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Is it legal to add a balcony extension to a building?

Started by wearycyclist57 · · 👁 5 views · 34 replies

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Participants wearycyclist57placidviper12slycyclist342Anthony Stewart5Hannah StewartSteven Young23Steven Palmer12Nancy Howard4Kenneth Cruz67Timothy Nelson5Rachel Jones8Gary Kim3Alexander Myers4
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#1 ·
My wife and I recently picked up a penthouse apartment. The building dates back to the Austro-Canadian period, specifically built in 1909, and it’s located right in Cleveland.

The front of the building has this really ornate facade, so I'm assuming that part is under some kind of federal protection or historical preservation status. However, our place faces the back of the building, which isn't anything special. It doesn't even face a main street, so in my opinion, there's zero historical value there that would require special protection.

So, here's the thing: our living room and bedroom both look out onto an L-shaped alcove at the rear of the building, and that space would be absolutely perfect for a balcony. The catch is that the balcony would have to be attached to the exterior. Having one would be huge for us because we'd finally have a little outdoor spot. We already have two windows—one in the living room and one in the bedroom—that could easily be converted into sliding doors to access the little balcony.

Basically, all the physical requirements are there to tuck a balcony into that L-shaped nook, but for some reason, it just wasn't built into the original structure. That space is just begging for a balcony.

I’m looking for some legal insight here. Would it actually be legal to build this balcony? I assume I'd need to hire an architect to draw up plans to submit for a building permit. I’m thinking it would probably have to be a metal balcony bolted onto the exterior as an add-on. I wouldn't be talking about a traditional concrete slab, but more like a prefabricated iron structure screwed directly into the facade. The exterior walls are massive—nearly a foot thick—so they're plenty strong enough to securely bolt a modular balcony to so it stays totally stable. From a construction standpoint, it should be totally doable.

But what I really want to know is: would I need to get permission from every single neighbor in the building, or is hiring an architect to handle the project enough? How feasible is this from a legal perspective? Would the city even allow this kind of addition on a building like this? And what’s the actual process? Where exactly should I go to get the facts?

Can anyone help me out with some advice?
placidviper12 placidviper12 Member
16 messages
joined Jun 2009
#2 ·
You'll need a building permit, which requires a green light from every single co-owner in the building (notarized, obviously), plus approval from the historical preservation office.
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#3 ·
Wait, everyone? There are only about 11 condo owners in the whole building. Are you telling me I need a thumbs up from every single one of them? If just one person says no, am I totally stuck? Is that actually how it works?
placidviper12 placidviper12 Member
16 messages
joined Jun 2009
#4 ·
One hundred percent—every single co-owner has to sign off on it.
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#5 ·
That’s going to be a massive uphill battle since I don't even know some of the people living on the upper floors, let alone where they are. Getting signatures from all 11 co-owners is going to be nearly impossible—especially since one of those owners is actually the City of Cleveland, which owns a commercial space on the ground floor. Getting everyone on board feels like a long shot.

Anyway, what I really want to know is if there's some kind of tiny, prefabricated iron balcony out there? Like a little platform you can just step onto right outside the door? Just a small extension for my balcony doors so I can actually step outside. Basically, a miniature, pre-fab balcony that wouldn't require a building permit.

What could I possibly install without needing any kind of construction permit? Is there anything allowed that’s super tiny but still lets me step outside? What are the local building codes regarding this stuff? What am I legally allowed to put up without jumping through all those permit hoops?

Does anyone here actually know the building regulations? I'm planning on putting doors in where the windows are, so what could I mount on the outside to create a little landing or whatever you call it? Just a simple, prefab iron structure. And how big would it be allowed to be?

Is there any way to make this work? I just need some kind of exit from the bedroom, even if it's only 30 centimeters deep, just so I can step out and have a smoke once in a while.
placidviper12 placidviper12 Member
16 messages
joined Jun 2009
#6 ·
So, basically, you need the green light from historical preservationists, a building permit, and a unanimous vote from every single co-owner.
slycyclist342 slycyclist342 Member
49 messages
joined Jan 2016
#7 ·
Look at it this way:

If you intend to do this legally, the change must be recorded on the property deed. This means your ownership percentage in the building increases while someone else's decreases—which could lead to complications during future HOA votes regarding building matters.

Therefore, if you are reducing someone else's equity stake, the decent thing would be to get their consent first, wouldn't it?

(I can already hear you arguing that it’s just a single square foot that won't impact anything... but whether it is one square foot or one hundred, the legal procedure remains identical.)
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#8 ·
I stumbled upon something interesting... apparently, they call this a French balcony. I’m just hoping I don't need a building permit from the local city council for something like this:
Anthony Stewart5 Anthony Stewart5 Member
15 messages
joined Mar 2023
#9 ·
wearycyclist57 said:That’s going to be a massive uphill battle since I don't even know some of the people living on the upper floors, let alone where they are. Getting signatures from all 11 co-owners is going to be nearly impossible—especially since one of those owners is actually the City of Cleveland, which owns a commercial space on the ground floor. Getting everyone on board feels like a long shot.

Anyway, what I really want to know is if there's some kind of tiny, prefabricated iron balcony out there? Like a little platform you can just step onto right outside the door? Just a small extension for my balcony doors so I can actually step outside. Basically, a miniature, pre-fab balcony that wouldn't require a building permit.

What could I possibly install without needing any kind of construction permit? Is there anything allowed that’s super tiny but still lets me step outside? What are the local building codes regarding this stuff? What am I legally allowed to put up without jumping through all those permit hoops?

Does anyone here actually know the building regulations? I'm planning on putting doors in where the windows are, so what could I mount on the outside to create a little landing or whatever you call it? Just a simple, prefab iron structure. And how big would it be allowed to be?

Is there any way to make this work? I just need some kind of exit from the bedroom, even if it's only 30 centimeters deep, just so I can step out and have a smoke once in a while.

You really think you’re some kind of visionary, don't you? You go out and purchase an apartment in a century-old building right in the heart of downtown, and suddenly you believe you have the right to start slapping on balconies and redesigning the entire facade. Is it not enough to simply own a piece of history, or do you feel entitled to dismantle its very soul? It seems you have no appreciation for the necessity of hiring conservationists, nor do you grasp the fundamental requirement for building permits and official city approvals. Does one truly believe that personal whims should supersede the structural integrity and historical preservation of our urban landscape?

Perhaps it would be most prudent to consult with the historical preservation officer first; if you do that now, you won't find yourself facing any further complications down the road.

That was precisely why the terms were so favorable. 😉
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#10 ·
Look, I know I technically need a building permit, but honestly, trying to get one feels like an impossible mission. All I really want is a tiny little way to get some fresh air.

It’s an old building right in the middle of downtown, but we're talking about the back side of the structure here. It's not the front facade, so it’s nothing fancy or "landmark" status in any sense of the word. I totally get that the main facade has a specific historical style that can't be touched. But this is just the back of the building. The rear wall has a super basic, old exterior that's long overdue for a renovation anyway.

I was thinking about doing a French balcony, which feels like something I could pull off without needing a massive permit. My plan is to widen the window opening and turn it into balcony doors. Basically, I'd convert the window into doors, expand it slightly to let more light in, and then set up a French balcony from there.

Do I actually need a permit for that? Like, do I need permission just to widen a window opening and swap it for doors that have a railing on the outside? The railing would only stick out maybe a foot at most, and its only purpose is to make sure nobody falls out when the doors are open.

So, do I really need a building permit for this? And how am I supposed to figure out if I need approval from a historical preservation officer? Who even is that guy? Is there a list somewhere that says which buildings need preservation clearance and which ones don't? Where is all that stuff even defined?

That's why I hopped on the forum to ask around first—I'm totally lost on how this whole process works. So, I'm asking 🙂
Hannah Stewart Hannah Stewart Member
22 messages
joined Feb 2023
#11 ·
That "little, prefabricated iron balcony" you’re planning to stick onto the corner of an Art Nouveau building is precisely the kind of thing that caused such a massive headache for academic Velimir Neidhardt. I’ll leave this article here as a little refresher on that whole scandal—maybe it can serve as some inspiration for your project, though I suppose it depends on how much you actually enjoy meddling with historic landmarks:

Regarding what you called a French WINDOW (the technically correct term, if we're being precise), you're essentially talking about altering the exterior facade by turning windows into doors, which means, again, you can't really do a thing without getting the green light from both the historical preservation officer and the rest of the building owners.

Look, you bought a penthouse in a historic landmarked building, so I guess you just have to accept the reality of that. Do you actually know what those spaces were originally intended for? Most of them were used as storage, or perhaps they were designed as quarters for a caretaker or domestic staff, or maybe just cheap rental units. Naturally, attics didn't come with balconies back then, and honestly, even many of the lower-floor apartments weren't equipped with them, even though those larger units were meant for a much more upscale clientele.
Steven Young23 Steven Young23 Member
41 messages
joined Mar 2013
#12 ·
If you’re going to be stubborn about asking questions, then at least have the decency to respect the expertise of those who actually know what they’re talking about.
The conservators in this scenario would be the Department of the Interior or your local historical preservation office Even if you aren't pulling a full construction permit, any change to the exterior requires their explicit approval for the proposed work. Or, at the very least, they need to tell you that you don't need it—though based on your description of the building, I highly doubt that's an option.
Furthermore, since you are messing with the building's exterior, you are legally required to get consent from the other co-owners.
If your plans involve touching the structural integrity of the building, you absolutely need a licensed professional to confirm whether it's even physically possible. Ultimately, you'll need a certified engineer to draft the actual blueprints for everything mentioned above.
None of this is an impossible mission; it just requires significant time, effort, and capital. But if your grand plan was to slap some amateurish design onto that historic building without consulting anyone—acting as if you're the smartest person in the room and that an engineer's input is beneath you—then my advice is simple: don't bother.
Steven Palmer12 Steven Palmer12 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jun 2022
#13 ·
So, look, if you're planning on widening that opening in the exterior wall, you don't actually need a full-blown building permit from the city, but—and this is a big but!—you absolutely have to have your master plans ready to go. We're talking the main architectural blueprints and the structural engineering plans (all according to those standard regulations for simple residential works).
Before any of that happens, though, your architect has to file a formal Description and a graphic layout of the building with the local zoning department. Based on that, the various government agencies will send over their specific requirements for drafting those master plans—and yeah, that includes getting the green light from the historical preservation office too.
But honestly, if I were you, I’d take a page out of the book of my buddy Steven Young23 and follow his lead—seriously, listen to him, he really knows his stuff and is always so incredibly helpful without asking for anything in return—just head straight down to the historical preservation office first. Just ask them point-blank if they'll even allow a reconstruction of the building at all! You don't want to spend a fortune on expensive engineering projects only to find out they won't let you touch the facade.
Oh, and one more thing! You definitely need to make sure you have the enthusiastic thumbs-up from all the other co-owners in the building.
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#14 ·
Hannah Stewart said:That "little, prefabricated iron balcony" you’re planning to stick onto the corner of an Art Nouveau building is precisely the kind of thing that caused such a massive headache for academic Velimir Neidhardt. I’ll leave this article here as a little refresher on that whole scandal—maybe it can serve as some inspiration for your project, though I suppose it depends on how much you actually enjoy meddling with historic landmarks:

Regarding what you called a French WINDOW (the technically correct term, if we're being precise), you're essentially talking about altering the exterior facade by turning windows into doors, which means, again, you can't really do a thing without getting the green light from both the historical preservation officer and the rest of the building owners.

Look, you bought a penthouse in a historic landmarked building, so I guess you just have to accept the reality of that. Do you actually know what those spaces were originally intended for? Most of them were used as storage, or perhaps they were designed as quarters for a caretaker or domestic staff, or maybe just cheap rental units. Naturally, attics didn't come with balconies back then, and honestly, even many of the lower-floor apartments weren't equipped with them, even though those larger units were meant for a much more upscale clientele.

If an academic can get screwed over like that, I’d definitely be right there with them. Trust me, I get it. I have zero intention of putting myself in a position where I sink my time and money into something just to end up getting burned. I’m not trying to deal with some lawsuit from the Historical Preservation Office or whatever agency handles that stuff. That’s exactly why I’m hanging out here—to do my homework. I need to know exactly what the rules are and how I can find a legal way to actually improve this place. Man, having one of those French doors or a little balcony would be such a dream. Just being able to open the door and sit outside with a coffee? That would be the absolute life.
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#15 ·
Hannah Stewart said:That "little, prefabricated iron balcony" you’re planning to stick onto the corner of an Art Nouveau building is precisely the kind of thing that caused such a massive headache for academic Velimir Neidhardt. I’ll leave this article here as a little refresher on that whole scandal—maybe it can serve as some inspiration for your project, though I suppose it depends on how much you actually enjoy meddling with historic landmarks:

Regarding what you called a French WINDOW (the technically correct term, if we're being precise), you're essentially talking about altering the exterior facade by turning windows into doors, which means, again, you can't really do a thing without getting the green light from both the historical preservation officer and the rest of the building owners.

Look, you bought a penthouse in a historic landmarked building, so I guess you just have to accept the reality of that. Do you actually know what those spaces were originally intended for? Most of them were used as storage, or perhaps they were designed as quarters for a caretaker or domestic staff, or maybe just cheap rental units. Naturally, attics didn't come with balconies back then, and honestly, even many of the lower-floor apartments weren't equipped with them, even though those larger units were meant for a much more upscale clientele.

Exactly. Up here in the attic, it was either storage space or some little apartment for a janitor or help. Something like that. There are two actual units here now, plus the area where the attic storage is located. Whether it was all storage before, and then during the post-war era they converted part of it into two apartments... I honestly don't know.

But the other apartments on the lower floors—the standard ones around 900 square feet—they do have balconies. The front of the building has balconies, too, featuring ornate architectural styles with statues built into the facade and wrought-iron railings.

The building was built back in 1909, which means it was during the time when Cleveland was being developed as a major port for the Magyar people. That was actually the biggest construction boom for the City of Cleveland because the Magyars were pouring massive amounts of money into it back then. This specific building was built for some wealthy elites—high-end tenants. You can see the statues embedded right into the exterior facade. It’s easily one of the most beautiful facades around. You rarely see a building with a frontage like this. It clearly had to be built for their upper class.

The back of the building is just a plain facade. Nothing fancy about it. Just basic stucco because that side doesn't face the street, so they probably just left it like that. Basic stucco does the job. That stucco is still there today; it’s never been renovated or even touched. My windows that I'm talking about are on that back side.
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#16 ·
Hannah Stewart;92885931 said:That "tiny, prefab iron balcony" you're planning to stick onto the edge of an Art Nouveau building is exactly what screwed over academic Velimir Neidhardt. Here’s an article to refresh your memory on the scandal—maybe it'll give you some inspiration for your little project, since you seem so keen on messing with historical landmarks:

Regarding the French WINDOW (that's the actual term), you're also messing with the exterior facade because you're turning windows into doors. So yeah, once again, you can't do squat without approval from both the preservationists and the other owners.

Look, you bought a penthouse in a historic building; deal with it. Do you even know what those spaces were originally used for? Mostly storage, or maybe they were designed as a caretaker's unit or

Steven Young23 said:If you’re going to be stubborn about asking questions, then at least have the decency to respect the expertise of those who actually know what they’re talking about.
The conservators in this scenario would be the Department of the Interior or your local historical preservation office Even if you aren't pulling a full construction permit, any change to the exterior requires their explicit approval for the proposed work. Or, at the very least, they need to tell you that you don't need it—though based on your description of the building, I highly doubt that's an option.
Furthermore, since you are messing with the building's exterior, you are legally required to get consent from the other co-owners.
If your plans involve touching the structural integrity of the building, you absolutely need a licensed professional to confirm whether it's even physically possible. Ultimately, you'll need a certified engineer to draft the actual blueprints for everything mentioned above.
None of this is an impossible mission; it just requires significant time, effort, and capital. But if your grand plan was to slap some amateurish design onto that historic building without consulting anyone—acting as if you're the smartest person in the room and that an engineer's input is beneath you—then my advice is simple: don't bother.

So, even if the preservation officer approves it based on an architect's plan—regardless of whether I need a formal building permit to resize existing window openings—I still need permission from all 11 co-owners? Did I get that right?

Why am I asking? Because I'll probably get the okay from the preservationist if I hire an architect. But getting everyone in the building to sign off is a whole different story, especially since there are people I don't even know. Some of them don't even live here. One of the owners is actually the City of Cleveland, since they own one of the three commercial spaces on the ground floor. Getting a signature from all 11 owners feels like a mission impossible. At least, that's my take. There are owners in this building who don't live here and couldn't care less about me. Why would they bother giving me permission? If even one person decides, "Nope, I'm not signing anything," does that mean the whole thing is dead in the water? Does it really mean the architect's work and the preservationist's approval are all for nothing just because one lady in the building refuses to sign?
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#17 ·
Steven Young23 said:If you’re going to be stubborn about asking questions, then at least have the decency to respect the expertise of those who actually know what they’re talking about.
The conservators in this scenario would be the Department of the Interior or your local historical preservation office Even if you aren't pulling a full construction permit, any change to the exterior requires their explicit approval for the proposed work. Or, at the very least, they need to tell you that you don't need it—though based on your description of the building, I highly doubt that's an option.
Furthermore, since you are messing with the building's exterior, you are legally required to get consent from the other co-owners.
If your plans involve touching the structural integrity of the building, you absolutely need a licensed professional to confirm whether it's even physically possible. Ultimately, you'll need a certified engineer to draft the actual blueprints for everything mentioned above.
None of this is an impossible mission; it just requires significant time, effort, and capital. But if your grand plan was to slap some amateurish design onto that historic building without consulting anyone—acting as if you're the smartest person in the room and that an engineer's input is beneath you—then my advice is simple: don't bother.

So, who exactly is the "licensed pro"? Are we talking an architect? And yeah, it would definitely impact the structure since those exterior walls are nearly three feet thick; any expansion is bound to affect the load-bearing capacity.

I'm not looking to cut corners or do anything sketchy. I'm a rule-follower. I'm not some clown trying to pull fast ones. I'd be willing to chase the paperwork for years if that's what it takes to make sure everything is above board. As long as it's actually doable, I'm all in. The last thing I want to do is try some amateur acrobatics, have a building inspector show up, get hit with massive fines, and then be forced to tear it all down.

Everything I do is going to be legit and within the law. I'm not risking illegal renovations just for the sake of it; that would only hurt the value of the place I've poured so much money into.

Bottom line: I'm ready to grind through the bureaucracy, even if it takes years, because I want to build something that's legal and permitted. I want a proper architectural plan. We can't take any risks with the structural stability.

I just need someone with actual expertise to walk me through the exact process so I know which direction to head in. I've got the drive and the budget to make this happen, no matter how much time or money it requires.
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#18 ·
Steven Palmer12 said:So, look, if you're planning on widening that opening in the exterior wall, you don't actually need a full-blown building permit from the city, but—and this is a big but!—you absolutely have to have your master plans ready to go. We're talking the main architectural blueprints and the structural engineering plans (all according to those standard regulations for simple residential works).
Before any of that happens, though, your architect has to file a formal Description and a graphic layout of the building with the local zoning department. Based on that, the various government agencies will send over their specific requirements for drafting those master plans—and yeah, that includes getting the green light from the historical preservation office too.
But honestly, if I were you, I’d take a page out of the book of my buddy Steven Young23 and follow his lead—seriously, listen to him, he really knows his stuff and is always so incredibly helpful without asking for anything in return—just head straight down to the historical preservation office first. Just ask them point-blank if they'll even allow a reconstruction of the building at all! You don't want to spend a fortune on expensive engineering projects only to find out they won't let you touch the facade.
Oh, and one more thing! You definitely need to make sure you have the enthusiastic thumbs-up from all the other co-owners in the building.

Aha. Got it. So, check with the historic preservation folks first to see if it's even a possibility, and if they give the green light, then I can have an architect draw up the plans you mentioned.

That sounds doable. But what does "on board" actually mean when it comes to the other owners? Are we talking about getting signed consent from all 11 condo owners? Or is it more of a relaxed thing, like nobody objects as long as the architect handles the paperwork and the city approves it?

Could you clarify what "positive opinion" really looks like in practice?
Steven Young23 Steven Young23 Member
41 messages
joined Mar 2013
#19 ·
According to Google,
https://www.google.com/search?client...h=778&dpr=2.63
wearycyclist57 wearycyclist57 MemberOP
13 messages
joined May 2022
#20 ·
One more question... If I want to install a skylight, do I need to get a permit from the local historical preservation office? And would I also need to get the green light from all the other homeowners in my condo building?

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