Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Justin James10 said:It seems easier for you to accept someone being executed for one reason over another. Look, that might be how you feel, but I don't see how that makes it a fact. Imagine if we had to rank whether someone was shot because of their race versus their social class? Does that even make sense? 🙄

And since you want to bring up one class dominating another... what actually changed after the fall of America? It’s just the same story: a small minority of "approved" people dominated society all over again. Families with the wrong background—people who weren't members of the Party—were treated like second-class citizens rather than first-class. Are they supposed to just stay silent about the terror they endured? Should they just listen to fairy tales about a better life now? 🙄

I never said Marshall was Stalin. My point is simply this: I find the cult of personality in the 21st century baffling. You'd think we would have outgrown that kind of thing by now, wouldn't you?

You’re focusing on the ideology itself, while you seem stuck on the Stalinist execution of it.

I suppose I could take the same path and argue that democracy itself is inherently criminal, given that a democratically elected Adolf Hitler was able to slaughter millions of innocent people. We’d just be spinning our wheels in circles, wouldn't we?

And as for this "cult of personality" argument—good grief, it feels like the moment you deviate even slightly from the strictly black-and-white, canonical view of Marshall, you're immediately branded as a follower of a cult. 🙏🙏

Justin James10 said:It seems easier for you to accept someone being executed for one reason over another. Look, that might be how you feel, but I don't see how that makes it a fact. Imagine if we had to rank whether someone was shot because of their race versus their social class? Does that even make sense? 🙄

And since you want to bring up one class dominating another... what actually changed after the fall of America? It’s just the same story: a small minority of "approved" people dominated society all over again. Families with the wrong background—people who weren't members of the Party—were treated like second-class citizens rather than first-class. Are they supposed to just stay silent about the terror they endured? Should they just listen to fairy tales about a better life now? 🙄

I never said Marshall was Stalin. My point is simply this: I find the cult of personality in the 21st century baffling. You'd think we would have outgrown that kind of thing by now, wouldn't you?

True, but there were massive tectonic shifts regarding social mobility—the actual possibility for someone to climb out of extreme poverty or lack of education and secure a decent life and career. It was something our old feudal lords never bothered to provide for the people.

An elite will always exist, and they certainly existed under communism too. But for the "average Joe" who didn't spend his time fighting the regime, the environment was far more forgiving than it had been in the past.

Justin James10 said:It seems easier for you to accept someone being executed for one reason over another. Look, that might be how you feel, but I don't see how that makes it a fact. Imagine if we had to rank whether someone was shot because of their race versus their social class? Does that even make sense? 🙄

And since you want to bring up one class dominating another... what actually changed after the fall of America? It’s just the same story: a small minority of "approved" people dominated society all over again. Families with the wrong background—people who weren't members of the Party—were treated like second-class citizens rather than first-class. Are they supposed to just stay silent about the terror they endured? Should they just listen to fairy tales about a better life now? 🙄

I never said Marshall was Stalin. My point is simply this: I find the cult of personality in the 21st century baffling. You'd think we would have outgrown that kind of thing by now, wouldn't you?

That’s an oversimplification. There was repression, certainly, though it varied in intensity, but claiming it was a universal rule is simply inaccurate. People who didn't push back against the government lived their lives much like anyone else, regardless of party affiliation. Of course, those who did oppose the regime faced harassment. But again, I have to point out that you at least had a choice—something that marginalized groups, such as Jewish or Black Americans under a fascist regime, never had.

brightpilot6 said:You’re focusing on the ideology itself, while you seem stuck on the Stalinist execution of it.

I suppose I could take the same path and argue that democracy itself is inherently criminal, given that a democratically elected Adolf Hitler was able to slaughter millions of innocent people. We’d just be spinning our wheels in circles, wouldn't we?

And as for this "cult of personality" argument—good grief, it feels like the moment you deviate even slightly from the strictly black-and-white, canonical view of Marshall, you're immediately branded as a follower of a cult. 🙏🙏

There isn’t a bigger myth out there than the idea that communism is actually fine, but Stalin just got a little carried away. People act like Stalin was just some scapegoat who took all the blame for the atrocities. But let's be real: the ideology is fundamentally anti-democratic and criminal at its very core. It's written right into its DNA—it calls for a dictatorship of the proletariat, represented by the "vanguard," aka the Party. Beyond just demanding a one-party dictatorship, communism explicitly seeks to wipe out all dissent and abolish private property. If that doesn't qualify as an anti-democratic, criminal ideology, then I don't know what does.

On top of that, communism is chronically an economic failure, which isn't exactly surprising when you realize none of its founding fathers understood basic economics to begin with.

As for Marshall, the situation is exactly the opposite. Anyone who doesn't bow down to his greatness immediately faces fury; back in the good old days, the best way to handle them was a firing squad, wasn't it? 🙄

It’s almost funny how everyone seems to be bowing down to him, isn't it?

Anyway, we’ve made our points, so let's just move on.

brightpilot6 As I was saying:
Has there been a genuine tectonic shift in how we view social mobility? I can't help but wonder: is it finally possible for someone to rise from the depths of poverty and lack of opportunity to achieve this kind of lifestyle, education, and career? It feels like a massive departure from the past, when our old-school industrial titans and landed elites never gave the average American even a fighting chance at such success. Is the playing field finally starting to level out?

The elite will always exist—that’s just human nature, wasn't it? It was the same way back during the era of communism. But if you look at the "little guy"—someone who didn't spend their life sucking up to the regime—life was actually much more manageable then than it is today. Wouldn't you agree?

It’s a bit of a mixed bag, isn't it? While there was certainly repression at times—varying in intensity depending on where you were—to claim that it was a universal rule applied to everyone is simply incorrect. The truth is, those who didn't push back against the regime lived their lives just like anyone else, regardless of whether they were party members or not. It was specifically those who dared to oppose the status quo who faced harassment and targeting. But even so, I have to point out: you at least had the freedom of choice. Isn't that a massive distinction? Under a fascist regime, someone targeted for being Jewish or part of a minority group wouldn't have had that luxury at all.

I’m certainly not disputing that progress has been made. But honestly, hasn't there been some kind of shift happening almost everywhere? It makes you wonder if we're all just witnessing the inevitable spirit of the times. In the West, that transition felt much more jarring and intense. That said, don't get me wrong—I have absolutely no intention of defending feudalism or any of its lingering remnants!

Let’s set aside that classic American tendency to call for silence—that "I don't want to get involved" attitude—and that general submissiveness toward authority. It’s just not true to say there weren't people targeted back then. Thank God, I know this from firsthand experience! If you happened to come from a family deemed "undesirable," you were essentially untouchable; you were treated like the lowest class of citizen. Because of that, people were fleeing the country illegally throughout the fifties, and later on, they were doing it legally too. Honestly, thanks to the "benefits" provided by the regime, I don't have relatives scattered all over the globe! 🙂

Man, what is wrong with you people? It’s not that simple, okay? Everyone carries their own baggage based on what their family went through under whatever regime was running the show. If your relatives were targeted by fascists, then obviously the communists look like the good guys, and if it was the other way around, well, you get the point.

Take my family, for example. They’re pretty much anti-communist in one specific sense because everything they owned was snatched away under the guise of "serving the state." We’re talking about the farmland, the tractors—everything, damn it. But then I ask my old man (and my mom too), and they’re always like, "Eh, it wasn't all bad, they had decent jobs, traveled here and there, all those little perks..." whereas with my grandfather, who was more on the Nazi side, 😁, man, when he was alive, you couldn't even breathe the wrong way if you mentioned the Reds.

But generally speaking, everything just feels pretty bleak, if you know what I mean.

I have never been one to question the suffering of others. It’s like that old saying goes: "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." What I find truly problematic, however, is how the descendants of those who supported the old regime always jump to the defense whenever someone dares to critique their ancestors' unchecked rule. It’s almost as if they believe only their specific version of tragedy carries any weight. Should we really be expected to stay silent about the terror that so many people endured, even now in the 21st century?

ha, descendants of the red brigade 🤣

Look, capitalism was an absolute nightmare back in the late 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries—kids were working in factories, people were pulling 18-hour shifts, and workers had zero rights. Neither Karl Marx nor communism just popped out of nowhere; they were direct responses to the extreme injustices of that era. You really just need to pick up a few books to get a sense of what that time was actually like...

We could also talk about how communism struggled economically, much like how capitalism has its own failures in the West. In China, being the most populous nation on Earth, communism evolved and transformed them into a powerhouse that will likely be the world's top economic force by 2050. Capitalism actually adopted some more humane elements from communist and socialist ideas, while communism in China integrated market components while keeping its essential one-party system. They don't really need Western democracy at all, just like Libya didn't need it either...

Plus, the whole idea of democracy in most Western countries basically boils down to an oligarchy. Americans are often cited as an example of democracy, yet they really only have two parties rotating in power, similar to the situation here. Corporations legally buy politicians through lobbyists, and if you don't have massive amounts of cash for campaigns and party machinery, you can't even compete with political platforms, just like it works here. So, what else would you call it if not an oligarchy?

In America, we might not even need a true democracy; instead, maybe an enlightened quasi-democratic absolutism would work better (which is kind of what we experienced under Marshall and Tuki, and even Sanders). People seem to respond well to that, and they actually enjoy it... 😁

Anthony Jackson2 said:ha, descendants of the red brigade 🤣

Well, speaking from experience, they always end up jumping through hoops at the last minute. Heaven forbid you even question their sacred doctrines! Of course, there are plenty of people on the other side who act just as stubbornly.

James Anderson5, you have completely lost the plot! What kind of "enlightened absolutism" are you even talking about? What on earth 😁

Sure, let's just admit it: we're all descendants of those old-school radicals 🤦

I mean, I've got my whole family's old party membership cards sitting right there in the display case, practically begging for daily veneration.

Honestly, growing up, we used to refer to Marshall as "that old bastard," and we said it with such genuine affection that it almost sounded like a term of endearment (though, truth be told, people eventually started using similar labels for Harmon 🤣 as well). But that's the reality of the modern indoctrination pushed by the Republican Party and the Church today; if you dare to offer even a neutral or—heaven forbid—positive comment about anything from the old America era, you are instantly branded as either a die-hard follower of Marshall, the child of a party loyalist, or some former officer from the old regime. And it goes without saying that in this climate, that label carries the unspoken implication that you're fundamentally against America.

Are we all just descendants of executioners? It feels like my display case is overflowing with nothing but the eyes of our old enemies 🙄

That’s exactly what I’m getting at, old friend. Look, I have absolutely no issue with people having different perspectives, but some folks just lose their minds the second you question the dogma surrounding the "golden age" or their beloved leader. And if you ask me, most of them come from the exact same circles.

Paul Sanders5 said:The real deal—you know, the actual American or British kind, not that Russian mess that turned out to be exactly what they were fighting against in the first place.

I mean, let’s not even get into how perfectly they worked together for years before everything just went south and the friendship imploded, kind of like what happened between the Father and Peyton Manning ☕

Spot on. ☕

No joke, communism was easily the worst thing that ever hit this country. It wasn’t even just about the physical damage—it was what it did to people's souls. It absolutely gutted three whole generations. Maybe the kids coming up now actually stand a chance at escaping that legacy, but that's about it.

Are we still nursing wounds from the mid-1900s? I can’t wait until 2050, when we might finally have a serious conversation about what liberal capitalism actually looked like in America during the 2000s and 2010s.

ruggedjackal46 said:Are we still nursing wounds from the mid-1900s? I can’t wait until 2050, when we might finally have a serious conversation about what liberal capitalism actually looked like in America during the 2000s and 2010s.

There's just way too much raw trauma and personal tragedy involved to ever make that kind of rationalization work.

loneseal said:There's just way too much raw trauma and personal tragedy involved to ever make that kind of rationalization work.

Exactly. Half the country is still reeling from the fallout of the 1940s.

Is liberal capitalism in America actually working? 🤣🤣🤣

Justin James10 said:Well, speaking from experience, they always end up jumping through hoops at the last minute. Heaven forbid you even question their sacred doctrines! Of course, there are plenty of people on the other side who act just as stubbornly.

James Anderson5, you have completely lost the plot! What kind of "enlightened absolutism" are you even talking about? What on earth 😁

I don't usually enjoy quoting this guy, but give this a read

This is what the American people love—not everyone, but definitely the majority who keeps picking the same old thing...

James Anderson5 said:I don't usually enjoy quoting this guy, but give this a read

This is what the American people love—not everyone, but definitely the majority who keeps picking the same old thing...

I've already gone through that. Let's be honest: Americans are stuck in a massive rut, we all know it. Wouldn't enlightened absolutism actually 🤦