, I already said I haven't. Not sure what there is to see here. I haven't played, nor have I refereed. As for whether it was smart or not—that was my thought the exact second he did it. I thought, "Man, what an idiot, just let the winger have it." But then I remembered I'm sitting here with my head in the TV while Grain is out there on the court. If Grain were sitting in an armchair, he probably wouldn't have used his foot—he would have had time to think. But when things are Hot, you just act on instinct. Even if you're thinking about it from another room while watching TV, you wouldn't make that move.

A Hot person does things they wouldn't do if they were calm. It's just how it works.

Adam Collins4 said:Pure talent...

And plenty of our officials have actually spoken with him...

Look, I'm just trying to explain that you can't justify Zrnić's spontaneous reaction on the pitch by pointing to a red card that happened earlier—even if that red card actually occurred...

It’s like if I suddenly slap someone during a game, get an X, and then someone tries to excuse it because my teammate was sent off a moment before...

That doesn't fly; it's my own decision and, frankly, just stupidity...

This is a textbook example of cause and effect.

Robert Cruz5 said:And if I’m remembering things right, before all that, Zdravko Zovko was absolutely killing it at the World Championships held in Washington, D.C., coming in at an impressive 7th place back then.

Vara

He took 6th at the European championships, and he actually managed to snag 5th place during his run to Sydney (Canada) 😉

I've had enough for one evening. I've been working too hard—you've honestly worn me out. Later.

Gregory Ramos3 said:Scam

They were 6th at the European championship, but they were 5th when they headed to Sydney (Australia) 😉

I guess you're right. It'll probably turn out that way—we were actually pretty solid, taking 6th in Washington, D.C.🙏

Terry Fisher2 said:Check out this 1:00 AM recording from an American news channel

👋🍿

Robert Cruz5 said:Look, I already told you—I didn't. I don't see what the big deal is. I wasn't out there playing, nor was I officiating. Whether what you're saying is brilliant or just plain stupid is beside the point. Honestly, I had the exact same thought the second he did it. I was thinking, "Man, what an idiot, just let the winger go." But then it hit me—I’m sitting here with my head buried in the TV while Zrnić is actually out there on the court. If Zrnić were sitting in an armchair like me, he probably wouldn't be playing soccer with the ball—he'd have realized better. But when things get intense, when you're feeling the heat, you just act on instinct. You could be thinking about the same thing while sitting in another room watching the TV, but you definitely wouldn't pull it off like that.

When a guy is playing hot, he does stuff he'd never dream of doing if he were just chilling. It's just how it works.

So how can you be so sure he wouldn't have done the same thing with any other player on the team?

Take someone like Vori, for example—when he’s sprinting back on defense and takes out an attacker from behind right in front of the goal, even though he's over 20 yards away from Alilović's net...

That isn't some "instinctive" consequence—it's just pure stupidity...

Being a professional means having the brain to actually think through your moves...☕

Terry Rodriguez41 said:🙏🙏🙏

Feel free to let me know which game you're talking about—I'm all ears. 🙏🙏🙏

I told everyone what needed to be said a long time ago—honestly, I think I called this one back when we were all still figuring things out.

I was looking back at some old discussions—you know how it goes, scrolling through archives when you've got too much time on your hands—and I started thinking about that whole situation from 2010. It’s funny how things shift over time, isn't it? One minute everything seems set in stone, and the next, the entire landscape looks different. It reminds me of those long-winded debates we used to have about market volatility—not just here in the States, but globally. You see a pattern, think you've cracked the code, and then reality hits you like a sudden thunderstorm in the Midwest. It’s rarely as linear as we want it to be. Anyway, I saw what Robert Cruz5 was saying earlier about the recent shifts. It’s an interesting take—definitely worth chewing on—but I can't help but wonder if we're missing the forest for the trees. We tend to get so caught up in the individual data points that we forget the broader trend is often driven by much larger, quieter forces. Like watching the tide come in; you can track every single wave, but eventually, the water level just... rises. Simple as that.

ambercanyon3 said:I already said what needed to be said!

Then he messed up—since there isn't a hundred percent guarantee anymore...

ambercanyon3 said:I think I made my point a while ago!

Well, I don't know if you really expressed yourself clearly there, but I suppose you can't exactly maintain the same level of quality all the time, right?🤣