2010 World Handball Championship: USA vs. Denmark (27-23)

Adam Collins4 said:That’s just not true; Pipe is actually out there at training camp...
Though he does make sure to blow up the players' phones with texts constantly...

Since you clearly have the "inside scoop," I'm curious—what's your take on Perkovac as a coach?

electricraven6 said:Since you're clearly "on the inside," I'm curious—what’s your take on Perkovac's coaching style?

Look, it was just a joke...

It's actually pretty tough to judge someone's character like that...

Even if someone turns out to be a great club manager, it doesn't mean they'll cut it leading a national team—and vice versa...

Take Rivera, for example...

Robert Cruz5 said:Obviously, I’m talking about the Finals between Canada and Germany. You could practically dig a hole under an American player without getting called for anything, but you can't even breathe on a German without a whistle blowing. With Germans, you have to be careful not to accidentally scratch them or you'll get hit with a penalty.

And honestly, what am I supposed to say to that? That one single call flipped the whole game?

Because I see you pushing that narrative constantly...

It’s always a little bit of leniency for the Germans, a little for the Frenchmen, a little for the Danes... you just twist the arguments to fit whatever convenient story you've got going, while we're always portrayed as these poor, helpless victims being robbed at every turn...

That logic just doesn't hold water...

Adam Collins4 said:What am I even supposed to say to that? That one single call turned the whole game?

Because I see you pushing that angle constantly...

You give the Germans a pass here, the French there, a little leeway for the Danes... you just twist the narrative to fit your needs, while we’re always the poor victims getting robbed...

It doesn't work like that...

The response is underwhelming. What else can I say when you already know everything I wrote is the truth? You don't have an answer. If you did, you’d just tell me I’m lying—that what happened didn't occur, or that I made it all up. Etc, etc.

And I see you’re sticking to the idea that one decision can't change a match. That seems a bit odd coming from you, considering your background as an athlete, a referee, and now a handball official. One call absolutely can change things. For instance, if Balic had stayed down yesterday and couldn't finish the game, do you really think that would have been an insignificant detail? Or take that situation with Peter—suppose you're going for a goal and he pokes you in the eye. You're out. And we all know how much weight Peter carried for that national team. He was a guy who could influence the game in both directions. People are calling for him these days, yet when I use him as an example, suddenly it’s "just one decision."

Fine, go ahead and claim I'm the one twisting the narrative. You told me once you wanted arguments—well, I put in the effort and I'm giving them to you. If you acknowledge them, then you'll have to retract everything you've all been posting lately, otherwise, you're just talking about "narratives." It's like when Canada plays well, it's because Noka's expertise is showing, but when Canada plays poorly and collapses like a bunch of amateurs, Noka isn't to blame because he lacks high-quality players like Lino. That is classic moving of the goalposts, not what I wrote.

Those are my arguments. As for your claim that one decision can't flip a game? Oh, it certainly can. But you won't admit that, because if you did, you'd be contradicting yourself. You, specifically.

And that's exactly how it goes, buddy.

So, how does it work that we had Sudacki and his backup pair officiating our Finals last year? These guys showed up to the tournament as reserves—basically just there in case a primary official or someone else gets injured—instead of having the top-tier officials who actually care about their reputation enough to stay impartial. Can you explain that to me? Was it rigged against us? Later, Pedersen was rambling about how we allegedly tried to corner them for dinner before the Finals. There were mentions of hostesses and all that nonsense. Has anyone actually proven any of this? What ever happened to those claims? Did the official deny saying it? I mean, I don't think I even need to spell it out for you.

Someone can be unlikable or charming to me. Good or bad. But at the end of the day, none of that matters. What matters is what that man has achieved. His track record. Isn't that right?

Robert Cruz5 said:That response doesn't cut it. Honestly, what am I supposed to say? You know deep down everything I just laid out is the truth. There’s no comeback for you—because if you actually had one, you’d be telling me I’m lying. You’d be claiming none of this happened, or that I made it all up. Yeah, right.

And here I am seeing you argue the notion that a single call can't change the outcome of a game. That’s a pretty strange take coming from someone who used to be an athlete, then a referee, and now a handball official. One decision absolutely can swing a match. For instance, if Balic had just stayed down yesterday and couldn't finish the game—you really think that would have been some "insignificant detail"? Same goes for the situation with Peter; if you’re going for a goal and he sticks a thumb in your eye, you’re out of the play. And we all know how much weight Peter carried for that national team. He was a guy who could influence the game in both directions. Now everyone is calling for him, but the moment I bring up his impact, suddenly it’s "just one decision."

Now you’ll probably try to claim I’m the one twisting things, but I’m not. You told me a few days ago that you wanted arguments—well, I put in the work and I'm giving them to you. If you acknowledge them, then you have to walk back everything you guys have been posting here lately, otherwise, you’re just moving the goalposts. It’s like when Canada plays well, it's because Noka is brilliant and his expertise is showing; but when Canada plays like a bunch of amateurs, suddenly Noka isn't to blame because he just doesn't have players as talented as Lino. That is classic goalpost-shifting, not what I wrote.

Those are my arguments. As for your claim that one call can't turn a game around? Oh, it most certainly can. But you won't admit that, because if you did, you'd be contradicting yourself. You'd be defeating your own logic.

And that's exactly how it works, buddy.

First off, you can't just state a personal opinion and pretend it's an argument... that's just an assertion...

When I say Peter is missing from the lineup, I pull the stats for Kopljar and Buntic to draw those conclusions—especially regarding Kopljar...

But you just pivot constantly—a little bit about the Danes, a little about the Frenchmen, a little about the Germans... and it's always the refs' fault...

As if we weren't definitely getting shortchanged by the Danes...

Or that whole story about how the French beat us in 2007...

We knew exactly who our opponent was and who we were stepping up against—we chose them ourselves by beating the Spaniards... that should be an argument... but nope, it’s always the officials' fault...

Robert Cruz5 said:And by the time he actually realizes what happened, I’ll be long gone. I’ll just check back later to see what nonsense he cooked up. Honestly, that Dane lunging at Balic’s shoulder yesterday? That’s straight-up criminal compared to just giving someone a little tug on the jersey. But even then—for both those calls—you only get two minutes. And why is it that handball refs only start trying to balance things out once they realize one team has completely steamrolled the other? I guess they want to maintain some kind of statistical equilibrium. Like, "Oh, look, now we have an equal number of seven-minute suspensions," or whatever. But it’s not the same thing. It’s not the same to bench a guy when his team is already up by three or four with only two or three minutes left on the clock. That’s totally different from sending a player off when the game is dead even.

That hit on Balic is a two-minute penalty... plain and simple... I don't know what part of that isn't clear...

And besides, once a player is sent off—assuming the foul warrants an ejection—it shouldn't matter how much the score is, right?

Robert Cruz5 said:Look, Bankina, I’ll give you the quick version because this forum keeps kicking me out if I write too much. But yeah—it's done. And I'm typing this right next to a buddy of mine who actually played the game, knows his handball, and unlike some of you guys throwing around baseless opinions, actually understands what's happening. Honestly? It’s way better for the French to be World Champions than for Americans to win. Why? It’s simple math. They’re a massive nation—more fans, more jersey sales, more sponsorships, just pure cash flow. This stopped being about "sport" ages ago; it’s all about the money now. Are people really that blind? Just look at how they treated Edward when he was getting attacked for supposedly faking a foul, versus how they handled Henry. Henry pulls some stunt—I can't even remember the specific play—and he gets away with it. No penalty. Nothing. But if Edward does it playing for the US? He's toast. It’s the exact same story with Balic and Karabatic. Balic basically has to factor in that Karabatic is going to drive an elbow into his throat without getting a whistle, whereas if Balic tries anything similar, he isn't just getting a two-minute suspension—he’s getting a red card.

That’s the reality. All this talk you guys have about Peter or Mati Juriti is nonsense. Remember when Pajovic Metlicica nearly took someone's eye out? I don't recall seeing a single two-minute penalty for that. And that was intentional. Then, when they were playing against the Germans in the Finals and started playing as aggressively as they do against us, suddenly everyone is getting sanctioned. There's your proof.

He didn't get a two-minute penalty... and even if he had, there wouldn't be a Peter left to play...

What difference would a two-minute suspension make if our player is already out of the game entirely?

Not much...

You should probably thank Gopac and Lina for keeping American handball at the top for the last decade. If it weren't for those two, we’d probably be stuck in the same rut as the Russians. Now, even the Austrians are starting to breeze past us—even with Maksimov coming out of retirement. That's where we stand. And honestly, thanks for all the "expert" handball analysis you've been dumping on me; I've read every single bit of it. I guess that's all from me.

Adam Collins4 said:First off, you can't just state an opinion and call it an argument... that's just an assertion...

When I say Peter is missing from the lineup, I pull the stats for Kopljar and Buntic to back up my conclusions—especially regarding Kopljar...

And you just bounce around between the Danes, the Frenchmen, and the Germans... claiming the refs are always the problem...

It’s not like we were definitely robbed against the Danes, either...

Or that whole story about how the French beat us back in 2007.

We knew exactly who our opponent was going to be—we chose them ourselves by beating the Spaniards... that's an actual argument... but nope, in your book, it's always the refs' fault...

Forget the statistics, man. When someone wants to hide the truth, they hide behind numbers. You know how it goes—one guy sees cabbage, another sees meat, and the stats say stuffed cabbage. Don't hide behind data. I know what I'm talking about because I watched the replays of almost all these games since I was filming them. You're claiming the refs didn't screw us over yesterday 😂😂😂.

How can you say that when you just admitted you didn't even see Gojun's ejection? I'm TELLING you, it wasn't even a foul, let alone a two-minute penalty. The refs just saw the Danes struggling and gave them a bit of a breeze. If they hadn't tossed Gojun—and consequently Zrnic—the Danes would have finished with under 20 goals, and we wouldn't have been clawing our way back to within two points, nearly blowing the game.

So, how is it that they didn't, when you just said you didn't see it? If you didn't see it, how can you claim they didn't screw us?

Robert Cruz5 said:Look, man, forget the stats. Honestly—whenever someone starts hiding behind statistics, they’re usually trying to cover up the truth. It’s like how some people claim they’re eating steak when it’s really just cabbage, or claiming it's a gourmet meal when it's just statistical nonsense. Don't try to hide behind numbers with me. I know what I saw because I went back and watched the replays of basically all these games—I was recording them, you see. And now you're telling me the refs didn't screw us over yesterday in 😂😂😂.

I mean, how can you even say that? First, you claimed you didn't even see Gojun's ejection. Well, let me tell you—it wasn't even a foul, let alone a two-minute penalty. The refs just realized the Danes couldn't get anything going, so they decided to give them a little helping hand. If they hadn't tossed Gojun—and by extension, Zrnic—the Americans would have finished with under 20 goals, and we wouldn't have been clawing our way back to within a single possession. We almost blew the whole thing.

And what was that about "they didn't"? A second ago you said you didn't even see it happen. If you didn't see it, how on earth can you claim they didn't cheat?

The reason for Zrnic's suspension was stopping the ball flow with his foot...

So, who's actually responsible for Gojun's ejection? How so?

And even if I were to buy your "expert" analysis—which is hard to do when you're viewing the game through such a warped lens—I'd still say: see you tomorrow...

When I mentioned we weren't getting robbed against the Americans, I was talking about the 2008 EP, since that's where the debate started... I thought we were still on that topic...

You're being totally confusing—no quotes, too many words, and zero punctuation...

Robert Cruz5 said:Oh, sure, let’s just give all the credit to Gobac and Lina for the fact that we’ve been sitting at the top of American handball for a decade. If it weren't for those two, we'd be stuck in the gutter right alongside the Russians. Even now, the Austrians are trying to sweep us under the rug—despite the fact that Maksimov came out of retirement to try and save us. That's how bad it is. And honestly, thanks for all the "expert" handball analysis you guys have been dumping on me—I've read every single bit of it. I'm truly moved. Truly.

Well, we can always credit that—and I’ll always give credit where it’s due to the players on the American national handball team...

Because if it wasn't for them, Gobac and Linek would have been long gone by now...

Adam Collins4 said:That foul on Balic—that should have been at least a two-minute penalty... and that’s it. I guess it’s just unclear why they didn't call it.

It’s also worth keeping an eye out for when a player gets tossed—if the foul is a straight ejection, that is—just so I don't have to constantly monitor the score... maybe.

Look, I’ve gotta highlight this—that answer just doesn't cut it. I wasn't even saying people need to watch out; I'm simply arguing that we need to stick to the same standard used last year. Remember the Finals? We and the Frenchmen were playing a brutal game. One guy pulls someone by the jersey—fine, shouldn't be more than a two-minute penalty. Then later, Karabatic takes Balic in the neck with an elbow—just a standard pass attempt, really—and there isn't even a two-minute penalty called. Even if the rulebook says it should be a two-minute penalty, it isn't. Per the rules.Look, the ref was clearly watching—he saw exactly what happened and when. But since it involved Karabatic, he didn't call it. That’s just math to me. If the roles were reversed and it was some other player, Van would have been flying across the court like a bullet because of that call. That's just how it works.

Statistical refereeing balance. It’s supposed to be impartial—no favoritism, no bias—but clearly, that isn't how things actually work.

Robert Cruz5 said:Look, I have to double down here. Your answer just doesn't cut it. I wasn't saying people need to "be careful"—that's obvious. My point is that the criteria need to be consistent. Look at last year. We were up against the Frenchmen in the Finals. It was a bloodbath. Someone grabs a guy by the jersey? Fine, he’s out for two minutes. But later on, when Karabatic drives an elbow into Balic's neck—just a standard cross-body hit—there isn't even a two-minute penalty. Even if we're talking strictly BY THE RULES, he should have been sent off. But the ref was clearly watching, deciding exactly when to blow the whistle and when to look away. Since it was Karabatic, he stays on the court. It’s pure calculation. If the roles were reversed, even a minor foul would have seen him sent
to the sidelines like a bullet.
Statistical officiating balance. They claim they aren't playing favorites, but clearly, that's a lie.

Here we go again...

You're cherry-picking the facts to suit your narrative... jumping from the situation with Balic and the Danes straight to Balic and the Frenchmen...

Come on, you have to realize that refs set their criteria on a game-by-game basis... you can't exactly compare the standards of two different matches...

Because of that, if there really was a failure in consistency, you should be looking at the calls made during the game against the Danes, not the one against the French...

Why on earth are we running two separate threads about the Frenchmen as if they’re actually worth our time? 🙏

Adam Collins4 said:He didn't get the 2-minute penalty... and even if he had, Pero wouldn't be around anymore...

What difference would a 2-minute suspension actually make when we don't even have the player on the court?

Hardly any...

And I have to bold this part. Unfortunately. I already gave you an answer to that. Since he didn't get penalized, Pero isn't here. Are you actually... I mean, are you even reading what you write? What’s the point of red and yellow cards then? According to your logic, they should just hand out sledgehammers and let them fight to the death. The fact that the others saw how Pero went down didn't affect them—not according to you, right? It doesn't matter that Lackovic saw how Pero was taken out. Do you think it’s easy for him to charge into zone 6 when he knows he could end up just like Pero? Where is the psychological aspect in all this? The moment we saw what happened to Pero, the European Championship was basically over for us. We were constantly worrying about him and barely focused on the game itself. Even during the bronze medal match against the Danes, we were looking at Pero and his bandaged eye more than the actual play. I mean, who cares about handball when you can stay in the game even without an eye? And this is a quote from Kink Kaleb, whom I see people love quoting here because the guy talks trash about the American team—even if he ended up eating dirt in his latest ESPN commentary.

As for what a 2-minute penalty changes? Nothing, except the score. I already laid out my arguments there. The next day in the Finals against the Germans, after a strong start by the German Canadian, the message was clear. It said: you can't play the way you did against the Americans or you'll face sanctions. But feel free to play against the Germans. You'll be protected. Do I really need to write more?

Against equal opponents, one ball can decide everything—not just one single call.

Adam Collins4 said:They can always take credit for that—and I’ll always give my thanks to the players on the American national handball team...

Because if it weren't for them, both Gobac and Linek would have been long gone...

It’s not just that you aren't right here—you are absolutely wrong.

The same group of players was previously led by Josip Cos Miljkovic, who finished 16th at the EP with them. He actually labeled those players as having zero potential. Before the tournament in Portugal, nobody even wanted to coach them. When they left the airport, only a handful of reporters saw them off, and even then, it was mostly just mocking smiles. If I recall correctly, Lino responded back then by saying we'd show everyone how Americans play handball in Portugal.
I assume you know exactly who Josip Miljkovic was. A man who, in his prime, was essentially what Balic is today.

Everyone keeps talking about how Smailagic won gold in Portugal. Isn't that just undermining Lino? If they had played poorly, he would have taken the blame, whereas no one would even mention Smailagic. Besides, Smailagic coached them during the World Cup where they finished dead last, and he actually accused the players of sabotaging him. He shouldn't have said that—even if it were true—because players are sensitive creatures. I suppose you should probably know that without me pointing it out.

01:00 ABC recording

Adam Collins4 said:Here we go again...

You’re just cherry-picking what suits you—shifting from Balić and the Danes to Balić and the Frenchmen...

Look, you have to understand that referees set their criteria on a game-by-game basis... comparing two different matches is apples and oranges...

Because of that, if there was a mistake in how they applied the criteria, you should be looking at other calls made against the Danes, not the French...

Another wrong answer. For a former official, that's pretty strange. Before every tournament, they hold seminars where refs get specific instructions on how to officiate. For instance, any hand contact under the chin or to the head results in a two-minute penalty—and lately, even a red card for tougher cases. That isn't some subjective "criterion" like you're suggesting. That's the RULE. Or the law. A referee decides whether to allow physical play or tighten things up, but they have to know the difference between hard play and dangerous play. And obviously, they need to ensure those same standards apply to both teams. If they don't, they might as well just put on one team's jersey; then they aren't an official, they're a fan. There was a time when Collina was named the best soccer ref in the world. Even he made mistakes, just like everyone else. But he applied the same logic to everyone regardless of who they were. And please, don't try telling me you can't compare a handball ref to a soccer ref. You absolutely can.

As for why I'm jumping between the Danes, Germans, and Frenchmen—I'm just trying to show this wasn't an isolated incident, though unfortunately, there were several. Just think back to the last EP and how our guys looked like they were in a boxing match rather than playing handball. Sulic was sidelined by Dinart in the semifinals, so he couldn't help us out against the Danes.

And Sulic wasn't just anyone. He wasn't some pushover.

Robert Cruz5 said:Wrong call again. For a former referee, that’s a pretty bizarre take. Before every major tournament, they hold seminars where officials get specific instructions on how to officiate. For instance, any hand contact under the goal area or to the head results in a two-minute suspension—and lately, even more severe cases can trigger an immediate red card. So, that doesn't fall under your "subjective criteria." That falls under the RULE. Or rather, the law. A ref gets to decide whether to let the game stay physical or tighten things up, but you have to actually know the difference between hard play and a foul. And, obviously, they have to apply those standards equally to both sides. If they don't, they might as well just put on one of the teams' jerseys; at that point, they aren't an official, they're just a fan. There was a time when Collina was hailed as the greatest soccer ref in history, and sure, he made mistakes just like everyone else. But the difference was he applied the same standard to everyone regardless of who was on the court. And please, don't try telling me you can't compare a handball official to a soccer official. You absolutely can.

As for why I keep jumping from the Danes to the Germans to the Frenchmen—as far as I'm concerned, I'm just trying to show that this wasn't some isolated incident, but unfortunately, it happens way too often. Just look back at the last EP; our guys looked like they were in a boxing match rather than playing handball. Sulic was sidelined by Dinart during the semifinals, so he couldn't step up against the Danes.

And Sulic wasn't some amateur. He wasn't some rookie.

And you're going to lecture *me* on what constitutes a wrong call? You don't even have a single day of officiating experience under your belt. Get it together...

You're comparing an EP to a World Cup...

Before every tournament, there's a seminar, and every single one is different from the last...

So, before you come at me claiming I've made a mistake, maybe go study the actual facts instead of just nitpicking what I wrote because you misunderstood my point and now you're twisting it to fit your own narrative...