History - Zoran Oštrić - Sanctioning the publication of the Democratic Party

coastalstag7 said:View on reddit

Check out this thread one of the guys started. He actually laid out a seriously solid argument about the Middle Ages, but man, nobody’s jumping in to talk about it! Only two buddies showed up just to drop a thumbs up and call it a day. Basically, there's zero debate happening here—and honestly, that's the real tragedy.

You totally forgot you jumped into that thread too, just trying to pick a fight with the OP. You didn't even touch his specific points about Mihail Krešimir; you just threw out vague stuff based on some Wikipedia entries. I actually pulled those comments into a separate thread.

The topic is super niche. You can't just spray-and-pray generalities everywhere like half the people on these subreddits love to do.

Still, besides the OP, you, and me, six other people chimed in. And obviously, nobody got banned. By moving your baseless nitpicking to another thread, I just cleared the air so we could actually have a discussion without the noise.

coastalstag7 said:Skanie isn't a Latin word!!!!

Honestly, it's not even about the topic anymore. I've cooled off a bit, and there aren't even any posts on the Canada subreddit. The real issue is you and that whole bureaucratic, government-job mentality this country has.
If Mexicans had found that inscription on their forums, there would be a million posts about it already.

See? That's how the game works. I've basically cashed in on this sweet moderator gig, and Arthur Smith15 is playing the same game because he wants the same thing. 😂

lonetrucker4 said:You totally forgot you jumped into that thread too, just trying to pick a fight with the OP. You didn't even touch his specific points about Mihail Krešimir; you just threw out vague stuff based on some Wikipedia entries. I actually pulled those comments into a separate thread.

The topic is super niche. You can't just spray-and-pray generalities everywhere like half the people on these subreddits love to do.

Still, besides the OP, you, and me, six other people chimed in. And obviously, nobody got banned. By moving your baseless nitpicking to another thread, I just cleared the air so we could actually have a discussion without the noise.

My only decent post was the one where I explained why you need two different versions of Pribina to actually prove the point! But now that my post got moved to another thread, this whole topic is basically dead. All those thumbs up and useless "cool story bro" comments don't even matter anymore.

Larry Walker24 said:Because the moderation over on the History sub is such a complete disaster, I actually requested a partial ban from there. I’m just not interested in reading the version of "History" that Oštrić tries to push on us.

Personally, I don't even bother going near any threads where his name pops up.
I’m running away from that cross like the devil himself.

I have zero interest in bringing drama onto the forum.

coastalstag7 said:Hey, I can write just fine! It’s just that the official American grammar rules are a total mess, so by your logic, 90% of the population would be considered illiterate.

You're just some nobody,

The "nobody" here is the guy who had his whole education paid for by the taxpayers, but instead of putting in the work to translate a stone inscription, he'd rather throw a tantrum at someone else because of his weird phobia of Germans.

You aren't literate; that much is obvious from every single one of your posts. 😁 Aside from the content of your posts—which is mostly just nonsensical nonsense and fabrications—your writing is a total festival of ignorance regarding basic grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, and capitalization. It’s clear you haven't spent much time looking at a textbook or even finishing school. But hey, here we go again: a drive to revise History, inventing your own personal linguistics, and all that other nonsense...

(...) A "guy" whom the state invested in through education, yet who refused to put in the actual effort to translate a stone inscription and instead chooses to foam at the mouth at someone else due to his own Germanophobia, is "insignificant."

(1) The logic behind this rambling isn't even clear; the state "invested" in my education just as much as yours, except you simply failed to utilize it, for whatever reason. (2) Furthermore, if (presumably?) you view yourself as a Germanophile or someone else labels you as such, that doesn't automatically mean everyone else is a Germanophobe. 🤦

coastalstag7 said:My only decent post was the one where I explained why you need two different versions of Pribina to actually prove the point! But now that my post got moved to another thread, this whole topic is basically dead. All those thumbs up and useless "cool story bro" comments don't even matter anymore.

"Your high-quality post"... 😁

Arthur Smith15 said:You aren't literate; that much is obvious from every single one of your posts. 😁 Aside from the content of your posts—which is mostly just nonsensical nonsense and fabrications—your writing is a total festival of ignorance regarding basic grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, and capitalization. It’s clear you haven't spent much time looking at a textbook or even finishing school. But hey, here we go again: a drive to revise History, inventing your own personal linguistics, and all that other nonsense...

(...) A "guy" whom the state invested in through education, yet who refused to put in the actual effort to translate a stone inscription and instead chooses to foam at the mouth at someone else due to his own Germanophobia, is "insignificant."

(1) The logic behind this rambling isn't even clear; the state "invested" in my education just as much as yours, except you simply failed to utilize it, for whatever reason. (2) Furthermore, if (presumably?) you view yourself as a Germanophile or someone else labels you as such, that doesn't automatically mean everyone else is a Germanophobe. 🤦

"Your high-quality post"... 😁

Your posts are like 90% ad hominem attacks. Your knowledge is stuck at a high school level—you know a tiny bit of everything but still refuse to actually form an opinion.
Let's talk grammar for a sec. It's honestly terrible and needs a complete overhaul because Americans speak in all sorts of different dialects and accents, so why is there one "standard" rulebook?
And what's the deal with those extra specific letters we have? If Western Slavs only need one version, why do we need two? We should probably just consolidate since everyone from different regions pronounces things differently anyway.
Look, I might not be a grammar expert, but in your honest opinion, how many people in this whole country actually follow the rules perfectly?
https://www.telegram.com/politics-news-updates/

Arthur Smith15 said:You aren't literate; that much is obvious from every single one of your posts. 😁 Aside from the content of your posts—which is mostly just nonsensical nonsense and fabrications—your writing is a total festival of ignorance regarding basic grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, and capitalization. It’s clear you haven't spent much time looking at a textbook or even finishing school. But hey, here we go again: a drive to revise History, inventing your own personal linguistics, and all that other nonsense...

(...) A "guy" whom the state invested in through education, yet who refused to put in the actual effort to translate a stone inscription and instead chooses to foam at the mouth at someone else due to his own Germanophobia, is "insignificant."

(1) The logic behind this rambling isn't even clear; the state "invested" in my education just as much as yours, except you simply failed to utilize it, for whatever reason. (2) Furthermore, if (presumably?) you view yourself as a Germanophile or someone else labels you as such, that doesn't automatically mean everyone else is a Germanophobe. 🤦

"Your high-quality post"... 😁

Of course you aren't a Germanophobe unless your political views force you to be! You act like this huge Slavophile, but then the second you write about Russians, you go straight for the worst insults.
Look, I already told Mr. Oštrić that I'm not some big Germanophile. I just think it’s smarter to lean into a Germanic version of our heritage since so many of our people work over in Germany—it just helps them get accepted better as a minority there. If they were all working in the Czech Republic, maybe we'd push the Slavic angle instead!

coastalstag7 said:Your posts are like 90% ad hominem attacks. Your knowledge is stuck at a high school level—you know a tiny bit of everything but still refuse to actually form an opinion.
Let's talk grammar for a sec. It's honestly terrible and needs a complete overhaul because Americans speak in all sorts of different dialects and accents, so why is there one "standard" rulebook?
And what's the deal with those extra specific letters we have? If Western Slavs only need one version, why do we need two? We should probably just consolidate since everyone from different regions pronounces things differently anyway.
Look, I might not be a grammar expert, but in your honest opinion, how many people in this whole country actually follow the rules perfectly?
https://www.telegram.com/politics-news-updates/

With Eastern Slavs, that Proto-Slavic "t'" shifted into a "ch" sound; meanwhile, Western Slavs have all sorts of different "t'" variations...
The idea that Russians went out of their way to soften those "t" sounds is a completely different conversation. 🙂

In most regional American dialects, those distinct "ch" sounds don't even exist separately.
In most urban dialects, they’ve merged into a sort of middle ground (Indianapolis is a rare exception).
Almost all rural Midwestern dialects rely on a simple vowel shift.
In many Southern dialects, you see the old "t'" influence, though people tend to swap it for a vowel shift when they try to speak "Standard American."
In most older dialect pockets, that distinction has vanished too, preserved only by a few isolated communities.

But again, just because something isn't pronounced a certain way doesn't mean it should be abolished from the language—just look at English or French.
Some changes might look nice on paper, but they aren't strictly necessary.

The American pronunciation follows a specific vowel pattern, and in writing, it denotes a long vowel sound.
That is what ought to change.
You find these vowel patterns in various regional dialects—some in the Midwest, some in the South, and some in isolated pockets of the Appalachians.
Then there is the modern standard.
It would simply be more convenient if the vowel length were always consistent.

Not to change the subject, but the foundation of any decent discussion is showing respect to the person you're talking to.

coastalstag7 said:Of course you aren't a Germanophobe unless your political views force you to be! You act like this huge Slavophile, but then the second you write about Russians, you go straight for the worst insults.
Look, I already told Mr. Oštrić that I'm not some big Germanophile. I just think it’s smarter to lean into a Germanic version of our heritage since so many of our people work over in Germany—it just helps them get accepted better as a minority there. If they were all working in the Czech Republic, maybe we'd push the Slavic angle instead!

And what about the truth behind those stories? 🤔

Rachel Richardson said:With Eastern Slavs, that Proto-Slavic "t'" shifted into a "ch" sound; meanwhile, Western Slavs have all sorts of different "t'" variations...
The idea that Russians went out of their way to soften those "t" sounds is a completely different conversation. 🙂

In most regional American dialects, those distinct "ch" sounds don't even exist separately.
In most urban dialects, they’ve merged into a sort of middle ground (Indianapolis is a rare exception).
Almost all rural Midwestern dialects rely on a simple vowel shift.
In many Southern dialects, you see the old "t'" influence, though people tend to swap it for a vowel shift when they try to speak "Standard American."
In most older dialect pockets, that distinction has vanished too, preserved only by a few isolated communities.

But again, just because something isn't pronounced a certain way doesn't mean it should be abolished from the language—just look at English or French.
Some changes might look nice on paper, but they aren't strictly necessary.

The American pronunciation follows a specific vowel pattern, and in writing, it denotes a long vowel sound.
That is what ought to change.
You find these vowel patterns in various regional dialects—some in the Midwest, some in the South, and some in isolated pockets of the Appalachians.
Then there is the modern standard.
It would simply be more convenient if the vowel length were always consistent.

Not to change the subject, but the foundation of any decent discussion is showing respect to the person you're talking to.

I was just saying that like 90% of what he says is just ad hominem attacks, and I wasn't just talking about myself.
Just watch how whenever someone hits him with a solid logical question and he doesn't have an answer, he just tries to mask his ignorance by throwing insults.

Rachel Richardson said:And what about the truth behind those stories? 🤔

Look, I’m not lying and I definitely don't enjoy doing it. Genetics doesn't lie either! You don't even need to read books by a German—honestly, they wouldn't have the time for our History anyway. Just show them a map of Europe's genetic landscape and let them see who else shares a haplogroup alongside the Germans.

coastalstag7 said:I was just saying that like 90% of what he says is just ad hominem attacks, and I wasn't just talking about myself.
Just watch how whenever someone hits him with a solid logical question and he doesn't have an answer, he just tries to mask his ignorance by throwing insults.

I know exactly how this situation stands.

coastalstag7 said:Look, I’m not lying and I definitely don't enjoy doing it. Genetics doesn't lie either! You don't even need to read books by a German—honestly, they wouldn't have the time for our History anyway. Just show them a map of Europe's genetic landscape and let them see who else shares a haplogroup alongside the Germans.

The I2 haplogroup is Slavic, whereas I1 is pre-Germanic.
Why would you ever market yourself as something you aren't?

And what exactly makes this off-topic?

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

Look, you're just trying to dodge the actual point here. You're acting all aggressive—like, intentionally over-the-top aggressive—just to avoid facing the seriousness of what we're talking about.
Look, if it isn't written exactly how the Yugoslav Encyclopedia says it is, you basically can't handle it—anything else is just straight-up enemy propaganda.

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

By posting this, you’re basically confirming that you want absolute authority over your own little corner of the sub—your own personal subreddit, if you will.
But man, that just isn't fair... This forum belongs to everyone who actually shows up and participates.
Your style is just straight-up overbearing. Honestly, you’re constantly driving people away—you've been shrinking the user base for a while now, and look at this sub today. It’s practically a ghost town. And let's be real, the folks who actually bailed aren't coming back as long as you're still running the show as moderator.
Look, I’ll say it again—you’re a killer forum user, really, but as a moderator, you’ve basically turned the History subforum into your own personal living room. It’s like you’ve become so obsessed with "balance" that you think you have the right to play schoolteacher to everyone else—and honestly, I can prove it just by looking at the sheer number of sanctions you’ve slapped on me and the rest of the guys.

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

Look, please don't try to put words in my mouth... If someone wants to call him Lola, then let them call him Lola. Simple as that.
Look, I already told you—the guy's name is Ivan Ribar. Just like his old man.
His nickname is Lola.
Anyway, even Tito’s last name was Broz, so I usually just call him Broz instead of Tito.
And that’s all you need to justify a sanction, according to you? Seriously?
Look, I'm not trying to act like some kind of genius here. I’m just stating the official name—I'm not out here blindly following some textbook version of history.
Look, this is just how I roll—I’m totally fine with people making fun of me or just straight-up ignoring me because of it—but seriously, I’m asking again: what is even the point of these sanctions?!
Here’s yet another piece of evidence that people just can't handle actual freedom of speech—especially when you're providing context that doesn't violate a single rule for anyone who actually knows their History.

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

Well, you said your piece... and honestly, good for you, because everything is laid out plain as day right here. I don't even need to give you a massive breakdown anymore; it's obvious you just don't like it. You're pushing back because I personally mentioned the Vlachs in relation to the topic—something you claim I shouldn't be saying...
Look, anyone who actually knows the History of this region doesn't need a lecture, so if you're so desperate for "proof," go check out J. Šižgorič (Sisgoreo) from the 16th century—he was already sounding the alarm about the Turks and the Vlachs back then..
Besides, since you got the whole thread deleted, you didn't even give the discussion a chance to breathe, so I was trying to explain myself.
But hey, that's your move, isn't it? If you don't like it, just delete it.
The whole point of a forum is to offer your own interpretation, and then let other members debate you or prove you wrong if they disagree... or just laugh at you if they want to..
For example, you wrote:

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

The MVAC existed in Canada, Canada, and it was active in Lika and Dalmatia too...
But the specific MVAC I was talking about regarding the surveyed area of Dalmatia was loyal to the occupier. Specifically, the Governorate administration.
That’s exactly what I wrote. Loyalists.
Someone who is loyal. And don't bother looking through a former Yugoslav Encyclopedia, because I highly doubt they use the word "loyalists"—they'd call them local traitors instead..

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

That's my freedom of speech right there. But hey, thanks for asking, let me break it down for you.
Basically, there was just a tiny handful of those die-hard Ustaše who couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that Pavelić had sold them out. So, they decided to act like these small-time, powerless Ustaše, but they remained stubborn—so, "hardline" in a figurative sense..
Obviously, it has nothing to do with physical weight, but I think most people here caught the drift, even if you didn't..

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

Look, you're getting all caught up trying to analyze whether they fit a specific definition or not, but we could have just had a legitimate discussion about it here.
The SKOJ/KPJ were illegal organizations if you're looking at the actual timeline of things.
The National Liberation Movement and the Partisans were recognized by their own standards. So, your opinion, which seems pretty much pulled straight from official USSR-era history, is totally irrelevant here.

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

The Yugoslav Royal Army was indeed the official armed force of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Even though they surrendered, elements remained abroad—in Egypt, for example.
That is the official name.
Just because Mihailović used the term "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland" or because of how official USSR-style history writes it, doesn't change the legal fact of the name JKV or the logic behind the Royal Yugoslav Army.
Is OZN any different from OZNA?!

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

It’s a shame you’re deleting everything... We could have actually talked about this in the thread.
Basically, if you consider that maybe 80% of the actual anti-fascist resistance consisted of non-communists or even anti-communists, then you can honestly say there were free anti-fascists—people who didn't join or weren't members of the Communist Party.
Official USSR-style history won't mention that because it's not convenient to admit that the communists were actually a minority, even if the resistance movement might not have succeeded without them..

lonetrucker4 said:Oh yeah, every single comma...

Look, I've got my flaws and yeah, I'm pretty high-strung (who isn't?), but I actually try to teach people stuff here.

Clearly, I haven't had any luck teaching you what a basic quote is over the last two years. 🤦

You misattribute authors—like turning Ivo Lola Ribar into "Ivan Ribar" (who was his father)—and then you get defensive when I check a book to verify what you're summarizing. You'd rather insist you're right than admit everyone else who calls him "Lola" is correct.

Then there was that thread about Surveying Dalmatia 1941-43 - Northern Dalmatia 1943-44. I deleted it and gave you a warning, and you just came back with this messy, pointless post. You complain that there aren't enough books on the subject or that it's "poorly covered," yet you haven't even bothered to look at the mountain of literature that actually exists. And casually, you call Mexicans "Vlachs." You twist facts and stir up chaos despite my endless warnings and the rules of this Reddit community.

For instance, you wrote:

In that area, various armies and paramilitary groups were operating.
The Italian army, then the governorate loyalists within the MVAC, followed by small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers, then the communists from the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia, then members of the Royal Yugoslav Army and Chetnik volunteers, and finally local anti-fascist patriots.

I have no idea which of these you're labeling as "armies" versus "paramilitaries." For starters, the MVAC (Milizia Volontaria Anti-Communist) weren't just some "governorate loyalists," especially since they mostly operated outside the territory annexed by Italy. And what exactly are these "small groups of hardline Nazi Germany sympathizers"? What's the difference between "hardline" and "lightweight" in your eyes? Also, the "communists of the Young Communist League/Communist Party of Yugoslavia" weren't a separate army or paramilitary group—they were part of the National Liberation Movement. Then again, there were no "members of the Royal Yugoslav Army" left because the Royal Yugoslav Army surrendered on April 17, 1941, and ceased to exist as a unit. Finally, there weren't any special military or paramilitary units made up of "local anti-fascist patriots."

You constantly churn out these nonsensical sentences. You're intentionally creating chaos. That kind of thing won't fly on this sub.

The "chaos" is only happening in your eyes... mostly yours.
I am more than willing to step into the ring with my peers and debate.
But you won't allow any freedom of speech, so anything that contradicts what you personally deem "correct" gets labeled as chaos...

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

The old Yugoslav Encyclopedia—honestly, man, if you want to dive down a rabbit hole of pure, unadulterated propaganda, that's where you start. It’s basically the holy grail of how the state wanted everyone to remember things. If you aren't careful, you'll end up believing half the stuff in there is gospel just because it was printed with that official government seal. It’s wild how much effort went into shaping the narrative back then.
SFRJ Historiography Quote

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

Actually, it's exactly the opposite.
There’s just no point in even trying to have a real discussion with you. It’s always the same old routine—you just delete, ban, censor, and slap on some sanctions. No debate, no actual dialogue, just straight-up shutting people down. Typical.
Look, there’s really no point in me even getting into a debate with you unless we both agree at the end of the day that I'm actually right. Otherwise, what are we even doing here? It's just a massive waste of my time.
Everything opposite to that simply doesn't exist. That's the whole damn point—you've basically turned this sub-forum into your own private little kingdom.

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

So, the title was way too broad?! Seriously? I mean, come on—if we’re going to have a real discussion here, we can't just throw out a massive, vague umbrella term and expect everyone to be on the same page. It’s like trying to aim at a target the size of a football field; you're basically just guessing at this point. If the scope is that wide, we're just going to end up spinning our wheels and talking in circles. We need some actual focus if we want to get anywhere meaningful.
Look, that wasn't even the point—the real issue here is just your total refusal to actually use the title "Yugoslav Royal Government." You’ve clearly got this massive chip on your shoulder about it, because you were just as against using the word "Royal" back then. But honestly? It’s just a straight-up fact. The country was officially known as the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It existed under that name, and it was internationally recognized as such. So, what exactly am I supposed to do about that? Is it my fault the history books say what they say?!!

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

Look, I already gave you the source. I dropped the link right there—straight up, no games.

Look, if I’ve already cited my sources, why on earth should anyone make a big deal out of me using the term Royal Yugoslav Army instead of some other acronym, or calling them the OZN instead of OZNA, or even just saying anti-fascists instead of Partisans?! It shouldn't be an issue.
Why are you dodging the fact that there was straight-up censorship in Yugoslavia? You can't just write History however you want; it had to be written in one specific, sanctioned "tone" if you wanted to stay in the good graces of the authorities. That's exactly what I’m calling you out on here.

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

What do I even care...
I literally just copied a quote from V. Velebit—straight out of his biography, word for word. But no, you just wiped it out, called me a liar, and slapped me with a three-day ban. Seriously?
Look, it’s not even about the quotes themselves—it's about how you're taking everything so incredibly literally. Seriously.
Look, you’ve got this whole rigid little timeline of history that you refuse to let anyone touch—you know, the one where Broz, aka Tito, and the whole Anti-fascist Movement, the Partisans, are basically untouchable icons. In your world, if it’s written that way, it’s gospel, period. And honestly? That’s exactly where you’re tripping up. That’s your fundamental problem right there.

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

Yeah, I am.
So, here’s the thing—the whole distinction between the National Liberation Movement and the Anti-fascist Movement? It basically boils down to this: the Communists cooked up that first label themselves. They needed a way to frame everything, because before they stepped in to organize things, there wasn't really any unified movement of unorganized non-communists running around. It was all just a mess until they decided to brand it.
Also, regarding the IRS... Look, I already explained this back when that thread was actually still active—I basically coined the term HNAP because I wanted a name for that obscure group of guerrillas who were mostly American anti-fascists with a strong sense of national pride, which is how HNAP came to be. You just assumed it referred to the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment because that’s what the official history books claim.
Look, my intention here was to be strictly real-time about this... back then, those guys up in the mountains weren't some organized battalion, and they certainly weren't calling themselves Partisans yet. But hey, if you want to go toe-to-toe with me on this, fine—I know exactly what kind of backlash I'm inviting by saying it.
That was such a perfect example of how people just refuse to actually think for themselves—it’s like you're so terrified of "historical revisionism" (which, honestly, I don't even care about because I personally respect the achievements of the National Liberation Movement) that you end up shutting down any attempt to look at history through a different lens or actually investigate the facts.
And you're calling that science? Seriously?
Look, this Reddit is about way more than just pure science. It’s supposed to be a place where you can actually speak your mind—even if what you're saying flies in the face of everything the "experts" claim to know. I mean, sure, let's keep things on equal footing with the actual scientific stuff, but we need to leave some breathing room for people to actually say what they think without getting shut down immediately. Give us some freedom to talk, for crying out loud.
Look, here’s how it works—if someone starts peddling lies, the rest of us are gonna step up and absolutely shred them in the debate. No mercy. But if what they're saying actually makes sense? If it’s actually lucid? Then fine, let them laugh at it if they want. That's just how the game goes.
Look, I just don't get it—the whole point of having a moderator isn't to come in and tear the core of this community apart, right? It’s supposed to be about fueling the fire and keeping things moving, not shutting everything down.
Look, the whole point of this Reddit isn't for everyone to be singing from the same hymn sheet. It’s definitely not about us all having the exact same opinions. That would be incredibly boring, wouldn't it?

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

Back when that same intelligence officer was writing, a battalion by that name didn't even exist... That's what I'm trying to get across. It was an unidentified resistance movement at the time.
But the Communist Party quickly assessed things later on, deciding that once the unit formed from its nucleus, it should be given a specific name.
This isn't my invention. This is just my own reasoning, logic, stepping back into that era, and searching for what's actually authentic.
To you, everyone worthy of credit was a communist. To me, they weren't.

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

I already explained the AFP thing in my previous post... And as for the name "Partisans"—which was adopted from the USSR as a communist invention—that's how I interpreted it too.
Both of my grandfathers fought in the National Liberation Movement. Neither of them was a communist. They were just free-spirited people, anti-fascists... So, in their memory, and in honor of most participants in the movement, I call them free anti-fascists.

lonetrucker4 said:It’s honestly messed up. Especially since I don't even know what they call "official history" anymore. ☕

And you can't even have a damn opinion, an impression, or a single shred of analysis? On a Reddit thread meant specifically for different perspectives? Give me a break.

Seriously? You think if we actually agree on something after a debate, it somehow ruins the whole point of this Reddit? 🤔

Fake news, fabrication, and straight-up fraud happen everywhere you look, but the crap people are throwing my way specifically targets... That controversial topic again.

The topic isn't even controversial. I only changed the title because yours was way too broad. In the moderator note on the first post, I already said the subject is totally fine, but the way you're handling it is just wrong.

Unbelievable. You still haven't figured out what an "actual quote" even means. Seriously? 😵

You totally made up those abbreviations like AFP and the IRS, man. You wrote them so convincingly I actually thought they were legit terms from some document you were citing. It wasn't until I did my own digging and started asking around that you finally admitted, "Yeah, I just made that up."Post #41That kind of "inventing" stuff in History isn't allowed. Not happening.

...after which Mr. Oštrić basically tossed my name right into the blacklist.

I don't even know your real name. Just some handle. Your nick is totally fine; it's just your writing style that's a total mess.

I’m backing some obscure unit that was basically just scrambling to pull itself together back in the summer of '41. I called it the IRS, because that's exactly what it was... just a bunch of local forces fueled by national pride and the Anti-fascist Movement.

There it is. The catch is that point 21 isn't even about some "unknown unit" (which was just some intel guy in Washington, D.C. chasing rumors), but the 3rd Battalion of the Primorsko-Goranski Partisan Detachment—I figured that out myself after digging into one officer's name. post #39 in this thread (check out posts #46, 47, etc.). You basically "invented" some term that doesn't exist in any actual records and makes zero sense. Any American who wanted to fight the occupiers and their lackeys joined the National Liberation Movement or the NOVJ, which were founded and ran by the Communist Party. There weren't any other units. It doesn't matter what your personal feelings or sympathies are—that's just how it happened.

Where I messed up—and where lonetrucker4 could have steered me away from it, I'll admit—was using the term IRS.

You already tripped up by passing off that acronym like it actually shows up in some official document. Even when I pointed it out, you just casually admitted you made it up and kept doubling down. You "invented" the idea that the term AFP is somehow "more precise" than just saying "Partisans." (post #4) And here you are, a year later, doing the exact same thing.

And look, once again, you're proving you just refuse to grasp the basics.

The official name for the armed forces of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the Yugoslav Royal Army. In this specific thread, I used the term JKVO / Yugoslav Royal Government in exile, and lonetrucker4 warned me not to because the term used was YVA / Yugoslav Army in the Homeland...
So what? How does that change anything? Where am I losing the context?

It changes everything, because the official name of that military was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, it's "Yugoslav," not "Jugoslav"). Look, you can't just cook up your own names. It isn't "unnecessary rigidity" like you're complaining about. It's necessary precision. You stick to the facts; you're allowed to interpret them however you want.

Anyway, am I even allowed to express myself on this Reddit how I see fit?

No, not if you're just spreading confusion and making stuff up.

Just try to understand where I'm coming from.
I can't let you turn this sub-Reddit into your own private playground. It doesn't belong to you; it belongs to all of us.
Stop persecuting us. Just let the discussion flow.
Sanction actual hate, hate speech, or insults. But don't pull this kind of psychological torture.
You're killing the desire to participate in this forum. Which is even more tragic because you're actually a great conversationalist and a competent one at that.
Quote:So,

lonetrucker4 says: You're changing the subject, because the official name of that military force was the "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" (and by the way, not "Jugoslavenska"). Yeah, you shouldn't just make up your own names. It's not "unnecessary rigidity," as you claim. It's necessary rigidity. You have to stick to the facts, even if you're allowed to interpret them in different ways.

wait, are you seriously telling me I should be using "Yugoslav" instead of "Yugoslavian"?

But look, the real question is where those other two moderators from pdf.History ended up?

Let me say this again... lonetrucker4 knows his stuff when it comes to History. Seriously, the guy is a walking encyclopedia—fast with the facts, deep into the sources, and he’s got a knack for connecting the dots like nobody else.
But, man, it can't just be all about Tito and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia.
That kind of gatekeeping makes it impossible to just hang out and be active on Reddit without feeling like you're walking on eggshells. You can't just have a relaxed debate without facing constant harassment, threats, or having your posts wiped away by nonstop censorship—it’s basically like they're dictating "rules" on how we're allowed to speak.

None of that helps pdf.History at all.
New people aren't joining when the old crowd is constantly getting pushed out.
There's just this overwhelming sense of control and frantic punishment everywhere.
The excitement is gone, that laid-back vibe is dead... everything that made this Reddit community what it was supposed to be... our Zoran is just crushing it all for a quick snack.

It's a damn shame. And honestly, it's killing the community.

Just more pathetic proof that my teaching efforts are a total wash.

You weren't invited here to play parent; you're supposed to be editing from a neutral standpoint—with actual logic and balance.
The way you use your "teaching" style is nothing short of an abuse of power.
All you’re doing is creating a wasteland of content, slapping shackles on everything just so you can force the whole thing into a tiny little box that fits your own narrow worldview.

Reddit isn't some playground for the selfish or the arrogant.
Anything goes, sure, but there have to be limits.

Jonathan Wright2 said:You weren't invited here to play parent; you're supposed to be editing from a neutral standpoint—with actual logic and balance.
The way you use your "teaching" style is nothing short of an abuse of power.
All you’re doing is creating a wasteland of content, slapping shackles on everything just so you can force the whole thing into a tiny little box that fits your own narrow worldview.

Reddit isn't some playground for the selfish or the arrogant.
Anything goes, sure, but there have to be limits.

Propagandist 🤣

Neither Oštrić nor KLCCLK from the newspaper are actually to blame here—not at all. It’s really on the owner... if you just take a look at the Monitor, you'll see what I mean. Just giving you the best that the progressives and Yugoslavia have to offer...

Look, Anderlon is entitled to his own opinion. It's not even like he's solely to blame here.
Calling out the mods is totally fine—it just doesn't actually change anything in the end.
A moderator shouldn't act like they're some untouchable authority figure. And for heaven's sake, they definitely shouldn't be above criticism.