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Handball Euro Finals: America vs. Denmark 20:24

Started by Kevin Morris12 · · 👁 9 views · 1K replies

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Participants Kevin Morris12rapidbison42vividangler44Terry Rodriguez41electricnomad11Bradley Nelson2Lisa Sanchez8boldhound8Jonathan Reed4Kevin Roberts7Terry Fisher2Lisa Miller7Sophia Rivera402Jesse BakerNoah ThompsonCharles Fox10vividbadger182John BoothAgoldenbison4David Taylor13Anthony Roberts2Raymond Palmer8nimbledriver81 …
Charles Martin2 Charles Martin2 Active Member
103 messages
joined Jun 2007
#1001 ·
Lisa Ross14 said:Stop whining about stuff you clearly don't understand. If it wasn't for him, they wouldn't have even made it out of the group stage—because let's be real, Nikola Balic wouldn't have been playing...
What kind of ridiculous "shaman" nonsense is this? Seriously, go do some actual research first.

Let's gooooooo!
What's with all the insults!!!
You know how it goes—read between the lines and get the vibe!
I hit up the TV subforum again to check out that thread about whether the local networks are bringing back certain shows. Since I’m over here in Germany right now, I couldn't actually watch anything, so I just dropped a quick, "If this turns out to be true..."
He’s saying how it affects his range and exactly what he needs to fix that.
Read this and let me know. What's wrong with it?

Listen, you bioenergetic nutcase!!!!
Thank goodness it wasn't some old witch!
You can knock back some moonshine and smash a bottle over a hornet's nest if you really feel like it!

Let the Danes have the science—and the gold, too.
Frank Vaughn6 Frank Vaughn6 Newcomer
6 messages
joined Jan 2008
#1002 ·
Chris Lopez59 said:you just can't escape pretentious or plain old bad officiating

Look, I trust McAuliffe; if he sat down to break down the match, he’d likely find three or four calls that went against us, and then probably a few that actually worked in our favor. But you can't really fight those "fifty-fifty" calls—those gray area moments where a ref can rule one way or the other and nobody can truly complain. We're talking about situations that are half-breakthrough and half-defensive foul, or messy instances of grabbing and pulling. If you notice a specific official consistently ruling all those ambiguous moments in favor of the same team, then you’re looking at pretentious, biased officiating. No officiating commission is ever going to issue an official reprimand for that kind of thing, yet any objective spectator or player on the court will see exactly what's happening

I wouldn't go so far as to call the semifinals and finals a "robbery," because most of those games were actually fairly officiated, despite the occasional unavoidable mistake. The real headache starts when you stack several questionable calls against you in a row—like three consecutive breakthroughs (two of which were highly debatable), or having two goals wiped out due to fouls (and honestly, even that first goal; I’ve seen dozens of similar plays that usually get counted, whereas our guy just happened to tap the floor with his foot before releasing the ball; in handball, that’s usually ignored, so it feels ridiculous when they call it twice in a final, especially when one instance was totally clean). At the end of the day, even Lino didn't have to serve that two-minute suspension after a yellow card; not every coach gets handed that after a warning.

But that sense of pretentiousness only popped up during a small slice of the game, and frankly, compared to some previous officiating we've endured—especially those blatant robberies—this was actually decent, and we'll have to wait much longer for anything better. To me, the issue wasn't so much pretentiousness as it was a very specific set of criteria that seemed to tolerate excessive roughness. It would be great if they finally defined dangerous fouls—things like pulling or pushing a player at full sprint, or intentional body hits that the refs somehow "miss." A referee should focus on that; instead of staring at the ball, they need to watch the players and what they're actually doing to one another. The rules need to be updated to protect the players, their health, and their career longevity. Our own guys said they "weren't being treated fairly," so clearly, these current standards aren't serving anyone

And I'll say it again... the referee didn't win the final; the team that was (intellectually) capable of playing better handball won it.

I mostly agree with what everyone has said, except for one thing regarding those specific points you pulled out above. When I was looking at the footage myself—just as a layman, mind you—I spotted at least ten glaring errors. Even yesterday afternoon, a professional referee was analyzing the game on ESPN and found, I believe, about 12 obvious mistakes. It was mentioned that the US Handball Federation will be filing an official protest.

So, my opinion—which might not be right, but it is still an opinion—is that in the final, rather than just any random game, Huelin didn't just make three or four bad calls in close situations; he made 12 blatant errors that felt intentionally biased, at least from my perspective after watching the replay several times and hearing our resident officiating expert break it down on ESPN yesterday afternoon.

In my view, this isn't some gray area, nor is it a case of accidental or unintentional bias. It feels like a deliberate violation of the rules at the expense of one team, happening almost constantly after the 24-minute mark of the first half when things were still tied. And to be clear, I’m talking about one specific Spaniard, Huelin, not an entire group of people.

I don't really know how to explain it, but there's just this intuitive sense of being cheated that both the Danish and American viewers are feeling, and honestly, that's bad for handball and bad for sports in general. So many sports have been messed up by various kinds of cheating, from doping to match-fixing... it's pretty messy. At least five of my friends told me after the game that because of Huelin, they'll probably approach future matches with a healthy dose of skepticism and suspicion, even if they try to watch discreetly. For us handball fans, it's just not good when one irresponsible guy ruins the experience like this.
neonharbor18 neonharbor18 Member
26 messages
joined Nov 2007
#1003 ·
I honestly don't see any real benefit in our federation lodging complaints; if anyone should be raising an outcry, it ought to be the Danish Handball Association. They should really gather up all these officiating blunders and tell them, "Don't you ever disgrace us again by downplaying the achievement of the European Champions. We won, sure, but we wanted to win through integrity and hard work, not because of someone's malice, stupidity, or—heaven forbid—actual theft. Don't embarrass us or any other national team with such blatant bias." I feel the same way about what the US Soccer Federation should have done after that infamous USA-Italy match during the World Cup—which, if I recall, was perhaps the most egregious case of biased officiating I've ever witnessed in our favor at the expense of the Italians. You only have to think back to the legend Goran Ivanišević 🙏🙏🙏 and how many times he would actually go to the official just to admit the opponent's ball was in, even when it looked out, rather than taking the call himself. That's precisely why he was loved everywhere in the world, and I suspect tournament organizers would still jump at the chance to have him at any event today ☕
boldhound8 boldhound8 Regular
437 messages
joined Oct 2007
#1004 ·
Yeah, right. Like an appeal is actually gonna do us any good. They’ll just hand the gold to the Danes and give it to us instead.🙂 The only thing an appeal gets us is making enemies we don't need...

Dammit, the guys said it themselves—we just weren't good enough. Period. If they had been at their best (rested, ready, etc.), the refs wouldn't have stood a chance of stopping them from taking the gold. So just own it. They owned it back on Sunday, so let's move on.😉
All in all, the officiating was pretty much fair across the board. I don't have anything to complain about regarding the refs. They gave a little to the Danes, took a little from Norway, but overall, we broke even somewhere in the middle.😉
cosmicraven44 cosmicraven44 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Jan 2008
#1005 ·
boldhound8 said:Yeah, right. Like an appeal is actually gonna do us any good. They’ll just hand the gold to the Danes and give it to us instead.🙂 The only thing an appeal gets us is making enemies we don't need...

Dammit, the guys said it themselves—we just weren't good enough. Period. If they had been at their best (rested, ready, etc.), the refs wouldn't have stood a chance of stopping them from taking the gold. So just own it. They owned it back on Sunday, so let's move on.😉
All in all, the officiating was pretty much fair across the board. I don't have anything to complain about regarding the refs. They gave a little to the Danes, took a little from Norway, but overall, we broke even somewhere in the middle.😉

If I recall correctly, a powerhouse squad like Norway picked up their first suspension around the 33rd or 34th minute during their match against the US—a period where our technical specialists were mostly busy absorbing hits and racking up penalties themselves. It was almost comical.
James Garcia22 James Garcia22 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2008
#1006 ·
cosmicraven44 said:If I recall correctly, a powerhouse squad like Norway picked up their first suspension around the 33rd or 34th minute during their match against the US—a period where our technical specialists were mostly busy absorbing hits and racking up penalties themselves. It was almost comical.

And just how many Norway games have you actually sat through besides that one against us if you're gonna claim they're some kind of hooligan squad?

There wasn't any real dirty play or smashing happening when they played us...

I mean, alright, maybe if you're watching it with Bog Sušec doing the commentary...☕
Maria Ortiz61 Maria Ortiz61 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Feb 2008
#1007 ·
Get ready, because we're hosting soon, so the home-field advantage will definitely be on our side.🤣
briskcanyon83 briskcanyon83 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jan 2008
#1008 ·
The absolute turning point had to be those fouls by Červar—completely unnecessary, if you ask me... but there it is. I truly believe being down a man for four minutes during the final stretch of the game, right when the pressure is at its peak, was what ultimately cost us this match. We were finally closing the gap on the defense, trailing by just two, and then Mr. Linek stepped in, which only seemed to ramp up the tension among the players...
I honestly think we could have walked away with the win, given that we all know who the true masters of those chaotic, nail-biting final seconds are 😁

Regardless, this silver medal shines just as bright as gold in my eyes... and I have nothing but respect for these guys. Four medals in five years? I can't recall anyone else in American team sports ever pulling off a run quite like this...

Bravo, boys 😁
Chris Lopez59 Chris Lopez59 Active Member
61 messages
joined May 2007
#1009 ·
James Garcia22 said:And just how many Norway games have you actually sat through besides that one against us if you're gonna claim they're some kind of hooligan squad?

There wasn't any real dirty play or smashing happening when they played us...

I mean, alright, maybe if you're watching it with Bog Sušec doing the commentary...☕

So what, are our guys just lying through their teeth whenever they claim some national team played them dirty or physically overwhelmed them?

Norway and France are definitely part of that club of teams that play a pretty gritty, dirty game.
cosmicraven44 cosmicraven44 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Jan 2008
#1010 ·
James Garcia22 said:And just how many Norway games have you actually sat through besides that one against us if you're gonna claim they're some kind of hooligan squad?

There wasn't any real dirty play or smashing happening when they played us...

I mean, alright, maybe if you're watching it with Bog Sušec doing the commentary...☕

I've seen enough. If you picked up six random girls off the street, they’d probably be handed a two-minute penalty by the 33rd minute—unlike these six thugs. Take Balić, for example—he’d grab the ball, pull a move, cut left or right, and then—BAM. The first defender hits him, the second one puts him on the floor. Then you watch them penalize one of our players, then you rewatch the replay, then you watch the replay from a different angle, then you look at the people around you, and then you go back to the replay. It can happen once, maybe twice, but seeing it this often across so many games isn't a coincidence. I don't recall us ever dealing with officiating this poor.
James Garcia22 James Garcia22 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2008
#1011 ·
Chris Lopez59 said:So what, are our guys just lying through their teeth whenever they claim some national team played them dirty or physically overwhelmed them?

Norway and France are definitely part of that club of teams that play a pretty gritty, dirty game.

Nači didn't even mention anything about how Norway plays dirty. He was only talking about that "rough" style from France that the refs kept letting slide, and honestly, even Dominikovć admitted they weren't exactly playing saintly themselves either ☕

As for those Norwegians, Božek already said everything there needs to be said...
shadowsailor85 shadowsailor85 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jan 2008
#1012 ·
Lisa Ross14 said:Stop whining about stuff you clearly don't understand. If it wasn't for him, they wouldn't have even made it out of the group stage—because let's be real, Nikola Balic wouldn't have been playing...
What kind of ridiculous "shaman" nonsense is this? Seriously, go do some actual research first.

Exactly. I actually met Domančić in person a few years back—the guy is a legend!
Chris Lopez59 Chris Lopez59 Active Member
61 messages
joined May 2007
#1013 ·
James Garcia22 said:Nači didn't even mention anything about how Norway plays dirty. He was only talking about that "rough" style from France that the refs kept letting slide, and honestly, even Dominikovć admitted they weren't exactly playing saintly themselves either ☕

As for those Norwegians, Božek already said everything there needs to be said...

If I recall correctly, a few of the players were actually talking about getting absolutely leveled by those Norwegians...
Adam Collins4 Adam Collins4 Regular
502 messages
joined Apr 2013
#1014 ·
Frank Vaughn6 said:I mostly agree with what everyone has said, except for one thing regarding those specific points you pulled out above. When I was looking at the footage myself—just as a layman, mind you—I spotted at least ten glaring errors. Even yesterday afternoon, a professional referee was analyzing the game on ESPN and found, I believe, about 12 obvious mistakes. It was mentioned that the US Handball Federation will be filing an official protest.

So, my opinion—which might not be right, but it is still an opinion—is that in the final, rather than just any random game, Huelin didn't just make three or four bad calls in close situations; he made 12 blatant errors that felt intentionally biased, at least from my perspective after watching the replay several times and hearing our resident officiating expert break it down on ESPN yesterday afternoon.

In my view, this isn't some gray area, nor is it a case of accidental or unintentional bias. It feels like a deliberate violation of the rules at the expense of one team, happening almost constantly after the 24-minute mark of the first half when things were still tied. And to be clear, I’m talking about one specific Spaniard, Huelin, not an entire group of people.

I don't really know how to explain it, but there's just this intuitive sense of being cheated that both the Danish and American viewers are feeling, and honestly, that's bad for handball and bad for sports in general. So many sports have been messed up by various kinds of cheating, from doping to match-fixing... it's pretty messy. At least five of my friends told me after the game that because of Huelin, they'll probably approach future matches with a healthy dose of skepticism and suspicion, even if they try to watch discreetly. For us handball fans, it's just not good when one irresponsible guy ruins the experience like this.

The total point count in an NBA game is usually 100, or 95 if there's no video review... since we had video review here, the total was 100... and there were 13 errors made during the game... even if some were debatable...

That works out to a score of 87. I'd love to know if that referee would have signed a contract beforehand to guarantee himself an 87% rating...

And then I'd ask him if he's ever actually received a grade that high in his career... because that is an incredibly high mark.

Don't get me wrong, the officiating was terrible... but when you crunch the numbers based on the volume of errors, the mathematical grade doesn't actually come out that low.

By the way, which official was analyzing the game?
Adam Collins4 Adam Collins4 Regular
502 messages
joined Apr 2013
#1015 ·
Chris Lopez59 said:you just can't escape pretentious or plain old bad officiating

Look, I trust McAuliffe; if he sat down to break down the match, he’d likely find three or four calls that went against us, and then probably a few that actually worked in our favor. But you can't really fight those "fifty-fifty" calls—those gray area moments where a ref can rule one way or the other and nobody can truly complain. We're talking about situations that are half-breakthrough and half-defensive foul, or messy instances of grabbing and pulling. If you notice a specific official consistently ruling all those ambiguous moments in favor of the same team, then you’re looking at pretentious, biased officiating. No officiating commission is ever going to issue an official reprimand for that kind of thing, yet any objective spectator or player on the court will see exactly what's happening

I wouldn't go so far as to call the semifinals and finals a "robbery," because most of those games were actually fairly officiated, despite the occasional unavoidable mistake. The real headache starts when you stack several questionable calls against you in a row—like three consecutive breakthroughs (two of which were highly debatable), or having two goals wiped out due to fouls (and honestly, even that first goal; I’ve seen dozens of similar plays that usually get counted, whereas our guy just happened to tap the floor with his foot before releasing the ball; in handball, that’s usually ignored, so it feels ridiculous when they call it twice in a final, especially when one instance was totally clean). At the end of the day, even Lino didn't have to serve that two-minute suspension after a yellow card; not every coach gets handed that after a warning.

But that sense of pretentiousness only popped up during a small slice of the game, and frankly, compared to some previous officiating we've endured—especially those blatant robberies—this was actually decent, and we'll have to wait much longer for anything better. To me, the issue wasn't so much pretentiousness as it was a very specific set of criteria that seemed to tolerate excessive roughness. It would be great if they finally defined dangerous fouls—things like pulling or pushing a player at full sprint, or intentional body hits that the refs somehow "miss." A referee should focus on that; instead of staring at the ball, they need to watch the players and what they're actually doing to one another. The rules need to be updated to protect the players, their health, and their career longevity. Our own guys said they "weren't being treated fairly," so clearly, these current standards aren't serving anyone

And I'll say it again... the referee didn't win the final; the team that was (intellectually) capable of playing better handball won it.

Regarding Cupic's jump, I don't think the ref called it as touching the space before the ball left his hand, but rather a step on the line...

There's a rule regarding "dangerous" fouls... pulling someone's arm from behind, taking out a player on a fast break, pushing someone in the hip... all of that is an automatic ejection. Except, if you take out a guy running a fast break, it's an ejection plus a technical shot.

A flagrant foul (striking) means an ejection for the rest of the game—meaning that team is stuck playing 4-on-5 until the buzzer, unless a bench player steps in, in which case it's just an ejection.

Refs usually watch for flagrants, but sometimes it's just impossible to see... especially when two defenders sandwich a player, where one blocks the ref's view while the other lands the blow. We need to shift our angle for maybe two or three seconds to get a better look, but in that window, a veteran player like Dinart or Špoljarić can absolutely wreck an attacker's ribs.
Adam Collins4 Adam Collins4 Regular
502 messages
joined Apr 2013
#1016 ·
Frank Vaughn6 said:You really need to remember these referees' names:
Vicente Breto and Jose Antonio Huelin.

After that ridiculous scoreline at the 24-minute mark, the refs basically handed the series to Dance on a silver platter. They blew two wrong calls on Vori and then completely ignored a blatant passive play foul on Balica. That four-goal deficit hung over us for the rest of the game; every single time we managed to claw back within two or three points, the officials made some questionable call against us. We had two goals wiped off the board and picked up a six-minute penalty just for reacting, which happened without any warning. Then there was that bad call on Cupic in the 53rd minute when he was twisting, followed by another two-minute penalty for protesting. This isn't how you officiate a final. It doesn't even matter if we were better or if the Danes were better, or who was more tired—that’s all irrelevant. You just can't call a game like this. Regardless of how well-behaved our guys were—and they really tried not to mention the refs at all, except maybe Balica—these specific officials shouldn't be allowed to ref a World Championship in Chicago. Officiating a final like that is bad for the sport, bad for the American national team, bad for the fans, and frankly, just goes against basic Spanish upbringing. Someone needs to give them a bit of a reality check, otherwise, they'll think they can just screw people over whenever they feel like it.

So, yeah,
Vicente Breto and Jose Antonio Huelin.

A warning is only necessary if someone steps too far back during a free throw... you know, the 3-meter rule...

But if a tough guy like Vori—after a legitimate foul is called—starts acting up because there isn't a pivot willing to shove players out of the way with their backside, then protests, moves the ball a yard away, and kicks it? Yeah, he gets 2 minutes...

End of story. Look, even if I make a bad call myself, do you honestly think I'm going to second-guess my own decision and ruin my own reputation just because you asked me nicely? And obviously, once you start complaining, you're getting tossed. A ref is just protecting their own authority... I'm not saying that's right, but that's how it works.
Adam Collins4 Adam Collins4 Regular
502 messages
joined Apr 2013
#1017 ·
Lisa Sanchez8 said:🙏 🙏 🙏
Ladić and Mraz are a disaster on top of a disaster. They're lucky they haven't been beaten up in the stands a few times by now. There’s another terrible pair too, but I can't recall their names right now. American refs are pathetic. I'm really curious if any of our "phenomenal" officiating duos will actually be out on the field in 2009. 🤮

And where exactly are you getting this idea about Ladić-Mraz from?
Posavec-Sokol are actually solid referees—you can tell by the caliber of games they get assigned...
Kasunić-Matovina aren't half bad either...

And yeah, Gubica-Maddox... they're young guys, they were even officiating the Junior World Cup or Euro last year...
The talent is there, it's just that nobody's pushing to get them onto those major tournament rosters...

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