State of the healthcare system in America: Let's discuss why it's failing

Google, I won't quote you since you wrote a novel there,

but you mentioned one thing—something you definitely didn't catch in any of my previous posts—about how nobody's going to spend their own cash on education. I never actually said anyone should...
and besides, regarding the first thing you said—which basically just backed up my take on the healthcare system here in the States—you went off to medical school just so you could prescribe your OWN damn treatments....yippee! 😂

So, isn't that really what we're talking about here?

I didn't go to college just because of that (it might sound that way if you read it literally, but that’s not what I mean) — that’s just a side effect of the whole situation. There are plenty of examples of "bad management" in my own backyard, but I honestly think there are even more instances of successful treatment and recovery, whereas the failure or negligence of a few people doesn't mean we should tear down the entire system. Instead, we need to call out those individuals by their first and last names when they aren't doing their jobs properly, so the system can actually fix itself where it matters...

For instance, if there were public lists of good and bad doctors, and everyone started avoiding the bad ones (since, as a patient, you actually have the right to refuse treatment from a specific doctor), those practitioners would quickly have to rethink their methods because they'd be out of a job if nobody wanted to see them. But, of course, that kind of refusal needs to be backed up by actual reasoning, rather than just following the principle of "I don't like them because they didn't give me exactly what I thought I needed," because that kind of attitude just makes the next person examining you even less interested in looking for anything concrete... Besides, there's also the legal right for a doctor to refuse to treat a patient (except in life-threatening emergencies, obviously), so even the arrogant or aggressive patients really ought to think twice about how they act...

Jacob Fox6 said:Okay, so now I’m thinking Kate Collins67 was actually a guy, just like most of the recent posts unless his wife is typing in the masculine form...🙂

Blah, blah, envelopes... when did you even deal with that? I have never, ever been in a situation like that in my life. Honestly, I wish those little "gifts" didn't play such a huge role with local town halls, or instead of envelopes, people weren't handing out favors from $333, coffee, or boxes of chocolates and stuff like that...

With certain procedures, surgeons will actually tell patients straight up to buy their own supplies if they want higher quality materials than what the hospital provides. I know of a specific case, but that isn't the surgeon just lining their own pockets. As for the ones who actually demand bribes, just report them to the FBI, call a news station so they can run a story and ruin their reputation or at least cast doubt on them... rather than just talking generally and dragging all doctors through the mud. In all my years, I have literally never once been in a position where I had to give anyone anything extra or pay under the table—not me and not anyone close to me. And if what you're claiming is really that common, then I should have run into that opportunity at least once by now, don't you think?!

I didn't have to pay because I managed to navigate things "differently."
The price list in Washington, D.C. is roughly $1,000 for a basic gynecological procedure. They say it's around $500 in Miami. It's much cheaper down there, and word is they are more skilled too.
How can some random news anchor earn a $6667 salary that rivals what doctors make? We are already paying double for media fees anyway (between cable and the TV tax).
Regardless, this isn't really the topic at hand.
It just irritates me that this can happen to a woman or a person who has absolutely no money. What is that supposed to mean? Just drop dead?
And Vixen—this happens constantly, like an addiction.

Raymond Price4 said:So, funny how I'm still breathing then? Both me and my parents had a GP show up at our door every single time we called.

Luckily, most doctors are actual professionals with hearts.
Unlike some people whose logic is about as sound as your average troll in an online parlor (clearly seen in this thread).

And yeah, I agree with the post above—not once have any doctors asked me or my family for money, directly or otherwise, and we’ve certainly never offered it. We got the treatment we needed, plain and simple.

It’s easy to live in a major metropolitan area.
But when you spend some time on the Mediterranean Coast, you realize there aren't many miracles to be found. Along the entire coast, there are no socialized GPs or other specialists, like dentists for instance. You pay dearly for every single test, and they don't even give you a receipt. General practitioners only make house calls when someone is on their deathbed, and even then, maybe not. Especially in small towns.
I can't even remember—and I have both standard and supplemental insurance—ever using my health coverage (aside from this surgery) without having to pay the full amount out of pocket.
Living here feels like being in a foreign country. I've heard that people in Washington, D.C., and residents of larger cities have it much easier: everything is practically on their doorstep (we travel 50-62 miles miles just to get by), they enjoy concerts and exhibitions, and they can head to the plaza for New Year's. Here on the coast, we are stuck in the middle of nowhere, living in isolation. Even Miami, since the current administration took over, has turned into one large, isolated village filled with unemployed people.

Everything operates without any external oversight regarding institutions or doctors. You are entirely dependent on the whims of whoever happens to be providing the service at that moment. Even the local pharmacy in our small town lacks basic necessities: they don't carry antidotes for any kind of poison. They don't even have an antidote for the coumarin used in rat poison, let alone snake antivenom.
Outsiders end up driving to 31 miles just to find something essential when something happens to their children. And since there are several large hotels in town, a place with a permanent population of 3,000 swells to fifteen times that size during the season.

We have no choice here. Everything is centralized in Washington, D.C. Yet we are taxed at the exact same rates for every business. It’s as if we were in the capital. In reality, everything is more expensive for us. We are forced to rely exclusively on private providers because there are no social services to speak of.

ruggedscout91 said:It’s easy to live in a major metropolitan area.
But when you spend some time on the Mediterranean Coast, you realize there aren't many miracles to be found. Along the entire coast, there are no socialized GPs or other specialists, like dentists for instance. You pay dearly for every single test, and they don't even give you a receipt. General practitioners only make house calls when someone is on their deathbed, and even then, maybe not. Especially in small towns.
I can't even remember—and I have both standard and supplemental insurance—ever using my health coverage (aside from this surgery) without having to pay the full amount out of pocket.
Living here feels like being in a foreign country. I've heard that people in Washington, D.C., and residents of larger cities have it much easier: everything is practically on their doorstep (we travel 50-62 miles miles just to get by), they enjoy concerts and exhibitions, and they can head to the plaza for New Year's. Here on the coast, we are stuck in the middle of nowhere, living in isolation. Even Miami, since the current administration took over, has turned into one large, isolated village filled with unemployed people.

Everything operates without any external oversight regarding institutions or doctors. You are entirely dependent on the whims of whoever happens to be providing the service at that moment. Even the local pharmacy in our small town lacks basic necessities: they don't carry antidotes for any kind of poison. They don't even have an antidote for the coumarin used in rat poison, let alone snake antivenom.
Outsiders end up driving to 31 miles just to find something essential when something happens to their children. And since there are several large hotels in town, a place with a permanent population of 3,000 swells to fifteen times that size during the season.

We have no choice here. Everything is centralized in Washington, D.C. Yet we are taxed at the exact same rates for every business. It’s as if we were in the capital. In reality, everything is more expensive for us. We are forced to rely exclusively on private providers because there are no social services to speak of.

Look, there are always exceptions—people who grind through absolutely catastrophic conditions. My cousin is one of them. She’s a GP working out on a remote island near a small town in the West, and she doesn't just sit in an office all day. She spends her shifts trekking through the rural backcountry on house calls, visiting every elderly patient in the area before she can even think about heading home. She lives in Miami, so after she finishes seeing everyone, she’s often pulling into her driveway after 10:00 PM. To make matters worse, she’s a single mom. And don't even get me started on how the local busybodies try to dictate her schedule, her working conditions, and where she’s allowed to practice. The locals actually decided that instead of maintaining the clinic, they should build a music school right above it. They started construction, but then the first heavy rain hit, causing massive flooding that basically trashed the medical facility. As a result, they shoved her into the Chief’s office for six months just to have a place to work. Can you imagine trying to treat someone with a serious injury while sitting in a cramped administrative office? It’s ridiculous.
Every time I think about that crumbling plaster falling off the walls and those rotting window frames, I honestly feel like punching my own dentist. She runs her practice over in this upscale neighborhood, but she’s constantly whining about how much she's lacking—meanwhile, she’s only shown up to visit her own mother twice during her entire three-year, four-month battle with glioblastoma.

I just want to briefly touch upon the call-outs directed at the moderators in this thread, without getting dragged into the actual debate itself. Let’s be clear: moderators are nothing more than regular forum members who have been promoted to sub-forum editors simply because they behave themselves and contribute quality, constructive content. That promotion comes with the sole obligation to volunteer our time to maintain order within the sub-forum, perhaps steer a discussion back on track, and that’s it. Our primary duties involve merging, moving, editing, or deleting posts and threads, and issuing warnings to problematic users according to the site rules. When it comes to replying to threads or PMs, we participate just like any other user—entirely at our own discretion. Furthermore, just like everyone else here, we have a right to privacy; we aren't obligated to disclose our identities or professions to anyone.

Regarding the response from Casey Cook10—who, I should add, is an incredibly high-quality and knowledgeable contributor whose insights have helped many people here—I don't see anything controversial about what was said. I have no desire to open a second front over CCSVI, so I won't be offering my subjective opinion on that. From what I understand, this is an attempt to revive an old theory suggesting that venous insufficiency in the CNS is linked to the onset of MS. However, existing research hasn't yielded much conclusive data, and there are two main reasons for that. First, the studies have been conducted on relatively small sample sizes. Second, it is impossible to determine whether MS is caused by CCSVI or if CCSVI is merely a byproduct of having MS. Now, suddenly, there are these vague demands being leveled at health institutions to conduct specific research here in America... 🤷 But again, that isn't the point of this discussion, and I don't want it to become one.

Lisbeth said:You really think I don't have any? ☕
Look, I don't equate humanity with a specific job title—and frankly, it’s because of people who hold views exactly like yours. You've made it crystal clear, both then and now, that having a "human touch" isn't part of a doctor's job description. You seem pretty damn consistent about that, don't you?
You spend all this time arguing that a doctor's professionalism and their humanity are mutually exclusive—that they just can't go hand in hand—so why on earth are you trying to claim empathy as some sort of exclusive club for your profession and others like it?

What do I do for a living? I sell apples and kale at the farmer's market. 🙂

Honestly, "humanity" is overrated. It's constantly being used as a convenient excuse for all sorts of nonsense.
Take euthanasia, for example. Is it actually humane to end someone's suffering when they specifically ask for it? Or is it more "humane" to let them slowly wither away in unimaginable pain and impossible circumstances?
Because of local moralists and self-proclaimed "humanists," people don't even get to make their own choices anymore...

So, if you're out there selling kale and apples... try practicing some actual humanity next time you head to the market. Don't try to foist rotten fruit and wilted veggies on people. Just throw the bad stuff out—even if it means taking a bit of a hit on your paycheck this month.

Lisbeth said:I don't know what you're like in real life, but here you come off as this aggressive, angry person who sees both the patient and the system as nothing more than an annoying obstacle in their way.
And here I am trying to defend the doctors, while you're actually looking for a fight over that—it’s honestly ridiculous.

Look, if most of you actually sat down in my office in real life, you’d probably walk away feeling pretty satisfied. Why? Because my self-control is through the roof—I don't go around blabbing my unfiltered thoughts to people; I just get my job done.
But just because I perform my duties doesn't mean I'm some saintly humanitarian; it just means I'm a professional. What I really think about patients while I'm on the clock stays between me and my work, but why on earth should I hold back here?

You don't need to be out here defending the doctors or the patients—just defend the integrity of the process itself, and maybe then we'd actually have a functional country.

PatientX511 said:....when I went to see my doctor with my discharge papers, she basically told me I should just keep resting for a bit longer. It’s written right there in bold letters—based on the tests performed—that I need follow-ups, including tumor markers and more monitoring. I had to pay out-of-pocket for some of those tests, but they wouldn't cover the markers. When I asked her again for a referral, her answer was that she simply couldn't give me one. She didn't care if I'd met all the criteria or not, let alone this specific situation.
On the flip side, I have a coworker who manages to get major medical scans through Blue Cross every single week—total hypochondriac case... It’s just not fair. Do doctors have a limited quota of referrals they can issue, or do they just get bigger bonuses for cutting costs?!! How is it that some doctors throw referrals around like candy while others won't even give you what a specialist specifically ordered??

Well, it isn't fair. But unfortunately, as of right now, there are zero consequences for patients who exploit the system like that.
The next time you—or anyone else—find yourself sitting at number 151 on a waiting list, just ask yourself: do you actually *need* that test, or does one of those 150 people ahead of you actually need it? Or is the entire list just a byproduct of unreasonable demands—from both doctors and patients alike—that honestly have nothing to do with actual medicine.

Lisbeth said:You've got a point there.
But don't you ever wonder why people even bother doing this? Is it pure greed? Boredom? Hypochondria? Or maybe—just maybe—it's because they're being scheduled at such ridiculous intervals that they'll be dead and buried before they even get through the door for an exam.

I won't go on listing the thousands of examples out there—there's just one right here on the MS thread, since we're already talking about it—a woman from Miami, I think, who posted about waking up with one side of her body numb, dealing with vertigo and all sorts of symptoms, only to be told she wouldn't see a neurologist for 9 months later?!

If you can't see how this works, no matter how you slice it, there are way more tests needed than the government is actually willing or able to pay for...
If you jump the line today, and then someone else jumps tomorrow for the day after, and so on—if you shove 300 people into the front of the queue—everyone else just gets pushed back another few months on the waiting list.
Cutting in line doesn't shrink the line for the rest of the population; it just benefits the specific person cutting.

A hundred cars in a traffic jam is still a hundred cars in a traffic jam, whether you're the first one or the last one. And if those 100 cars are added within a single month, then inevitably, someone is going to have to wait 30 days for their turn. Of course, nobody wants to be that person, but maybe you have a magic wand I don't know about, or maybe I'm just missing something.

Maybe less criticizing and more offering actual solutions would be better.

Kate Collins67 said:Honestly, "humanity" is overrated. It's constantly being used as a convenient excuse for all sorts of nonsense.
Take euthanasia, for example. Is it actually humane to end someone's suffering when they specifically ask for it? Or is it more "humane" to let them slowly wither away in unimaginable pain and impossible circumstances?
Because of local moralists and self-proclaimed "humanists," people don't even get to make their own choices anymore...

So, if you're out there selling kale and apples... try practicing some actual humanity next time you head to the market. Don't try to foist rotten fruit and wilted veggies on people. Just throw the bad stuff out—even if it means taking a bit of a hit on your paycheck this month.

I know a vendor at the market who actually lives by those principles. If she finds a bruised apple, she simply tosses it in the bin and keeps the good stuff on display. Her business is booming because everyone trusts her; she sells out every single time and makes a great living.
Speaking of being "human." 🙂

Raymond Nguyen5 said:👎

Look, I don't know what your background is or if you've dealt with any major health issues before—which maybe isn't even relevant here—but what really matters is whether someone actually possesses that sense of basic human compassion...

If the system worked the way you’re describing—where you see a specialist who guides you, asks what you need, and stays on top of things, or you go to an association (not the one over in Laginja, but whatever) and get the answers you need without ever having to touch a computer because you're talking to real people face-to-face who are actually paid to do their jobs instead of just volunteering—well, then this country wouldn't be called America, it would be called UTOPIA...

But, there are a few, actually several, BUTS, and that's just not how it works, which is why those of us struggling with all these different illnesses are out here hunting for answers in every corner, when we probably should have just used all that energy to dig a hole for the system and all these "helpful" people to toss us into so they don't have to get their hands dirty helping us...

As for understanding how this forum works, maybe you should open a PDF and explain to everyone that you think you should be allowed to ask questions and expect answers only when you feel like it, while letting just a tiny handful of people actually participate... I honestly thought a forum was meant to be a FORUM, where you have rights, but I guess I have no idea how things work here...😁

Just to be clear, I wasn't looking for advice from some "doc" on the internet, nor should I have needed it; I was just making the point that doctors in real life often act exactly like the "docs" on these boards—arrogant, ego-driven, uninformed, and playing God, with a few exceptions of course...

I honestly don't even know where to start with you, but I'm going to try to tune out your tone for the second time...

1. A forum is a place for discussion, which means it's definitely not a place where you're going to get the hyper-specific medical answers you're insisting on...

2. Even fadedmarlin402 told you the same thing I did, so I'm not going to go back and forth about the moderators again...

3. Just like with any specific condition, patients desperately grab onto any little shred of info they hear from someone who heard it from someone else... Your specialist is informed, trust me, they stay updated on everything, but if they haven't brought it up (and I don't even know if you asked), then it's not important enough to focus on right now, otherwise you'll just end up with false hopes... Seriously, you have no idea how much news gets blown out of proportion just because patients hype it up, even when it has zero actual impact on the disease itself...

4. All I can say is that if I were in your shoes, I definitely wouldn't be taking my anger out on the whole world; I'd just accept life as it is, with all its limitations, and try to live it as best I can instead of lashing out at everyone, and honestly, your attitude lately has been pretty rude, and being sick isn't an excuse because there are plenty of other people in the exact same or even worse situations than yours who still act like normal human beings. It feels like you're just pointing fingers at everyone because you're angry about having MS. I know it's hard, but the way you're acting is literally pushing people away, and instead of getting sympathy, you're just annoying everyone with your behavior. Maybe just think about that for a second...

borna07 said:Raymond Nguyen5, hey, don't get all worked up now...
Just try to see that even though some of our forum mods might be doctors, they aren't necessarily experts on every single breakthrough or new way to diagnose and treat every illness out there, especially when it comes to MS.
They could just as easily be dermatologists or eye specialists who don't deal with MS at all in their daily practice...
Searching for stuff online—you know, using Google to find info—has made things so much easier for everyone, from us patients to actual MDs, letting us catch onto new medical news super fast.
But man, Google is full of absolute garbage. It only takes one quack to post some fake study claiming you can cure cancer with, I don't know, apricot pits or something (just an example here!) and if they format it to look scientific enough, it shoots right to the top of the search results...
Because of that, patients constantly get flooded with info that either has zero basis in medicine or is stuck in some experimental phase that’s already been tossed aside as irrelevant to actual treatment. (And I'm not talking about apricot pits, I mean real clinical trials)...
MS is being researched like crazy all over the world. I bet every single day somewhere on the planet, a new theory pops up about why it happens and how to stop it. But 99.9% of those theories end up getting debunked after more research. For the few that actually work, the studies take forever before they can be used in a hospital, and it takes even longer before those findings become the standard baseline medicine used globally...
Only then would you have a reason to be mad that your doctor doesn't have all the answers right away.
Plus, a doctor's word carries so much weight, even when people treat it like a trend on a forum, so they really have to watch what they say.
I mean, you react totally differently if a random person tells you, "Hey, I heard about this new thing that helps with diagnosis," versus when a doctor says it. No matter what their specialty is, their word carries way more "heft," which is why they're always so incredibly careful with what they put out there...

Totally agree. I'd just add that this goes for pretty much any illness... it's always the same old story where people struggle to stay objective when looking at info coming from different, sometimes sketchy, sources...

Kevin Garcia12 said:I didn't go to college just because of that (it might sound that way if you read it literally, but that’s not what I mean) — that’s just a side effect of the whole situation. There are plenty of examples of "bad management" in my own backyard, but I honestly think there are even more instances of successful treatment and recovery, whereas the failure or negligence of a few people doesn't mean we should tear down the entire system. Instead, we need to call out those individuals by their first and last names when they aren't doing their jobs properly, so the system can actually fix itself where it matters...

For instance, if there were public lists of good and bad doctors, and everyone started avoiding the bad ones (since, as a patient, you actually have the right to refuse treatment from a specific doctor), those practitioners would quickly have to rethink their methods because they'd be out of a job if nobody wanted to see them. But, of course, that kind of refusal needs to be backed up by actual reasoning, rather than just following the principle of "I don't like them because they didn't give me exactly what I thought I needed," because that kind of attitude just makes the next person examining you even less interested in looking for anything concrete... Besides, there's also the legal right for a doctor to refuse to treat a patient (except in life-threatening emergencies, obviously), so even the arrogant or aggressive patients really ought to think twice about how they act...

Man, I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with someone word for word...

But honestly, I feel like even though that principle exists on paper, it doesn't really happen in the real world (though sometimes, sadly, it does), and I truly believe that if it actually worked in practice, things would be totally different for both doctors and patients, and it feels like someone finally hit on a potential solution for the doctor-patient relationship that works for everyone, so patients wouldn't be whining about one specific doctor and making generalizations, and doctors would find it much easier if they could just turn away an annoying patient, which might make that same patient realize they shouldn't be so rude next time, because no doctor has a problem treating someone in a life-threatening crisis, but that arrogant, high-strung, disrespectful type is always going to be a struggle, so yeah, it would be such a positive thing if it actually became reality... 🙂

Kate Collins67 said:Look, if most of you actually sat down in my office in real life, you’d probably walk away feeling pretty satisfied. Why? Because my self-control is through the roof—I don't go around blabbing my unfiltered thoughts to people; I just get my job done.
But just because I perform my duties doesn't mean I'm some saintly humanitarian; it just means I'm a professional. What I really think about patients while I'm on the clock stays between me and my work, but why on earth should I hold back here?

You don't need to be out here defending the doctors or the patients—just defend the integrity of the process itself, and maybe then we'd actually have a functional country.

I'm with you on that one...

ruggedscout91 said:I didn't have to pay because I managed to navigate things "differently."
The price list in Washington, D.C. is roughly $1,000 for a basic gynecological procedure. They say it's around $500 in Miami. It's much cheaper down there, and word is they are more skilled too.
How can some random news anchor earn a $6667 salary that rivals what doctors make? We are already paying double for media fees anyway (between cable and the TV tax).
Regardless, this isn't really the topic at hand.
It just irritates me that this can happen to a woman or a person who has absolutely no money. What is that supposed to mean? Just drop dead?
And Vixen—this happens constantly, like an addiction.

I'm with you on that. But that’s exactly why I hate making broad strokes about everything, because even if a doctor is crooked, his own peers and the medical community are usually the first ones to call him out. Still, we end up circling back to politics and how much the government meddles in healthcare, so even when colleagues try to do the right thing, they often find themselves completely powerless or targeted by political schemes that make it impossible to actually work... I don't know what else to say besides the fact that we live in such a messy, disorganized country...

I really don't want to steer this conversation off course, but I honestly don't see why my answer was considered controversial.
Maybe it’s because I mentioned that I doubt this will totally revolutionize how we treat MS? I feel a bit bad for Raymond Nguyen5
since it seems pretty obvious that standard treatments aren't doing the trick, but hey, this isn't a doctor's office and whatever opinions are shared here
aren't meant to be binding for anyone. I share them—and I think everyone else here does too—with the best intentions, based on what I know from my own professional background.
But, like some of the other folks in this thread have pointed out, you get all kinds of doctors and patients who just won't be happy until they hear exactly what they want to hear.
Plus, that old saying about how "free advice is worth the least" really seems to hold true here.

I’m actually glad they’re closing the maternity ward in Makarska.
Now, gynecologists who used to squeeze in appointments between deliveries and juggle other patients will finally have enough time to perform a decent ultrasound. Maybe then women won't have to rush to the major hospitals in New York just to deal with benign issues that were missed.

Furthermore, the "midwife system" is standard practice all over the world; it’s an entirely different concept from a full-scale maternity ward.
For any mothers who aren't aware, you can always head in earlier to ensure you arrive on time. It is much safer to go to a proper hospital equipped with operating rooms where complications can actually be handled. In these makeshift clinics, anything could happen.
Milinovic: American healthcare = 1 : 1. 😍

Correction on the quote: it should read "handheld midwives."😉

ruggedscout91 said:I’m actually glad they’re closing the maternity ward in Makarska.
Now, gynecologists who used to squeeze in appointments between deliveries and juggle other patients will finally have enough time to perform a decent ultrasound. Maybe then women won't have to rush to the major hospitals in New York just to deal with benign issues that were missed.

Furthermore, the "midwife system" is standard practice all over the world; it’s an entirely different concept from a full-scale maternity ward.
For any mothers who aren't aware, you can always head in earlier to ensure you arrive on time. It is much safer to go to a proper hospital equipped with operating rooms where complications can actually be handled. In these makeshift clinics, anything could happen.
Milinovic: American healthcare = 1 : 1. 😍

I can't speak for Makarska, but the conditions in Sinj were absolutely abysmal. From that perspective, Milinovic might have a point. What really gets under my skin, though, is the fact that he's a liar. He admitted himself that there was a commission report from four years ago stating the working conditions were substandard. Those conditions haven't been good since the 90s—so we're talking much longer than just four years, and I'm sure there are even older reports buried somewhere. He claims he doesn't want to take responsibility if something goes wrong... give me a break.😳 But how did he take responsibility for everything over the last four years then?😳 Instead of closing the ward four years ago when he had the chance, now he's suddenly playing the card about his heritage and how much he cares about his people. 🤮 This liar's sudden concern for tradition is nothing but a convenient excuse to save the government some money.☕
As for the women, you can get from Sinj to the main city center in about 30 minutes via the highway. If things get critical, medevac helicopters are constantly flying in from all over the place. That system has been well-established for a long time, especially for transporting people from the coastal islands.