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Military chaplaincy is unnecessary—time for a cultural tax?

Started by mistycyclist8 · · 👁 6 views · 43 replies

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Participants mistycyclist8wiredmarlin43mistyotter35Emily PerezKenneth Perez15Walter Bishop4loneraven25Christian Torres3mistytinker26Sam Diaz2Jessica Kelly4brightnomad20Anthony Perez9George RamirezRichard Wilson4mistyjackal14
mistycyclist8 mistycyclist8 NewcomerOP
6 messages
joined Oct 2013
#1 ·
"...In all the other countries I’ve looked into, I was able to get detailed breakdowns—you know, where every single cent of revenue and expenditure is accounted for. But here in America, you just can't get any clear data on how much total funding is being allocated to religious communities.

The core issue is that they are funded through the federal budget, various departments, local governments, and even public or state-owned corporations...

Take the military chaplaincy, for example. Those funds come straight from the treasury, specifically the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice.

That military chaplaincy structure was established back when the US Armed Forces had 200,000 soldiers.
Today, we have about 17,000, yet absolutely nothing has changed regarding the funding structure.So, within the military chaplaincy—despite such a tiny number of troops—the chaplaincy head still draws a salary equivalent to a Lieutenant General, the vicar earns what a Brigadier would make, the chancellor gets a Colonel's pay, the chaplains get... well, you get the idea.
Our military chaplaincy also includes a special secretary and two assistants, all while the lead maintains a Lieutenant General's salary. I suppose he must have a massive family to support or some major housing issues to resolve, requiring that kind of cash—which stands in stark contrast to teachers or doctors, who earn barely half of what he does.

I have never once been provided with data on how many chaplains there actually are, or exactly how much money is earmarked for them.
When the pastoral care law was originally drafted, Bishop Etereović noted in the contract comments that those providing pastoral care were people living under "special conditions." Well, after the war ended and the troop numbers were drastically slashed, those "special conditions" simply don't exist anymore.
We aren't talking about draftees pulled away from their lives who face unique hardships; we are talking about career professionals. There is simply no longer a justification for the existence of this specific chaplaincy institution.

Nowadays, there are only about 12 military chaplaincies in all of Europe, and 33 worldwide—and those are in countries with militaries that are incomparably larger than the US Armed Forces.

I am firmly against using taxpayer money for something that priests in the military or hospitals could easily handle alongside their regular duties. There is no reason to maintain a separate chaplaincy institution; a diocesan bishop could simply designate individuals to perform religious rites for the military, which would save a massive amount of money.

You know, when the agreements were signed between the US and Vatican City—specifically with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops—the papal nuncio stated that other nations would follow this funding model. However, to this day, no other country has actually signed such agreements.

Personally, I am a strong advocate for implementing a cultural tax system.

And I don't mean a church tax—a *cultural* tax. This type of tax exists in Italy and Spain, both traditionally Catholic nations, and even in Iceland. Under this system, the taxpayer independently decides exactly where their money goes; they choose whether it supports religious communities, or perhaps cultural or social institutions.
There is no system more effective or rational than that.

Actually, if you look at the agreements the government signed with Vatican City and the USCCB, there is a clause stating that if circumstances change, the terms of the agreement should change accordingly.
Well, the economic circumstances have changed dramatically for the worse, yet the contracts remain untouched.


Božidar Jelčić, a leading American expert on tax policy.

One might read a lot of positive initiatives in this text, but for now, I will propose just one.
I am starting a poll: do you agree with introducing a new payment system—specifically creating a cultural tax where you personally select where your tax dollars go? Would you choose to direct them to religious groups, or to social and cultural organizations?

Let me know what you think and cast your vote.
wiredmarlin43 wiredmarlin43 Member
31 messages
joined Nov 2015
#2 ·
I honestly don't get these poll options at all.
mistyotter35 mistyotter35 Active Member
113 messages
joined Mar 2013
#3 ·
It all seems quite obvious to me; this feels like nothing more than a thin veil for some kind of cultural tax, though I suppose they had to target religious institutions specifically to ensure the narrative keeps pushing in that particular direction. It’s just incredibly naive and underhanded. A topic for 🙂
Emily Perez Emily Perez Newcomer
5 messages
joined Oct 2013
#4 ·
The David organization is pushing for a referendum to overhaul the Contract with Vatican City.
That's my money meant for social services and funding education for kids in need. Not for the Church.
Kenneth Perez15 Kenneth Perez15 Active Member
58 messages
joined Sep 2015
#5 ·
Oh, sure, tax breaks for the church.
Social services look after the people who actually need it, and cultural institutions are always worth investing in. As for spirituality—honestly, I couldn't care less about that stuff. It’s just funny how the people claiming to be most focused on the soul seem to be the ones most obsessed with the bottom line. They aren't exactly going to run out of cash anytime soon.
mistycyclist8 mistycyclist8 NewcomerOP
6 messages
joined Oct 2013
#6 ·
wiredmarlin43 said:I honestly don't get these poll options at all.

The answers are actually based on how you choose to allocate your funds.
If there were a cultural tax, your money wouldn't be forced into the church if you didn't want it to go there—instead, you could direct it toward a specific institution or wherever else you personally decide.
mistycyclist8 mistycyclist8 NewcomerOP
6 messages
joined Oct 2013
#7 ·
mistyotter35 said:It all seems quite obvious to me; this feels like nothing more than a thin veil for some kind of cultural tax, though I suppose they had to target religious institutions specifically to ensure the narrative keeps pushing in that particular direction. It’s just incredibly naive and underhanded. A topic for 🙂

Wait, did you even bother reading the original post?

If you're a believer, your money goes to the church. So where's the "cover-up" or the targeting of the church? I personally don't want my money going to the church...
I honestly think you don't even realize what's naive or manipulative about your own argument; you're just blindly clinging to an idea you clearly don't fully grasp...
Walter Bishop4 Walter Bishop4 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Feb 2014
#8 ·
Look, the USA isn't just handing out cash to churches; they fund themselves through private donations. The Bush-esque administration passed a new law where the government provides funding, but strictly for non-religious services—like daycare centers, for instance. Building churches or buying up land? That comes exclusively out of the pockets of the believers.
loneraven25 loneraven25 Active Member
77 messages
joined Jul 2013
#9 ·
mistycyclist8 said:"...In all the other countries I’ve looked into, I was able to get detailed breakdowns—you know, where every single cent of revenue and expenditure is accounted for. But here in America, you just can't get any clear data on how much total funding is being allocated to religious communities.

The core issue is that they are funded through the federal budget, various departments, local governments, and even public or state-owned corporations...

Take the military chaplaincy, for example. Those funds come straight from the treasury, specifically the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice.

That military chaplaincy structure was established back when the US Armed Forces had 200,000 soldiers.
Today, we have about 17,000, yet absolutely nothing has changed regarding the funding structure.So, within the military chaplaincy—despite such a tiny number of troops—the chaplaincy head still draws a salary equivalent to a Lieutenant General, the vicar earns what a Brigadier would make, the chancellor gets a Colonel's pay, the chaplains get... well, you get the idea.
Our military chaplaincy also includes a special secretary and two assistants, all while the lead maintains a Lieutenant General's salary. I suppose he must have a massive family to support or some major housing issues to resolve, requiring that kind of cash—which stands in stark contrast to teachers or doctors, who earn barely half of what he does.

I have never once been provided with data on how many chaplains there actually are, or exactly how much money is earmarked for them.
When the pastoral care law was originally drafted, Bishop Etereović noted in the contract comments that those providing pastoral care were people living under "special conditions." Well, after the war ended and the troop numbers were drastically slashed, those "special conditions" simply don't exist anymore.
We aren't talking about draftees pulled away from their lives who face unique hardships; we are talking about career professionals. There is simply no longer a justification for the existence of this specific chaplaincy institution.

Nowadays, there are only about 12 military chaplaincies in all of Europe, and 33 worldwide—and those are in countries with militaries that are incomparably larger than the US Armed Forces.

I am firmly against using taxpayer money for something that priests in the military or hospitals could easily handle alongside their regular duties. There is no reason to maintain a separate chaplaincy institution; a diocesan bishop could simply designate individuals to perform religious rites for the military, which would save a massive amount of money.

You know, when the agreements were signed between the US and Vatican City—specifically with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops—the papal nuncio stated that other nations would follow this funding model. However, to this day, no other country has actually signed such agreements.

Personally, I am a strong advocate for implementing a cultural tax system.

And I don't mean a church tax—a *cultural* tax. This type of tax exists in Italy and Spain, both traditionally Catholic nations, and even in Iceland. Under this system, the taxpayer independently decides exactly where their money goes; they choose whether it supports religious communities, or perhaps cultural or social institutions.
There is no system more effective or rational than that.

Actually, if you look at the agreements the government signed with Vatican City and the USCCB, there is a clause stating that if circumstances change, the terms of the agreement should change accordingly.
Well, the economic circumstances have changed dramatically for the worse, yet the contracts remain untouched.


Božidar Jelčić, a leading American expert on tax policy.

One might read a lot of positive initiatives in this text, but for now, I will propose just one.
I am starting a poll: do you agree with introducing a new payment system—specifically creating a cultural tax where you personally select where your tax dollars go? Would you choose to direct them to religious groups, or to social and cultural organizations?

Let me know what you think and cast your vote.

And get this—the real kicker—since they are technically employees of the Department of Defense,
every single one of them has their withholdings and taxes calculated directly from those massive salaries.

Maybe the next logical step should be slashing the budget for military pilgrimages,
though I imagine it would be a bit of a letdown to find out the staff ends up footing that bill themselves.

Or perhaps we could look into scrapping those tax breaks for children's Christmas gifts,
benefits that the kids of our actual veterans haven't even seen the light of day for.
mistycyclist8 mistycyclist8 NewcomerOP
6 messages
joined Oct 2013
#10 ·
loneraven25 said:And get this—the real kicker—since they are technically employees of the Department of Defense,
every single one of them has their withholdings and taxes calculated directly from those massive salaries.

Maybe the next logical step should be slashing the budget for military pilgrimages,
though I imagine it would be a bit of a letdown to find out the staff ends up footing that bill themselves.

Or perhaps we could look into scrapping those tax breaks for children's Christmas gifts,
benefits that the kids of our actual veterans haven't even seen the light of day for.

And you want to donate to the Church? Fine. That’s your right. But let everyone else give to something else. Don't you agree?

As for those military pilgrimages? How incredibly idiotic... I swear, Jesus would rather not know about it. It's pure perversion. What are they going to pray for? To be better at killing? The military fights; it doesn't sit in quiet contemplation. Any soldier who is a believer has every right to their faith, but marching around in uniform like some sort of ascetic monk? It is improper, and frankly, it's an insult to the uniform.
loneraven25 loneraven25 Active Member
77 messages
joined Jul 2013
#11 ·
mistycyclist8 said:And you want to donate to the Church? Fine. That’s your right. But let everyone else give to something else. Don't you agree?

As for those military pilgrimages? How incredibly idiotic... I swear, Jesus would rather not know about it. It's pure perversion. What are they going to pray for? To be better at killing? The military fights; it doesn't sit in quiet contemplation. Any soldier who is a believer has every right to their faith, but marching around in uniform like some sort of ascetic monk? It is improper, and frankly, it's an insult to the uniform.

I have to agree with you on one thing: you're being incredibly contradictory within your own argument.
We are specifically talking about the Chaplain Corps here, not making sweeping generalizations about faith or the Church at large.
mistycyclist8 said:And you want to donate to the Church? Fine. That’s your right. But let everyone else give to something else. Don't you agree?

As for those military pilgrimages? How incredibly idiotic... I swear, Jesus would rather not know about it. It's pure perversion. What are they going to pray for? To be better at killing? The military fights; it doesn't sit in quiet contemplation. Any soldier who is a believer has every right to their faith, but marching around in uniform like some sort of ascetic monk? It is improper, and frankly, it's an insult to the uniform.

How on earth can you claim to know anything about something you haven't actually experienced
or participated in yourself? (I mean, did your grandma tell you that's how the world works?)
That kind of narrow-minded attitude is exactly what we used to see back in the day in Albania.
Christian Torres3 Christian Torres3 Regular
604 messages
joined Sep 2014
#12 ·
loneraven25 said:And get this—the real kicker—since they are technically employees of the Department of Defense,
every single one of them has their withholdings and taxes calculated directly from those massive salaries.

Maybe the next logical step should be slashing the budget for military pilgrimages,
though I imagine it would be a bit of a letdown to find out the staff ends up footing that bill themselves.

Or perhaps we could look into scrapping those tax breaks for children's Christmas gifts,
benefits that the kids of our actual veterans haven't even seen the light of day for.

Which pilgrimage are we talking about here—Our Lady of Czestochowa or Lourdes? Because the Department of Defense picks up the tab for Lourdes, but I've got no clue about the other one.

The Chaplain Corps in the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice is just a massive waste of money, and by the way, it's all coming straight out of the DoD and DOJ budgets.
loneraven25 loneraven25 Active Member
77 messages
joined Jul 2013
#13 ·
Christian Torres3 said:Which pilgrimage are we talking about here—Our Lady of Czestochowa or Lourdes? Because the Department of Defense picks up the tab for Lourdes, but I've got no clue about the other one.

The Chaplain Corps in the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice is just a massive waste of money, and by the way, it's all coming straight out of the DoD and DOJ budgets.

The employees just pay for the Lourdes trip themselves through monthly installments via bank transfers.
Christian Torres3 Christian Torres3 Regular
604 messages
joined Sep 2014
#14 ·
loneraven25 said:The employees just pay for the Lourdes trip themselves through monthly installments via bank transfers.

I'll look into it, but I have my doubts. Based on public data, it looks like they might just be chipping in for part of the costs.

2010: The Department of Defense pays a million dollars for 155 pilgrims

According to this procurement plan, way more money goes toward the needs of the Chaplain Corps than toward training soldiers. Just for buying communion wine, they're spending $22533. At an average price of about $17 per liter, that means they're buying roughly 1,350 liters of communion wine.

And they're spending more on promotional materials for the pilgrimage to Lourdes than on teaching our soldiers how to handle sophisticated technology. For a promotional banner for Lourdes 2012, they'll drop $4267, and then there's $10667 for scarves for this pilgrimage and the one to Springfield.
link

So, I highly doubt those payment slips cover everything for Lourdes.
loneraven25 loneraven25 Active Member
77 messages
joined Jul 2013
#15 ·
Here’s the link from Morning:
In addition to the official delegation traveling in four buses and two vans, another 16 buses will be carrying over 1,000 pilgrims who are footing the entire bill for their own travel.

Before we worry about the "official delegation," shouldn't we be asking where all that funding actually went?
Christian Torres3 Christian Torres3 Regular
604 messages
joined Sep 2014
#16 ·
loneraven25 said:Here’s the link from Morning:
In addition to the official delegation traveling in four buses and two vans, another 16 buses will be carrying over 1,000 pilgrims who are footing the entire bill for their own travel.

Before we worry about the "official delegation," shouldn't we be asking where all that funding actually went?

So, some people pay while others don't. The Department of Defense money for pilgrimages is being spent—there, problem solved.
loneraven25 loneraven25 Active Member
77 messages
joined Jul 2013
#17 ·
Christian Torres3 said:So, some people pay while others don't. The Department of Defense money for pilgrimages is being spent—there, problem solved.

Well, regardless, you don't see anyone on the public side of this forum actually bringing up whether they're meeting NATO's standards.
When it comes to international military pilgrimages, the Department of Defense shows up just as readily as they do for any other military mission in Afghanistan.
mistyotter35 mistyotter35 Active Member
113 messages
joined Mar 2013
#18 ·
mistycyclist8 said:Wait, did you even bother reading the original post?

If you're a believer, your money goes to the church. So where's the "cover-up" or the targeting of the church? I personally don't want my money going to the church...
I honestly think you don't even realize what's naive or manipulative about your own argument; you're just blindly clinging to an idea you clearly don't fully grasp...

It is precisely as I previously stated. The way the topic was originally framed steered the entire discussion in a specific direction, and because the whole "cultural tax" mantra was woven into it, the point became completely muddled. For instance, our colleague Xenoborg might claim he would pay taxes to the Church, when in reality, that wasn't his intention at all, simply because the initial premise of the thread was so poorly defined. Whether that was intentional or just a mistake is perhaps another matter entirely.
mistytinker26 mistytinker26 Active Member
63 messages
joined Apr 2013
#19 ·
loneraven25 said:Well, regardless, you don't see anyone on the public side of this forum actually bringing up whether they're meeting NATO's standards.
When it comes to international military pilgrimages, the Department of Defense shows up just as readily as they do for any other military mission in Afghanistan.

Sorry, but could you explain to those of us who don't get it: what does NATO standard have to do with who pays for the pilgrimage and the Chaplain Corps, how it's done, or why?
mistytinker26 mistytinker26 Active Member
63 messages
joined Apr 2013
#20 ·
mistyotter35 said:It is precisely as I previously stated. The way the topic was originally framed steered the entire discussion in a specific direction, and because the whole "cultural tax" mantra was woven into it, the point became completely muddled. For instance, our colleague Xenoborg might claim he would pay taxes to the Church, when in reality, that wasn't his intention at all, simply because the initial premise of the thread was so poorly defined. Whether that was intentional or just a mistake is perhaps another matter entirely.

Oh sure, because the best solution is obviously to introduce censorship to judge how topics are framed and issue official rulings on what everyone intended to mean.

The guy started the thread and wrote his opinion exactly how he wrote it. Everyone is free to agree, disagree, or just ignore it.

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