UFC Open Concept vs. Traditional Closed Systems

I was scrolling through this other forum where they were debating how UFC came to be, basically weighing its pros and cons against those old-school traditional systems like Judo, Aikido, or Karate.

Take Judo, for example. Nothing truly new has happened there in fifty years. If anything changed, it was just shuffling the order of moves or certain techniques getting more hype during Olympic cycles. Honestly, the Olympics is the reason Judo turned out the way it did—most modern practitioners are just athletes, not even close to being actual martial artists. If they actually knew the skill, they’d be using strikes too and would be much more dangerous fighters.

BJJ basically exploited that gap by branding itself as this totally revolutionary thing through massive commercialization. In reality, they’re just selling the exact same Judo moves but giving them exotic names like "Lion Claw" or "Anaconda Constriction." The gear companies made a killing off this, launching big brands you see everywhere now. Competition fighters look like they’re dressed for a Formula 1 race. Regardless, BJJ isn't going to be an Olympic sport anytime soon, and frankly, it doesn't need to be.

Aikido was never meant to be a sport. They don't compete because their goal is different—though half the time, that "goal" is just a convenient excuse for why their techniques don't work when things get real. It's easier to claim peace is the point when you can't actually fight. But let’s not forget that M. Ueshiba created Aikido techniques specifically as an Odgvor to Judo attacks. Back then, Kano and Ueshiba used to swap students and actually spar!!! You can still find a few old-school masters who trained under M. U. and can tell you his sessions were intense!!! Can you even imagine that compared to the soft stuff people call Aikido today?

And believe it or not, the Jujutsu we train today is only a few years old. I'm talking about modern sporting Jujutsu, not the stuff police and military used to run with. Since it's gone mainstream as a sport, it’s facing the same death sentence as other combat arts that went pro. People will only practice what scores points in a tournament, so it’s headed straight for the same fate as Karate.

Karate is the perfect example of how you take a lethal skill and kill it by turning it into a sport. Then the Korean lobby swoops in and pushes Taekwondo(!!!) into the Olympics. 🙂

It was inevitable that something would emerge to fix the holes in those old systems. That response hit fast with the UFC and the whole MMA concept. MMA was marketed as a "learning system"—an evolution in training that didn't need the rigid, outdated constraints of the old schools. Once everything became available online, everyone started mixing styles together.

Now, you can train something that isn't even a real style—just a mashup of 40% kickboxing, 40% BJJ, and 20% whatever a master decides to throw in (maybe some Wing Tsun or Judo if that's their background). The percentages change depending on the "style."

On forums like this, I always get guys trying to convince me that BJJ has nothing to do with Judo, or that striking in the UFC isn't related to Karate. I don't think they're being malicious; it's just a defensive reaction. Everyone wants to protect what they love!

But for the sake of martial arts history, you have to know where things come from. Like how a Judo guy broke Helio Gracie's arm in their first match...

There's also this huge misconception that UFC fighters are just uneducated, wild, or problematic thugs. My experience has been the complete opposite. Toxic people don't last long in MMA any more than they do in any other sport. At the end of the day, MMA is a sport...

Love your own stuff, respect someone else's.

Later.

swiftsurfer80, your arguments are so incredibly naive they don't even merit a response... You're far too obsessed with Japanese martial arts to have a rational conversation with!

Well said, though I don't think it's entirely spot on 👍
I honestly feel like a ton of actual skill has just evaporated through history, leaving us with nothing but shadows of what these arts used to be in their prime. Modern life just doesn't provide the right environment to actually test anything, since most "real" fights nowadays are decided by firearms, which basically spells the death knell for traditional martial arts. Without that constant pressure testing, the techniques start to rot because they get tuned specifically for controlled sparring, and you rarely see today's masters facing a legitimate life-or-death struggle. That’s why we see systems like Krav Maga popping up to fit the modern era, but even then, you lose the soul of the original art and the raw essence of the fight.

That's where UFC comes in as the closest thing we have to what actual combat should look like, as much as that's even possible today. Sure, there are plenty of "holes" since it's happening in a cage against an opponent you're staring down who isn't going to sneak up behind you, and obviously, there are no weapons involved, but for most people, it feels way more authentic than those other styles that claim to teach everything but never actually put it to the test. Like I mentioned in another thread, UFC follows Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do philosophy pretty closely—just stripping away the useless fluff and keeping what actually works. Even if it's limited to the cage, that kind of openness is exactly why it stays effective. It isn't some finished, perfect system, and it probably never will be; it's constantly evolving, and if something like Aikido or Pa-qua actually proves its worth one day, you can bet it'll be integrated into the mix immediately.

I gotta say, swiftsurfer80's post is honestly one of the best things I've read on here. 😬 I mean, I guess he really hit the nail on the head.

Robin Palmer3 said:swiftsurfer80, your takes are honestly too naive to even bother responding to... you're just way too obsessed with Japanese martial arts to have a rational conversation with!

The reality is that over the last 500 years, martial arts have stayed much more intact in China and Japan than they did in America or the Middle East. It’s just that the style of warfare in America or the Middle East was constantly shifting, which meant tactics and skills were always being overhauled. I'm not trying to imply that China or Japan are somehow less developed or stuck in the past, it's just that history dealt them a different hand. In America, those old-school combat styles either died out or just morphed into sports because, say, during the Napoleonic Wars, nobody really needed medieval swordplay anymore and close-quarters fighting lost its edge. On the flip side, in places like Japan, hand-to-hand combat was still being practiced with the same frequency, so those skills just managed to stick around much longer.

Eric Jackson43 said:Well said, though I disagree slightly on some points.👍
I believe many skills have been lost to history. What we study today is merely a shadow of those arts in their prime. Modernity doesn't allow for true testing, since most real encounters today involve firearms, causing traditional martial arts to fade away. Without pressure testing, a skill degrades by adapting solely to sparring, and modern masters rarely face actual combat. This is why systems like Krav Maga emerge to fit the modern age, yet even then, the connection to the original art and its essence is lost.

UFC enters the picture as the sport closest to how real fighting should look, as much as possible today. While there are certainly "holes" because it takes place in a cage against a single opponent who won't sneak up behind you—not to mention the lack of weapons—it remains closer to reality for many. It is more effective than styles that cover more ground but never actually test their utility. As I mentioned in a separate thread, UFC closely follows Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do philosophy: discard what doesn't work and embrace what is effective. Although UFC operates within the confines of a cage, that openness is key to its success. It isn't a finished system, and likely never will be; things are always being added. If Aikido or Pa-qua were ever proven effective, they would be integrated immediately.

Bravo, Eric Jackson43. You beat me to it; that is exactly what I intended to write.👍 🙏

Robin Palmer3 said:swiftsurfer80, your takes are so naive they aren't even worth a response... You're way too obsessed with Japanese arts to have a real conversation!

It might not come off that way in my posts, but I’m not some Japanophile...

I just think people should call things what they actually are. Even if it's Egyptian. The way people talk now, you'd think the whole world starts and ends with UFC, but that’s just not true.

The showbiz industry used to be all about Bruce Lee, now it's all about Fedor Emelianenko, Mirko Cro Cop, and Kazushi Sakuraba.

Back in the day, you had to hit the theater to see a show; nowadays, you just hop on a website or catch ESPN on a Thursday at 11 PM.

You see these guys fighting until they're exhausted, sporting a gambling site logo tattooed right on their shaved chests... And then everyone wants to lecture me about "reality." Real life is sponsored by McBet.

Don't get me wrong.

Later.

So, based on what you wrote, swiftsurfer80, are you saying that because I train Muay Thai—which is a competitive sport—I’m practicing a low kick just to score points? Like I’m not thinking about how that same kick could actually break someone's leg or take them out of the fight entirely? Do you honestly believe that when I practice a technique I plan to use in a bout, my mind is on the scoreboard rather than on how to dismantle my opponent?
The whole point of drilling a strike, a takedown, a block, or a combo isn't about racking up points. It's about increasing the odds that when the fight happens, I can execute that move with maximum power, pinpoint precision, and perfect timing to deal as much damage as possible.

swiftsurfer80 said:You see these guys beating the hell out of each other with some gambling site's logo tattooed right on their shaved chests... and then they start lecturing you about reality. The sponsor of reality—McBet sportsbooks.

I’m pretty sure half those logos are just waterproof marker, not actual ink. 😉
At the end of the day, everything costs money, including the growth of UFC, and honestly, I don't really see the corporate side as a flaw since we're all just stuck living in this era anyway. The quality of the fights scales with how mainstream the sport becomes, and in a capitalist system, you can't get reach without deep pockets, which is the same story for almost every other sport out there—even the ones where people actually lose their lives, unlike in the UFC. It’s a sport, sure, but it's also a martial art, probably more of a genuine skill than most things people call "skills" these days.

swiftsurfer80 said:Maybe it doesn't come across that way in my posts, but I am absolutely not some Japanophile...

I just believe in calling things by their actual names. Even if it were written in Egyptian hieroglyphics! As it stands now, it feels like the entire world begins and ends with UFC, which—let’s be honest—is just plain false.

The showbiz industry used to worship Bruce Lee; nowadays, they're all about Fedor Emelianenko, Mirko Cro Cop, and Kazushi Sakuraba.

Back in the day, you actually had to go to a theater to catch a show. Now? You just hop on a website or tune into ESPN on a Thursday night at 11 PM.

And there you see these guys, fighting until they're completely spent, sporting the logo of some gambling site tattooed right on their hairless chests... And that's when the lecture on "reality" begins. The official sponsor of reality? McBet sportsbook.

Don't get me wrong.

Regards

It might be far from reality, but it's certainly closer than mere "skills."

nakmuay said:Based on what swiftsurfer80 wrote, does that mean since I train Muay Thai—which is a competitive sport—I'm practicing low kicks just to score points rather than to actually break someone's leg or take them out of the fight? Do you seriously think when I'm drilling a technique I plan to use, I'm thinking about point totals instead of how to wreck someone with it?
The whole point of drilling a strike, a takedown, a block, or a combo isn't about points. It's about making sure that when it happens in a fight, the technique lands harder, more precise, with better timing, and ultimately deals the most damage possible.

NOPE. That’s not how it works. Muay Thai was around way before the UFC era, right? It’s a traditional martial art/sport in its own right. If you add Gracie Jiu-Jitsu to the mix, then you're talking about MMA...

And why would you assume a Judo practitioner can't slam someone on their head and keep them down? Or that a karate fighter can't land a clean shot to end a fight?

You hit the nail on the head though—the goal is maximum damage. It's the same deal with boxing, kickboxing, or any combat system built on striking. You aren't counting points or thinking about them in the heat of it. The only difference is the rules stop you from, say, biting the other guy.

Eric Jackson43 said:I honestly think it’s just a waterproof marker rather than a tattoo. 😉
Look, everything needs funding, including the growth of UFC. I don't see that as a downside for the sport; we just live in a certain kind of world. The quality of UFC depends on how widespread it gets, and in a capitalist system, you need cash for that. It's the same deal in other sports—where people actually lose their lives sometimes, which isn't really the case in UFC. At the end of the day, UFC is a sport, but it's also incredibly close to being a pure skill set, probably closer than most skills nowadays.

Obviously it's a marker. 🙂 And besides, that sponsor is only for one fight, right?

I mentioned before that UFC fighters are insanely dedicated and do it out of passion, just like people train Aikido out of love. But you can only grind in UFC while you're physically peaked (maybe you teach later, whatever), whereas you can do Aikido your whole life. Aikido practitioners don't burn themselves out, so they can basically live forever like turtles. 🙂

You can look at this through short-term vs. long-term goals. 🙂

Even UFC, which is supposed to be an open system, is getting boxed into specific skill sets today. We're seeing "21st-century skills" emerging from 20th-century ones (which came from even older stuff): Shooto, Krav Maga, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu...

It’s mostly driven by money. That’s why Machado Jiu-Jitsu isn't the same thing as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and Shooto isn't the same as full contact plus wrestling. Try telling some BJJ guy that it all started from Judo (since Helio learned directly from Judo practitioners) and he'll probably take your head off...

I do both and it works for me.

"Seriously, go ahead and tell some guy in a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu class that this all started from Judo—since Helio learned directly from Judo practitioners—and I bet he'll take your head off right then and there..."

I mean, I've seen people bring that up plenty of times, and honestly, there’s never really been much of a debate about it.

- briskjackal5 -

I’m asking this again—seriously, why does so many people seem to have such a massive beef with BJJ? Like, what is it? Does it actually bother you guys that much? I honestly don't get why there's so much antipathy toward it. Is it because of Helio and how things played out back in the day? So what? Look, UFC is just the natural evolution of combining different fighting styles—it’s basically a filter for what actually works in a real fight. BJJ is here to stay, whether you want to call it part of Judo or whatever else, it doesn't matter. BJJ works, and if people can't handle that, well, that sounds like a "them" problem. Grappling is absolutely essential, period.

Afrofeet said:maybe it's unrealistic, but it's way closer than "skills."

It's not far off, you just gotta define what reality looks like for different people. For those guys doing Shotokan Karate, reality is hitting competitions every single weekend and stacking up medals.
For some, reality is fighting in Pride FC.
For others, it's just hanging with the crew and grabbing a beer after.
Around here, Jujutsu basically ditched the Judo ground game to adopt the BJJ style because it actually works better. That's just how it is—skills evolve over time as you learn from your mistakes.

Later

Eric Jackson43 said:Honestly, I’m thinking we’re looking at a waterproof marker here rather than an actual tattoo. 😉
Look, let’s be real—everything costs money, including the growth of the UFC. Personally, I don't see that as a bad thing for the sport; it's just how the world works these days. The quality of UFC evolves based on how big it gets, and in a capitalist society like ours, you need capital to scale up. It’s the same deal with pretty much any other sport—though, to be fair, people actually lose their lives in plenty of those, which isn't really the case in the UFC. At the end of the day, the UFC is definitely a sport, but it’s also incredibly close to being a pure skill set—probably closer to a true martial art than most things people call "skills" nowadays.

Smart point. 👍

swiftsurfer80 swiftsurfer80 said:The whole idea that MMA is this wide-open, evolving ecosystem is kind of a joke because everything eventually just settles into these rigid little silos, creating these "21st-century" disciplines that are really just repackaged versions of 20th-century stuff like Shooto, Krav Maga, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

Real UFC practitioners don't care about labels; they'll grab whatever works if it gets the job done. If some Tai Chi move suddenly proves itself effective tomorrow, no serious fighter is going to feel embarrassed about adding it to their arsenal just because it's labeled as Tai Chi.

swiftsurfer80 swiftsurfer80 said:Most of this is just driven by the bottom line, so let's be real—calling Machado Jiu-Jitsu the same thing as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is a stretch, much like saying Shooto is just full contact plus wrestling. Honestly, if you walk up to some BJJ guy and try to claim the whole thing just evolved from Judo—since Helio learned specifically from Judo practitioners—he’ll probably take your head off.

Honestly, if you're a real practitioner, it doesn't matter whether you're grinding in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Machado, or some old-school Aikido style—all that matters is whether the techniques actually work when things get real. It’s the same story with traditional martial arts, too. Unfortunately, you find posers and show-offs everywhere, and they aren't just limited to the UFC scene. If anything, the cage might actually hold those types back since they can't just fake their way through a fight to sell a dream; in the UFC, everyone eventually gets a chance to prove what they're actually made of.

swiftsurfer80 swiftsurfer80 said:Look, you can still grind out some UFC training even when you're feeling completely burnt out.

You can always get back into it later if you want, though obviously, you aren't going to be out there trading blows with some twenty-year-old UFC phenom, but you can still build yourself into someone who actually knows how to handle themselves in a scrap.

stormycobra812 said:I’m asking again, why does so many people hate on BJJ? Is there something about it that actually bothers you guys? I honestly don't get what's so annoying about it. Is it just because of Helio and how he played his hand? So what?

Well, if I recall correctly, Helio and his crew pulled a lot of shady moves back in the day, so they aren't exactly beloved by a lot of the UFC crowd, even if everyone still treats them like legends.

swiftsurfer80 said:The question of how MMA came to be—and its pros and cons compared to traditional, closed systems like Judo, Aikido, or Karate—actually popped up on a forum where it wasn't even the main topic.

Take Judo, for instance. There hasn't been anything truly groundbreaking there in fifty years. If there was, it was just shuffling the order of combinations or playing with which techniques were popular during different eras of Olympic Judo. Honestly, the Olympics are the reason Judo is what it is today; most modern Judokas are strictly athletes, and they barely have a clue about actual Judo skill. If they did, they’d be using strikes too and would be much more well-rounded fighters.

BJJ exploited that gap by branding itself through massive commercialization as something entirely "new." In reality, they’re just marketing the exact same Judo techniques under exotic names like "lion's claw" or "anaconda choke"... It turned out to be a goldmine for sports equipment manufacturers, who launched new brands that are everywhere now. Competition fighters look as flashy as Formula 1 drivers. Regardless, BJJ isn't headed for the Olympics anytime soon—nor does it need to be.

Aikido was never meant to be a sport. They don't compete because their goal is different. Often, that "different goal" is just a convenient excuse to mask how ineffective the techniques are when a real fight breaks out. Aikido thrives on being peaceful; avoiding a fight can almost be seen as a success. But let's not forget that M. Ueshiba created Aikido techniques that were a direct Odgvor to Judo attacks back in the day. Kano and Ueshiba used to swap students and even spar with each other!!! You can take the word for it from the rare living masters who trained under M. U. Training sessions under Ueshiba were intense!!! Can you even imagine that compared to modern Aikido?

Believe it or not, Jujutsu is a relatively young art!!! I’m talking about the Jujutsu practiced today, not the stuff used by police and military in the past. Since it’s become a sport, it faces the same threat of being hollowed out, just like other martial arts that went commercial. People will only practice the moves that score points in competition, which means it's heading toward the same fate as Karate.

Karate is a perfect example of how you can kill a martial art by turning it into a sport. And then, predictably, the Korean lobby swoops in and pushes taekwondo (!!!) into the Olympics.🙂

It was inevitable that something would emerge to address the flaws in those older systems. That response arrived lightning-fast in the form of UFC, followed by MMA and similar concepts. MMA is presented as a "learning system"—an evolution in training methods. It doesn't need the constraints of closed, "old school" systems. Then came the era of mixing, since all information is easily accessible to everyone via the internet.

So now, you can train something that isn't really a concrete discipline, but rather a mix of 40% kickboxing, 40% BJJ, and 20% whatever the master feels like creating (usually someone with a background in something like Wing Tsun or Judo). Those percentages shift depending on the "style."

On this and other forums, I’ve had various practitioners try to convince me that BJJ has nothing to do with Judo, or that striking in the UFC has no connection to Karate. I don't think there's any malice in it; it's just a defensive reaction. I'm just protecting what I love!

But, for the sake of martial arts culture, you really have to know where everything comes from. For instance, a Judoka broke Helio Gracie's arm in their very first match...

There’s also this misconception regarding the clash between these two worlds—that MMA fighters are uneducated, wild, or problematic... My experience with them has been the complete opposite. Problematic people don't have a place in MMA any more than they do in any other sport. And at the end of the day, MMA is still a sport...

Love your own, respect others.

Best regards,

really solid post 👍

Eric Jackson43 said:Well said, though I don't think it's entirely accurate... 👍
I honestly believe a lot of techniques have been lost to history, and what we learn today is just a shadow of what those arts were in their prime. Modern life doesn't really allow for true testing—since most "real" confrontations nowadays involve firearms—so traditional arts are essentially dying out. Without actual testing, the skills degrade because they get tuned specifically for sparring, and today's masters rarely get to experience a real fight. That’s why systems like Krav Maga emerge to suit the modern era, but in that process, you lose the connection to the original art and the soul of the fight itself..

Traditional skills don't degrade just because of sparring... I have no idea where you got that idea from... 😕 The way Krav Maga adapts to the modern world is strictly about how it's taught...

Eric Jackson43 said:UFC comes into play here as the closest thing possible to what real fighting should look like. And while there are definitely "holes" since it takes place in a ring—you're focused on one opponent who won't suddenly jump out from behind you, plus there are no weapons involved—for many, it's much closer to a real fight. It's more effective than styles that might cover more ground but never actually get the chance to be tested in reality. Actually, like I mentioned in another thread, UFC follows Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do philosophy quite closely: stripping away what doesn't work and incorporating what does. Even if UFC only does this within the context of a ring, that openness is a key part of its effectiveness. UFC isn't a finished system—it probably never will be—new things are always being added, and if something like Aikido or Kung Fu ever proved itself, they'd integrate it immediately.

UFC isn't the closest thing to how a real fight looks (like street survival)... UFC is just the closest thing to a complete competitive sport/contest governed by specific rules with a third party (the referee) overseeing the ring... No, UFC doesn't follow Bruce Lee's system or approach to fighting... By the way, if that were true, Jeet Kune Do masters would be dominating UFC cages everywhere. 😉 It's highly unlikely that anything from Aikido or similar styles could ever be integrated into the cage... if they did, it wouldn't be a sport anymore. 🙂