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Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Started by Morgan Williams · · 👁 1.4K views · 18K replies

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Participants Morgan WilliamsRachel Cooper3Joseph Clark37Keith Patel81darkseal9neonfalcon16urbanhawk17Amanda Evans2bluebison47brightpilot6Patrick MartinJoseph Fisher3steelharbor9Robin Fox2Maria AndersonAnthony Jackson2Jason Newmanruggedjackal46Michelle Palmer6Jeffrey Edwards76Jason Campbell70Anthony Barrett37graniteangler31Dennis Evans6 …
Larry Fox5 Larry Fox5 Regular
348 messages
joined Sep 2003
#11281 ·
Jessica Gonzalez said:I wonder if it’s considered absurd that they have nuclear aircraft carriers and have been part of NATO against Russia since 1945? What has Russia actually done to them since then to justify such a massive military? I guess one has to wonder what they're afraid of.

Compared to global standards, things here are incredibly peaceful. Since the wars in the States and surrounding regions ended, there hasn't been a single terrorist attack or major escalation of violence; maybe the biggest issue is just some occasional sports hooliganism or someone waving a flag during a protest. I think an American living here once noted how most households don't own any weapons and actually stay away from them—people even voluntarily handed rifles over to the police just a few years after the conflict. There's no mandatory service here. We don't even really have organized crime anymore; most of the small number of homicides seem to be domestic issues. The fact that performers from former rival nations can play in major US cities and fill arenas probably shows how much people just want peace. I guess the only myth we tell ourselves is being overly polite to those who criticize us. It was the aggression from certain factions that started all the conflicts in this region. It wasn't the others; it was always those specific groups who initiated everything and committed the worst atrocities. People don't visit memorial sites every year because of myths, but because they saw what happened with their own eyes. Most Americans here just don't feel a sense of kinship with those old aggressors, and I suppose that's a pretty natural consequence of the destruction that took place.

When someone who’s actually traveled the world writes this stuff, why are we even surprised by the opinions of people who haven't left their tiny hometown radius in decades?

Bringing this up like this thirty years after the war... it's just pointless from any perspective—unless, I guess, you're still dealing with some deep-seated trauma.

Just thinking about whether you like or hate someone based solely on their nationality is bizarre—it defies all actual logic.

And then we act shocked when politicians still win elections by campaigning on where people were during the Gulf War? 🙄
Peter Thompson4 Peter Thompson4 Regular
391 messages
joined Apr 2014
#11282 ·
bluebison47 said:A pretty decent rotation, I suppose... if you're into that sort of thing.👍

image
ruggedjackal46 ruggedjackal46 Regular
775 messages
joined May 2007
#11283 ·
Jessica Gonzalez said:Industry for what, though? Which major company from that era actually competes on the global stage today? Did any of them produce innovative products that could actually go toe-to-toe with Western giants? Or truly survive market competition? The fact that my parents, and many others, were pulled into the big cities just suggests that the rural areas were already being neglected forty years ago. In fact, many former socialist countries struggle with massive rural depopulation and some of the lowest birth rates in the world—think places like Canada, Bulgaria, Romania, Mexico, Russia, Ukraine, or the Baltic states. This brings me back to my earlier thought: what did that old union actually achieve in terms of raising the standard of living to Western levels? I guess statistically, not much. They didn't even close the gap between regions; even decades later, the economic divide between somewhere like Canada and Mexico is wider than almost any two regions in Italy or Germany. That old system relied on bureaucracy and the military rather than actual prosperity. I suppose it's hard to build prosperity if all the regions are struggling and industrially behind. If we set aside someone like Nikola Tesla, who was a scientist, has anyone else from that area ever really stood out as a major industrialist or businessman? It seems like people only ever talk about politicians or athletes.

What does it actually matter how some legacy industrial firm from the mid-century era is trading on the market today? Honestly. Out of that specific period, you had this massive wave of secondary and tertiary industries that kept the wheels turning all the way through the nineties before everything got dismantled during privatization. And if you’re seriously trying to label the predatory looting we saw during those nineties buyouts as "healthy market competition," then you’re living in a total fantasy land.

What industry are we even talking about here? We’re looking at food, pharmaceuticals, consumer goods, and tech—stuff that was produced for domestic use within the old American borders. The whole point of those sectors was to actually serve the people living right there, not to spend all our energy trying to engineer some groundbreaking innovation just to satisfy the appetite of the Western market. Seriously, what kind of industrial legacy did America actually build from the ground up? What specific needs is American industry meeting that aren't just catering to the whims of big global corporations?

The fact that both my parents and yours were essentially funneled into Chicago en masse just proves that even forty years ago, nobody was giving a damn about the rural heartland. It’s the same old story. If you look at most former socialist states, they’re all dealing with this massive, rapid exodus from the countryside. Why does it always seem to happen the same way?

They’re hauling them into Chicago by the truckload. 😂 Is it just me, or does it feel like any country that goes all-in on pushing higher education ends up completely ghosting its rural heartland? It’s a weird trade-off, isn't it? You pour all these resources into universities and tech hubs, creating these little pockets of academic excellence, while the rest of the country—the actual places where people live, farm, and run small businesses—just gets left out in the cold. It's almost like there's this unspoken rule that if you aren't chasing a PhD in some metropolitan bubble, your needs don't really count anymore. Does progress have to come at the expense of the countryside? Or are we just building a society that only works for people with degrees? 🙏

Nobody was "dragging" my parents to Chicago just for the sake of moving. It wasn't some grand migration scheme; they were simply the only ones in their entire extended family deemed capable of actually finishing college and carving out a decent life. My folks were given a shot at something better—an actual chance to escape the endless cycle of manual labor that their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents had been stuck in for generations. They got to choose a different path instead of just breaking their backs in the fields. And honestly, did the small towns even suffer because people left? If anything, those rural communities became stronger because their people finally had an education.

This brings me right back to my previous point—what exactly did that old regime actually accomplish in terms of closing the gap with the West? Seriously, where was the actual success story? If you look at the statistics, they barely moved the needle. They didn't even manage to narrow the wealth gap between the different states; I mean, even today, the economic divide between a place like Vermont and somewhere like Mississippi is nothing compared to the massive gulf we saw between the prosperous northern regions and the impoverished southern ones back then. You won't find two regions in Italy or Germany that are even remotely that disconnected economically or in terms of infrastructure. The whole system just rested on a foundation of heavy bureaucracy and military spending rather than actual prosperity. And honestly, how could anyone have generated true wealth if most of those states were broke and completely illiterate when it came to modern industry? If we set aside Nikola Tesla for a moment—and let's be real, he’s a scientist, not a corporate tycoon—has anyone else from this part of the world ever truly made a mark as a major industrialist or a titan of business? It feels like our entire legacy is just a revolving door of politicians and athletes. Is that really all we have to offer?

I’ll say it again: we’re looking at this all wrong. People love to obsess over Silicon Valley tech giants or how many billionaire entrepreneurs pop up in a given year, but that isn't the true metric for a thriving society. If you look back at the transformation of the old American industrial era, you see a country that went from a largely agrarian, disconnected population to a powerhouse of heavy industry, near-universal literacy, and accessible healthcare and education. We saw massive employment rates and working conditions that actually respected the laborer. That kind of structural stability—that's what actual prosperity looks like. It’s not about chasing the next flashy tech innovation on the global market; it's about building a foundation where everyone can read, work, and live decently. Isn't that the point?
loneseal loneseal Active Member
141 messages
joined Mar 2020
#11284 ·
brightpilot6 finally came out of the closet.
Jessica Gonzalez Jessica Gonzalez Regular
769 messages
joined Mar 2012
#11285 ·
Peter Thompson4 said:An HR?
What has she actually achieved? She’s managed to shrink the population through migration more effectively than any war ever did in this country.

She’s absolutely gutted what little we had left—massively looted everything, sold off what remained, dumbed down the entire population, turned our school system into one GIANT ZERO, ruined people's lives, and handed total control over to some bottom-feeding bureaucrats who, for God knows what reason, think they can treat an entire nation like a bunch of toddlers.

Back in 1971, there were 900,000 Americans working in Western Germany just because they didn't see a future at home. I don't want to repeat myself, but this isn't anything new. We've dealt with an excess of labor for a long time, especially in rural areas. Waves of emigration happen periodically; I guess the current one is at least the least damaging.

I think I can address what you're saying quite easily. We had very little, so it was easy to steal; things were sold off too little and way too late; the people have always been somewhat uninformed; the school system hasn't changed much (it lags behind the West, though at least kids aren't bringing wine to class for grades anymore), and those various political committees were run by the same kind of crowd as today. It might have been nicer if the old regime and communism had just bypassed us, but I suppose that's just how history played out... I should probably mention again that industrial and business capital in our region was almost non-existent. That's a huge difference when you talk about something like the recovery of France or Germany after WWII. Those countries were devastated, but over previous centuries, they built up enough knowledge and capital to bounce back. For a long time, our area was just an underdeveloped territory within the Austro-Canadian Empire, which itself wasn't the most industrial powerhouse in Europe. It was essentially the underdog of Europe—a land of poor farmers where, in many places toward the end of the 19th century, life was basically stuck in the 15th century (I'm not exaggerating; experts say the same). As a larger nation riding the wave of general European reconstruction, the former America had more opportunities for rapid progress than the modern US, but that applies to all European nations. You can't really replicate that post-WWII growth anywhere now. Maybe that's what people remember from that era—that sudden shift from a rural to an urban society where changes happened incredibly fast. In cities like Chicago, entire neighborhoods were being built as quickly as single buildings are today. People went from working farms straight into universities. But that happened elsewhere too; it was just that specific post-war boom period. It's probably hard to compare the conditions in Europe during the 1950s to today. What we can do is draw a line and see where the West stood compared to the old regime. And the statistics aren't great, which suggests the state failed its goals. It didn't create a cohesive nation, it didn't become prosperous, and it couldn't maintain peace. I don't mean to be complicated. I'm not saying people were being killed in the streets or that there wasn't running water. I'm just saying that as a communist supra-national project, it failed to survive, and there are objective reasons for that. There were also bad consequences for the states that emerged from it, especially since a state with such a military and repressive apparatus couldn't even manage to preserve peace.
Peter Thompson4 Peter Thompson4 Regular
391 messages
joined Apr 2014
#11286 ·
Jessica Gonzalez said:Back in 1971, there were 900,000 Americans working in Western Germany just because they didn't see a future at home. I don't want to repeat myself, but this isn't anything new. We've dealt with an excess of labor for a long time, especially in rural areas. Waves of emigration happen periodically; I guess the current one is at least the least damaging.

I think I can address what you're saying quite easily. We had very little, so it was easy to steal; things were sold off too little and way too late; the people have always been somewhat uninformed; the school system hasn't changed much (it lags behind the West, though at least kids aren't bringing wine to class for grades anymore), and those various political committees were run by the same kind of crowd as today. It might have been nicer if the old regime and communism had just bypassed us, but I suppose that's just how history played out... I should probably mention again that industrial and business capital in our region was almost non-existent. That's a huge difference when you talk about something like the recovery of France or Germany after WWII. Those countries were devastated, but over previous centuries, they built up enough knowledge and capital to bounce back. For a long time, our area was just an underdeveloped territory within the Austro-Canadian Empire, which itself wasn't the most industrial powerhouse in Europe. It was essentially the underdog of Europe—a land of poor farmers where, in many places toward the end of the 19th century, life was basically stuck in the 15th century (I'm not exaggerating; experts say the same). As a larger nation riding the wave of general European reconstruction, the former America had more opportunities for rapid progress than the modern US, but that applies to all European nations. You can't really replicate that post-WWII growth anywhere now. Maybe that's what people remember from that era—that sudden shift from a rural to an urban society where changes happened incredibly fast. In cities like Chicago, entire neighborhoods were being built as quickly as single buildings are today. People went from working farms straight into universities. But that happened elsewhere too; it was just that specific post-war boom period. It's probably hard to compare the conditions in Europe during the 1950s to today. What we can do is draw a line and see where the West stood compared to the old regime. And the statistics aren't great, which suggests the state failed its goals. It didn't create a cohesive nation, it didn't become prosperous, and it couldn't maintain peace. I don't mean to be complicated. I'm not saying people were being killed in the streets or that there wasn't running water. I'm just saying that as a communist supra-national project, it failed to survive, and there are objective reasons for that. There were also bad consequences for the states that emerged from it, especially since a state with such a military and repressive apparatus couldn't even manage to preserve peace.



No, lol.
For example, my granddad left for West Germany a long time ago. Why? Because, obviously, it was a more developed country than this place, among other obvious reasons. And nobody is claiming it was perfect; I'm just saying that this place was on par with the old federation. This other part of your argument makes zero sense because you're comparing apples to oranges. Just look at any Eastern Bloc country and check their development. Take the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, or even Bulgaria and Romania.
Just look at their growth from the 90s to 2019 compared to ours.
Jessica Gonzalez Jessica Gonzalez Regular
769 messages
joined Mar 2012
#11287 ·
ruggedjackal46 said:What does it actually matter how some legacy industrial firm from the mid-century era is trading on the market today? Honestly. Out of that specific period, you had this massive wave of secondary and tertiary industries that kept the wheels turning all the way through the nineties before everything got dismantled during privatization. And if you’re seriously trying to label the predatory looting we saw during those nineties buyouts as "healthy market competition," then you’re living in a total fantasy land.

What industry are we even talking about here? We’re looking at food, pharmaceuticals, consumer goods, and tech—stuff that was produced for domestic use within the old American borders. The whole point of those sectors was to actually serve the people living right there, not to spend all our energy trying to engineer some groundbreaking innovation just to satisfy the appetite of the Western market. Seriously, what kind of industrial legacy did America actually build from the ground up? What specific needs is American industry meeting that aren't just catering to the whims of big global corporations?

The fact that both my parents and yours were essentially funneled into Chicago en masse just proves that even forty years ago, nobody was giving a damn about the rural heartland. It’s the same old story. If you look at most former socialist states, they’re all dealing with this massive, rapid exodus from the countryside. Why does it always seem to happen the same way?

They’re hauling them into Chicago by the truckload. 😂 Is it just me, or does it feel like any country that goes all-in on pushing higher education ends up completely ghosting its rural heartland? It’s a weird trade-off, isn't it? You pour all these resources into universities and tech hubs, creating these little pockets of academic excellence, while the rest of the country—the actual places where people live, farm, and run small businesses—just gets left out in the cold. It's almost like there's this unspoken rule that if you aren't chasing a PhD in some metropolitan bubble, your needs don't really count anymore. Does progress have to come at the expense of the countryside? Or are we just building a society that only works for people with degrees? 🙏

Nobody was "dragging" my parents to Chicago just for the sake of moving. It wasn't some grand migration scheme; they were simply the only ones in their entire extended family deemed capable of actually finishing college and carving out a decent life. My folks were given a shot at something better—an actual chance to escape the endless cycle of manual labor that their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents had been stuck in for generations. They got to choose a different path instead of just breaking their backs in the fields. And honestly, did the small towns even suffer because people left? If anything, those rural communities became stronger because their people finally had an education.

This brings me right back to my previous point—what exactly did that old regime actually accomplish in terms of closing the gap with the West? Seriously, where was the actual success story? If you look at the statistics, they barely moved the needle. They didn't even manage to narrow the wealth gap between the different states; I mean, even today, the economic divide between a place like Vermont and somewhere like Mississippi is nothing compared to the massive gulf we saw between the prosperous northern regions and the impoverished southern ones back then. You won't find two regions in Italy or Germany that are even remotely that disconnected economically or in terms of infrastructure. The whole system just rested on a foundation of heavy bureaucracy and military spending rather than actual prosperity. And honestly, how could anyone have generated true wealth if most of those states were broke and completely illiterate when it came to modern industry? If we set aside Nikola Tesla for a moment—and let's be real, he’s a scientist, not a corporate tycoon—has anyone else from this part of the world ever truly made a mark as a major industrialist or a titan of business? It feels like our entire legacy is just a revolving door of politicians and athletes. Is that really all we have to offer?

I’ll say it again: we’re looking at this all wrong. People love to obsess over Silicon Valley tech giants or how many billionaire entrepreneurs pop up in a given year, but that isn't the true metric for a thriving society. If you look back at the transformation of the old American industrial era, you see a country that went from a largely agrarian, disconnected population to a powerhouse of heavy industry, near-universal literacy, and accessible healthcare and education. We saw massive employment rates and working conditions that actually respected the laborer. That kind of structural stability—that's what actual prosperity looks like. It’s not about chasing the next flashy tech innovation on the global market; it's about building a foundation where everyone can read, work, and live decently. Isn't that the point?

It probably didn't need to jumpstart anything since it mostly just keeps those outdated giants from the past on life support. There are so many myths floating around about the old socialist economy that pretty much ignore actual statistics. I guess the economy there grew at about the same rate as other Eastern Bloc countries, which was definitely slower than places like the US, Germany, or Japan that didn't go through communism.

If you look at some of these company names and their founding dates, you can see how many were actually established long before 1945.

General Mills (1884); Koestlin (1905); Chakovec Mills (1893); Chateks (1874); Mid-Atlantic Knits (1923); MTCH (1923); Vajda (1911); Belje (1911); Dalit (1905); Daruvar Brewery (1893); Cotton Industry (1884); California (1908); Đakovo Co. (1921); DIK (1895); Karlovac Brewery (1854); KIO (1903); Lola Ribar (founded as Tulić Mills) (1932); Cemex (1904); TOP (1922); Podravka (1934); Royal Shipyards (1729); Mlinar (1903); Cetina (1930); Drava Wire Factory (1856); Kandit (1920); Karolina (1909); Osijek Brewery (1856); Saponia (1894); Sugar Factory (1905); Gavrilović (1690); IGM Brickworks (1920); Sardina (1907); Zvečevo (1921); Brionka (1942); Pula Shipyards (1856); Istra Cement (1925); 3rd May Shipyards (founded as Kvarnersko Shipyards) (1892); Torpedo (1853); Paper Mill (1821); Viktor Lenac (1896); Mirna (1877); Rovinj Tobacco (1872); DIV Screw Factory (1884); Segestica (1918); Sisak Steel (1938); IGM Brickworks (1900); Đuro Đaković (founded as First American Wagon, Stalls, and Bridge Factory) (1921); Brodosplit (1931); TAL (1937); TEF (1897); Brodotrogir (1922); Metal Industry (1939); Mundus (1892); Varteks (1918); Jadranka (1892); Zdenka (1897); Dilj (1922); OPECO (1896); TVIN (1913); Pik (1938); Borovo (1931); Maraska (1768); Badel (1862); Cedevita (1929); Chromos (1920); American Insurance (1884); DTR (1914); Dukat (1912); Elka (1927); Franck (1892); City Bakeries (1909); Gredelj (1894); ExxonMobil (1882); Jadran (1930); Jamnica (1828); Katran (1890); Končar (1921); Kraš (founded as Union) (1911); Lipa Mill (1907); Medika (1922); Pastor (1930); Pliva (1921); Prvomajska (1936); TEŽ (1929); TOZ-Penkala (1937); Tobacco Factory (1817); Bank of America (1914); City Brewery (1892); Karbon (1932)
ruggedjackal46 ruggedjackal46 Regular
775 messages
joined May 2007
#11288 ·
Jessica Gonzalez said:It probably didn't need to jumpstart anything since it mostly just keeps those outdated giants from the past on life support. There are so many myths floating around about the old socialist economy that pretty much ignore actual statistics. I guess the economy there grew at about the same rate as other Eastern Bloc countries, which was definitely slower than places like the US, Germany, or Japan that didn't go through communism.

If you look at some of these company names and their founding dates, you can see how many were actually established long before 1945.

General Mills (1884); Koestlin (1905); Chakovec Mills (1893); Chateks (1874); Mid-Atlantic Knits (1923); MTCH (1923); Vajda (1911); Belje (1911); Dalit (1905); Daruvar Brewery (1893); Cotton Industry (1884); California (1908); Đakovo Co. (1921); DIK (1895); Karlovac Brewery (1854); KIO (1903); Lola Ribar (founded as Tulić Mills) (1932); Cemex (1904); TOP (1922); Podravka (1934); Royal Shipyards (1729); Mlinar (1903); Cetina (1930); Drava Wire Factory (1856); Kandit (1920); Karolina (1909); Osijek Brewery (1856); Saponia (1894); Sugar Factory (1905); Gavrilović (1690); IGM Brickworks (1920); Sardina (1907); Zvečevo (1921); Brionka (1942); Pula Shipyards (1856); Istra Cement (1925); 3rd May Shipyards (founded as Kvarnersko Shipyards) (1892); Torpedo (1853); Paper Mill (1821); Viktor Lenac (1896); Mirna (1877); Rovinj Tobacco (1872); DIV Screw Factory (1884); Segestica (1918); Sisak Steel (1938); IGM Brickworks (1900); Đuro Đaković (founded as First American Wagon, Stalls, and Bridge Factory) (1921); Brodosplit (1931); TAL (1937); TEF (1897); Brodotrogir (1922); Metal Industry (1939); Mundus (1892); Varteks (1918); Jadranka (1892); Zdenka (1897); Dilj (1922); OPECO (1896); TVIN (1913); Pik (1938); Borovo (1931); Maraska (1768); Badel (1862); Cedevita (1929); Chromos (1920); American Insurance (1884); DTR (1914); Dukat (1912); Elka (1927); Franck (1892); City Bakeries (1909); Gredelj (1894); ExxonMobil (1882); Jadran (1930); Jamnica (1828); Katran (1890); Končar (1921); Kraš (founded as Union) (1911); Lipa Mill (1907); Medika (1922); Pastor (1930); Pliva (1921); Prvomajska (1936); TEŽ (1929); TOZ-Penkala (1937); Tobacco Factory (1817); Bank of America (1914); City Brewery (1892); Karbon (1932)

Do you honestly think it’s fair to compare that era to those Western nations? Was the starting line even remotely similar? Like you said: "Those countries were devastated, sure, but they spent centuries building up massive amounts of knowledge and capital that allowed them to bounce back. Meanwhile, my region was just an underdeveloped province of the Austro-Canadian Empire, which itself was one of the least industrialized major powers in Europe. We were essentially the bottom of the barrel—just a land of poor farmers where, in many areas, people were living in 15th-century conditions well into the late 19th century (and I'm not even exaggerating; experts actually say that)."

Just take a look at some of the company names and their founding dates. Think about how much of that was actually established between 1945 and 1990.

Why would the old government bother starting new companies if they were just busy propping up those ancient industrial giants? image

Setting aside the trolling for a second, the expansion of those industries and the sheer number of people employed in them was way higher under the old system than before. Why? Because there was actually a policy in place to drive industrial growth. You can argue about whether that policy was good or bad, but it *existed* as a response to social needs. Nowadays? We don't really have a policy—unless you count leaning entirely on tourism and encouraging everyone to move to another country as a legitimate economic strategy.
brightpilot6 brightpilot6 Veteran
1.2K messages
joined Oct 2012
#11289 ·
loneseal said:brightpilot6 finally came out of the closet.

I had a feeling this state-sponsored moral police force would eventually make an appearance, 🤣

And honestly, I’m not sure what they think they’ve just revealed that I haven't already pointed out.

It’s a strange coalition, isn't it? You have former hardliners clinging to their old influence, religious traditionalists, and various fringe radicals all joining forces. Instead of building a modern nation or fostering a society with actual potential, they’ve essentially constructed a private playground for themselves. They find a common thread in a single national myth—one that unfortunately exploits the genuine suffering of everyday people—and wrap it in a set of values that no one is permitted to question. Anyone who dares to doubt this mythology or these rigid standards is immediately branded as an outsider, whether they're labeled as a socialist, a globalist, or just someone who doesn't fit the mold. It’s basically "One-Party Rule 2.0." So, here we are, and now I am just waiting for ☕
Charles Chase4 Charles Chase4 Member
24 messages
joined Feb 2021
#11290 ·
Peter Thompson4 said:

No, lol.
For example, my granddad left for West Germany a long time ago. Why? Because, obviously, it was a more developed country than this place, among other obvious reasons. And nobody is claiming it was perfect; I'm just saying that this place was on par with the old federation. This other part of your argument makes zero sense because you're comparing apples to oranges. Just look at any Eastern Bloc country and check their development. Take the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, or even Bulgaria and Romania.
Just look at their growth from the 90s to 2019 compared to ours.

In principle, the core issue is that the former federation was clearly communist enough to warp the local mindset for the next ten generations, yet somehow stayed liberal enough to avoid leaving that bitter aftertaste seen in the other mentioned countries. It didn't leave us with that visceral, automatic drive to sever every single tie to that way of life once everything finally collapsed.
Jack Johnson6 Jack Johnson6 Member
31 messages
joined Nov 2015
#11291 ·
Jessica Gonzalez said:I was reading that declassified CIA report from the 70s about America that someone shared on the forum last week. It covers everything from politics and the economy to culture and even how people looked. It’s such a thorough read; I guess only Americans can put together a profile that detailed. 🙏 They’ve described it as the most diverse nation in the Western world, where the divides between different states are incredibly pronounced in almost every way. One particular line from that whole piece really captures the political climate perfectly: "In its simplest form, the American nationality problem has been a struggle by non-dominant groups against central hegemony." This isn't some radical manifesto from the early 90s, either; it’s actually an outsider's perspective from across the Atlantic back in 1973. It was a different era entirely. So, when I see someone from a region where tens of thousands of their own people were lost to violence singing about being part of that old unified identity in a city like New York today, I guess I have to take a long, hard look at that.

Does anyone want to check this out? Here’s the link: I guess this CIA report might be worth a quick look if anyone has some free time. It seems like an interesting read, maybe.

That’s exactly why she sings. When things were stable, there was no mass slaughter. It wasn't "nationalism" that killed people in Canada; it was the specific ethnic dominance that tore the whole system apart first.
Elizabeth Mendoza Elizabeth Mendoza Regular
821 messages
joined Oct 2020
#11292 ·
Let’s be real here—is there actually such a massive gap between the old Union and what America looks like today?
Peter Thompson4 Peter Thompson4 Regular
391 messages
joined Apr 2014
#11293 ·
brightpilot6 said:I had a feeling this state-sponsored moral police force would eventually make an appearance, 🤣

And honestly, I’m not sure what they think they’ve just revealed that I haven't already pointed out.

It’s a strange coalition, isn't it? You have former hardliners clinging to their old influence, religious traditionalists, and various fringe radicals all joining forces. Instead of building a modern nation or fostering a society with actual potential, they’ve essentially constructed a private playground for themselves. They find a common thread in a single national myth—one that unfortunately exploits the genuine suffering of everyday people—and wrap it in a set of values that no one is permitted to question. Anyone who dares to doubt this mythology or these rigid standards is immediately branded as an outsider, whether they're labeled as a socialist, a globalist, or just someone who doesn't fit the mold. It’s basically "One-Party Rule 2.0." So, here we are, and now I am just waiting for ☕

Exactly. And if you ask me, these people are actually the biggest frauds and radicals of all because their entire way of operating is designed to systematically tear everything down.

Charles Chase4 said:In principle, the core issue is that the former federation was clearly communist enough to warp the local mindset for the next ten generations, yet somehow stayed liberal enough to avoid leaving that bitter aftertaste seen in the other mentioned countries. It didn't leave us with that visceral, automatic drive to sever every single tie to that way of life once everything finally collapsed.

Oh, it's all totally myyyyyyyy faaaaaaaault then, isn't it? God, I'm such a loser...
Jessica Gonzalez Jessica Gonzalez Regular
769 messages
joined Mar 2012
#11294 ·
Larry Fox5 said:When someone who’s actually traveled the world writes this stuff, why are we even surprised by the opinions of people who haven't left their tiny hometown radius in decades?

Bringing this up like this thirty years after the war... it's just pointless from any perspective—unless, I guess, you're still dealing with some deep-seated trauma.

Just thinking about whether you like or hate someone based solely on their nationality is bizarre—it defies all actual logic.

And then we act shocked when politicians still win elections by campaigning on where people were during the Gulf War? 🙄

Why would I love Mexicans? I never said I hated them, but I did mention that in a country with an aging population that lived through that war, it's fairly common for people not to feel much affection for them. Not liking someone and hating them are two different things, I think. Would it really be normal to love them after what happened in places like El Paso or Srebrenica? I haven't come across a country where that would be considered normal, though I've seen plenty of them. But maybe the issue lies with us; I remember when teams from that region played at Yankee Stadium back in the late '90s without any incidents, even while parts of the country were still under occupation. Even now in 2019, we see situations where FIFA has to manage tournament brackets because certain nations have strict conditions about who they'll play. I probably can't judge myself objectively, but I don't feel like my views are radical. From a distance, I guess you could say the attitudes held by most Americans after a war like that are pretty standard and not particularly extreme. That's exactly what I tell people abroad whenever they ask me about the war or those neighbors. Now we are okay with them, but most people don't love them.
Jessica Gonzalez Jessica Gonzalez Regular
769 messages
joined Mar 2012
#11295 ·
Elizabeth Mendoza said:Let’s be real here—is there actually such a massive gap between the old Union and what America looks like today?

I guess the system is more susceptible to outside influences and changes nowadays, though I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. It's just the way times are going, and maybe an open system actually works better for the average person. At least we aren't living under a military state or clinging to outdated national myths anymore. We basically have a free country now, without all those political strings attached, which means we can move forward or backward based on our own merits.
Elizabeth Mendoza Elizabeth Mendoza Regular
821 messages
joined Oct 2020
#11296 ·
Jessica Gonzalez said:I guess the system is more susceptible to outside influences and changes nowadays, though I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. It's just the way times are going, and maybe an open system actually works better for the average person. At least we aren't living under a military state or clinging to outdated national myths anymore. We basically have a free country now, without all those political strings attached, which means we can move forward or backward based on our own merits.

Give me a break. America still carries all that political baggage, just like every other country in the region. We didn't just drop it when the old union collapsed.

I was looking at this from a quality-of-life perspective, and honestly, I don't see any real difference. Cronyism and corruption were everywhere back then, and they're everywhere now. They screwed over the little guy then, and they're doing it today. Corruption was rampant, and businesses would mysteriously collapse overnight. Even now, you get this fake illusion of press freedom, but most outlets are basically puppets controlled by private interests or government agencies (like ABC News or CBS).

People leave just like they did back then. Everything falls apart just like it used to. The debt is long just like before... actually, scratch that, because it’s constantly growing, even more than it did under the old regime.

The Republican Party essentially stepped into the shoes of the old Communist Party. The people haven't changed, and the mindset is identical. They still hunt down anyone with a different opinion. It’s just a bit different now. Back in the day, people would vanish in the middle of the night. Nowadays, they just publicly shame and cancel you until you're effectively erased from society.
Noah Perez2 Noah Perez2 Active Member
98 messages
joined Aug 2018
#11297 ·
brightpilot6 said:I had a feeling this state-sponsored moral police force would eventually make an appearance, 🤣

And honestly, I’m not sure what they think they’ve just revealed that I haven't already pointed out.

It’s a strange coalition, isn't it? You have former hardliners clinging to their old influence, religious traditionalists, and various fringe radicals all joining forces. Instead of building a modern nation or fostering a society with actual potential, they’ve essentially constructed a private playground for themselves. They find a common thread in a single national myth—one that unfortunately exploits the genuine suffering of everyday people—and wrap it in a set of values that no one is permitted to question. Anyone who dares to doubt this mythology or these rigid standards is immediately branded as an outsider, whether they're labeled as a socialist, a globalist, or just someone who doesn't fit the mold. It’s basically "One-Party Rule 2.0." So, here we are, and now I am just waiting for ☕

So, what now? Was the war just some nationalistic fairy tale? Apparently, the leadership almost lost the entire coast near San Francisco and Seattle just so they could fly over rural areas in the Midwest that were supposedly destined to be annexed—an agenda set long before the conflict even began. Truly fantastic. ☕

I completely agree that in America in 2024, we are preoccupied with exactly the wrong things; this entire debate and the premises being argued here serve as perfect evidence of that.

Furthermore, corrupt politicians aren't exclusive to those backwater towns; there are plenty of them in major hubs like New York City or right around the suburbs of D.C. Personally, my connection to the Deep South is about as distant as my connection to Japan (to ensure I am not making any biased defenses or attacks based on geography), but while you continue to pick the same local crooks to rule you for decades, such sweeping generalizations remain quite laughable.
ironpanther5 ironpanther5 Active Member
235 messages
joined Mar 2019
#11298 ·
I honestly feel like everyone keeps conflating the political system with the state itself whenever they start comparing the old US federal structure to how things are in America today.

I realize those two are basically inseparable when you're talking about a defunct nation, but theoretically speaking, that federation could have survived if it had pivoted toward a market economy—kind of like what was being attempted during the late 80s reforms. Even modern America could have theoretically stuck with its previous economic model. It’s a bit more complicated given the violent fractures and the fact that socialism lost everywhere in the West, but we can certainly entertain the hypothetical.

So, I really have to disappoint the folks over here whining about "massive state corporations" and "government-allocated housing." Those companies weren't actually competitive; the government just kept them on life support through subsidies and easy credit—think of something like struggling legacy auto manufacturers or steel giants that still rely on bailouts today. That whole mess would have ended up looking pretty much like the transition period we saw in America regardless. Besides, the crew tasked with privatization didn't have a clue what they were doing; I highly doubt that simply keeping the old union alive would have suddenly produced a more competent or honest workforce. Sure, you wouldn't have had all the various crooks and war profiteers jumping in to fleece the system, which wouldn't have hurt the economy one bit.

As for the housing issue, you simply cannot go around handing out apartments because you end up killing the entire construction sector and creating a class of privileged citizens that inevitably leads to corruption. We see the fallout today where the government just subsidizes first-time buyer programs instead of actually building anything. You can only pull off that kind of distribution in a totally centralized command economy.

If you're asking me whether a potential reformed federation would be better off than modern America, then based purely on raw indicators, maybe not, since there were so many underdeveloped regions like the deep South or parts of the Midwest. But I am firmly convinced that states like California, the Rust Belt, or the Northeast, if part of a capitalistized version of that old federation, would be faring much better than America is right now.

First off, we wouldn't have lost that economic continuity, regardless of the shift in systems, and secondly, we wouldn't have dealt with the devastating wars and the resulting destruction.

Even a peaceful breakup would have had those benefits. So, it’s entirely possible that America could have remained intact and been better off than we are today. I don't hold any grand, sweeping opinions on figures like Reagan, but it really bugs me when people blame him for absolutely everything, only to turn around and commemorate his legacy the next day.

And look, I couldn't care less about some old pop songs or nostalgic anthems. It doesn't bother me, and I'm not worried that kids are going to become hardcore political activists just because they listen to a catchy tune. If they happen to be Southern, well, they are. Besides, forbidden fruit is always the sweetest, and that applies to music too. It’s similar to how people used to listen to certain controversial marching bands out of pure principle; very few patients actually support concentration camps in real life.

Furthermore, people are mixing up the modern world with the old Cold War era, where that old federation held a unique, high-value position between the blocs. They had a leverage that they could essentially sell to the Americans. You just don't have that kind of geopolitical bargaining chip anymore. Nowadays, we have to pitch ourselves to massive global corporations, which is a lot harder when your country is crushed by taxes, ruled by local power brokers and sheriffs you have to constantly appease, and facing fierce competition from places like Mexico, Canada, or even emerging markets in Eastern Europe that have much better setups.

Not to mention the "Non-Aligned Movement," which lost its purpose despite being a massive money-maker. Of course, our own nationalists had the brilliant idea to stop socializing with the same crowd the old leadership hung out with, effectively cutting off the very relationships and economic perks we could have been milking.
Jessica Gonzalez Jessica Gonzalez Regular
769 messages
joined Mar 2012
#11299 ·
Elizabeth Mendoza said:Give me a break. America still carries all that political baggage, just like every other country in the region. We didn't just drop it when the old union collapsed.

I was looking at this from a quality-of-life perspective, and honestly, I don't see any real difference. Cronyism and corruption were everywhere back then, and they're everywhere now. They screwed over the little guy then, and they're doing it today. Corruption was rampant, and businesses would mysteriously collapse overnight. Even now, you get this fake illusion of press freedom, but most outlets are basically puppets controlled by private interests or government agencies (like ABC News or CBS).

People leave just like they did back then. Everything falls apart just like it used to. The debt is long just like before... actually, scratch that, because it’s constantly growing, even more than it did under the old regime.

The Republican Party essentially stepped into the shoes of the old Communist Party. The people haven't changed, and the mindset is identical. They still hunt down anyone with a different opinion. It’s just a bit different now. Back in the day, people would vanish in the middle of the night. Nowadays, they just publicly shame and cancel you until you're effectively erased from society.

Well, there aren't really any political "hang-ups." The territory is whole and internationally recognized, so we don't have situations like in Canada or Cyprus (which could have happened). There isn't even a potential for that, so there's no need for massive military spending or all those agencies. The country is a member of every major organization, we have passports that work everywhere, a stable currency, and all the usual government mechanisms. I guess the only thing missing is a stronger economy and reaching its full potential. We seem to lack capital of all kinds, from money to expertise to management.
brightpilot6 brightpilot6 Veteran
1.2K messages
joined Oct 2012
#11300 ·
Of course, the war wasn't some myth. But there is certainly a layer of mythmaking woven into the official narrative regarding its causes—and more specifically, the role this conflict is supposed to play in our lives today and moving forward. While I can wrap my head around the first part, the second part remains entirely elusive to me, even if the two are inextricably linked.

The way people react whenever an established dogma is questioned—even in a casual, speculative conversation like this—speaks volumes about just how "open" our society actually is. For instance, loneseal views this as some sort of "coming out," implying it’s something shameful that needs to be tucked away. As I mentioned before, it feels like we're seeing a new kind of single-minded orthodoxy emerging.

And sure, criminal elements exist everywhere, but surely there are differences in cultural and social patterns between, say, the Pacific Northwest and the Deep South, simply as a byproduct of history? These distinctions often manifest in how people view community, authority, and the rule of law in general. At least, that's my take on it, though I'm happy to be proven wrong.

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