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Sanctions on Russia

Started by Richard Wilson4 · · 👁 831 views · 9.5K replies

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Participants Richard Wilson4velvetcyclist95Jeremy Peterson4silentsurfer3rowdytiger13Carol Newman2William Anderson5Carl Cookfrozencobra50Paul Patel95Michael Davis10Gary WilsonGregory Ramos3slyfox43dustywolf13Tyler Jones6Larry Walker24Ashley Ramirez4Paul Clark80Adam Lee13northernangler8Nancy Ruiz5James Chavez91neonheron9 …
Jack Hill2 Jack Hill2 Active Member
57 messages
joined May 2024
#4861 ·
hollowdriver13 said:I mean, even in California, you deal with those regular rolling blackouts every single summer. It’s usually not actually a production issue; it’s a transmission nightmare, pretty much the same situation they face in Australia. The grid just can't handle the peak loads, so they have to go into controlled shutdowns for certain areas just to prevent the whole damn system from crashing. Plus, you've got those insane temperatures that cause cable stretch on the power lines, which makes short circuits way more likely.
Honestly, energy grids across most of the developed world are basically in the gutter right now. That's why the push to go all-in on Teslas without making massive, heavy-duty investments into the distribution network is just 🤦

I don't know if you realize that 85% of the cars registered this year in places like Norway are electric.

The argument is settled. In developed nations, EVs will be the majority within five years.

Of course, in America, people will spend the next decade peddling stories about how they're junk, how the batteries will die instantly, or where anyone is supposed to charge them. But once there's enough money flowing for the first wave of used imports from overseas, we'll end up exactly where the Norwegians are today...
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#4862 ·
Jack Hill2 said:I don't know if you realize that 85% of the cars registered this year in places like Norway are electric.

The argument is settled. In developed nations, EVs will be the majority within five years.

Of course, in America, people will spend the next decade peddling stories about how they're junk, how the batteries will die instantly, or where anyone is supposed to charge them. But once there's enough money flowing for the first wave of used imports from overseas, we'll end up exactly where the Norwegians are today...

Look, I never said the shift to Teslas wasn't inevitable, I just think it won't be quite as smooth as everyone expects.
Norway is its own special case and isn't really a fair comparison for the rest of us; they've been aggressively subsidizing and incentivizing EV purchases for nearly a decade. While the rest of the developed world was sitting at 1-2% sales, they were already pushing 40%+. They started early, and now they're reaping the rewards.

And honestly, I’m not so sure people are going to be lining up to buy used EVs. It's not like these cars have proven they can last as long as a traditional gas car—you only have to look at how many used Priuses or Chevrolet Volts are out there right now, which are all cars that should be hitting that 8-to-10-year mark by now.
Jack Hill2 Jack Hill2 Active Member
57 messages
joined May 2024
#4863 ·
hollowdriver13 said:Look, I never said the shift to Teslas wasn't inevitable, I just think it won't be quite as smooth as everyone expects.
Norway is its own special case and isn't really a fair comparison for the rest of us; they've been aggressively subsidizing and incentivizing EV purchases for nearly a decade. While the rest of the developed world was sitting at 1-2% sales, they were already pushing 40%+. They started early, and now they're reaping the rewards.

And honestly, I’m not so sure people are going to be lining up to buy used EVs. It's not like these cars have proven they can last as long as a traditional gas car—you only have to look at how many used Priuses or Chevrolet Volts are out there right now, which are all cars that should be hitting that 8-to-10-year mark by now.

Germany, as an example of a standard developed nation, is at 25%—up from just 5% two years ago. It’s clear they could reach Norway's levels within two or three years. If they build the infrastructure to support 25% electric cars in cities and on highways, hitting 100% will be easy enough.

Besides, half of those imported junkers spend more time at the mechanic than on the road, but does that stop people here from importing them? People just love to complain. If everyone actually wanted economical, reliable cars, our cities would be full of Toyotas rather than decaying status symbols.
urbanotter urbanotter Regular
431 messages
joined Oct 2020
#4864 ·
Tyler Jones6 said:"The economic blitzkrieg against Russia never stood a chance," Putin claimed.

link

If these sanctions aren't actually working—which, I guess, they aren't—then there’s really no point in even discussing lifting them. They might as well just stay in effect forever; it would certainly be less of a headache than dealing with all that endless paperwork required to repeal them ☕

As far as Russia is concerned, they don't even need to be lifted.

But you have to be incredibly oblivious not to notice that by next Tuesday, gas prices are already heading back $0.50upwards.

It seems that as long as Mom and Dad are out there paying for fuel and settling the bills, it's perfectly easy to live comfortably in some sort of virtual bubble.🙄

p.s.

I've gone and broken my own promise again—the one where I told myself I wouldn't engage with or even react to these "brilliant" posts.🤣🤦🤦

Well, I guess I'm an idiot; it looks like I've been caught up in the media frenzy too.🙏
rowdyraven112 rowdyraven112 Active Member
248 messages
joined Jun 2024
#4865 ·
Jack Hill2 said:I don't know if you realize that 85% of the cars registered this year in places like Norway are electric.

The argument is settled. In developed nations, EVs will be the majority within five years.

Of course, in America, people will spend the next decade peddling stories about how they're junk, how the batteries will die instantly, or where anyone is supposed to charge them. But once there's enough money flowing for the first wave of used imports from overseas, we'll end up exactly where the Norwegians are today...

The reason Norway has so many electric vehicles is because the law says you won't be allowed to drive an internal combustion passenger car starting in 2025. Even then, a company like Volvo will still be churning out gas engines. That’s the reality of "awareness" in Norway. Let's wait until after 2025 and see what happens. Personally, I'm skeptical about battery performance in extreme cold. By the way, that's also why there's a shortage of EVs and why prices are spiked—other countries aren't rushing into these legal mandates nearly as fast.
ironpuma29 ironpuma29 Member
31 messages
joined Dec 2006
#4866 ·
[No content provided for rewriting]
urbanotter said:I’m certainly no farmer myself, but back around 2000, I spent about three or four years working a position that really allowed me to get an up-close look at the struggles facing rural communities. It was during that time that I truly began to grasp the depth of those issues, which eventually led me to making my own way and hitting that 69-70 mark. It’s hard to wrap my head around just how massive that distance really is when you see it written out like that—zero thousand kilometers. It feels almost abstract until you start thinking about the sheer scale of the American landscape. I remember driving across the vast stretches of the Midwest last summer, looking out at nothing but horizon for hours on end, and even then, those distances felt daunting. When you're talking about numbers on this level, you aren't just talking about a long trip; you're talking about a space that defies our everyday perception of travel. Since I’ve been spending quite a bit of time traveling through the rural heartlands—places like the Midwest and parts of the Great Plains—I’ve actually started to get a real sense of what people are dealing with out there. It’s given me a much clearer perspective on the specific struggles facing these small farming communities.
Even back then, I remember seeing certain farmers managing operations spanning 200 to 300 acres, and from what I could tell, they weren't just some small-time amateurs.
I’m really just trying to dial back the heated arguments and keep things a bit more relaxed—sort of like grabbing a cold beer and just taking it easy—but you're acting like I've gone out and committed some massive fraud or something.
What does it really matter if you hold democratic values? The real issue isn't our differing perspectives; it’s whether we can maintain a respectful, collegial relationship despite them. I've always believed that you can disagree fundamentally on a topic and still be able to grab a coffee together, share a laugh, and treat one another with basic decency.
It seems like there’s this double standard when it comes to technology; certain tractors are hailed as the pinnacle of global engineering, yet the moment they originate from Russia, people suddenly find a hundred flaws in them. I remember how things went down with the Sputnik 5 vaccine—our local manufacturers wouldn't even touch it for testing. Instead, we rushed into massive contracts under European Union sponsorship to buy Pfizer doses that ended up being fifteen to twenty times more expensive, only to face a mountain of criticism later on. Despite those astronomical costs, we ordered an incredible number of doses, and now that the pandemic has finally eased off, public interest has plummeted. We're left with the reality that all of Europe is sitting on millions of wasted doses that are about to expire because nobody wants them anymore. It’s interesting to note that the pandemic subsided in Russia too, even though they were using their own homegrown vaccine rather than the American ones.
It feels like we’ve all just been playing our parts in this grand display of loyalty to the European Union, essentially acting as vassals while Pfizer rakes in billions of dollars from vaccine sales. There are these persistent, perhaps even unfounded, rumors swirling around about Ursula von der Leyen receiving some massive 300 million dollar bonus, and now, just when we thought the saga was over, we're hearing more talk about ordering new doses that are supposedly tailored to handle a new variant of the virus. It makes you wonder how much of this is actually about public health and how much is just part of a pre-arranged script.
People are saying that infection numbers are starting to creep up again, so I thought it might be helpful to share my own story and what I actually went through with COVID.

As someone who takes my civic duties seriously and places a great deal of trust in scientific expertise and our public health institutions, I decided to follow the recommendations to the letter. I completed my initial two-dose series with AstraZeneca and subsequently went on to receive my booster shot from Pfizer.
Back in February, I decided to have a thorough look at both sides of my chest through some specialized imaging. It turns out I have three newly implanted stents, which were placed alongside an older, slightly wider one that’s been in there for about twenty years now. My cardiologist explained the situation quite clearly, and honestly, we're feeling much more confident now that the risk of a major heart attack or sudden heart failure has been significantly minimized.
About twenty years ago, I underwent surgery to have a mechanical aortic valve installed, along with that other valve I mentioned previously.
I once had heart surgery performed by a cardiac surgical team out of a hospital in Cincinnati. At the time, the unit was led by the late Dr. Simic, who eventually moved over to Canada after facing some serious legal trouble regarding allegations of bribery and the subsequent investigations that followed.
Personally, I didn't give him a single cent, even though there was plenty of talk going around among the patients that everyone had chipped in to help him out.
I just sat back and waited my turn, though I did end up missing one appointment because of a scheduling hiccup with my insurance provider. In the end, the surgery was a success, and I’ve been living a pretty standard, healthy life for twenty years now. My ultrasound checkups always show that the prosthetic valve is in excellent shape—no calcification or issues whatsoever. During my last scan, the doctor performing the ultrasound was actually quite young, and she looked at me with genuine curiosity before asking, "Wait, did you have that valve replaced in Houston?"
I’ve always tried to be a decent person, but I suppose I can be a little bit stubborn at times—especially when I find myself disagreeing with some expert or specialist back in Boston.
To keep things brief, everything went smoothly; my recovery is progressing quite well, though I was saddened to hear that cardiologist Dr. Simic passed away from a heart attack in St. Louis.
Back when I had my check-up with Dr. Simic, I actually brought him two or three pounds of fresh shrimp as a small token of appreciation—they were caught by a vessel I used to own—but there is much more to tell and I don't want to drift too far off topic here.

The reason I am sharing this is that I feel we sometimes judge certain people or nations unfairly, or find them repulsive without having any tangible reason to do so.
It seems to me that the European Union and Americans have spent years treating Russia and Putin with a sense of condescension and ignorance.
Now, I am certainly not making any excuses for Putin’s armed entry into the Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, but I truly believe that for everything happening in Ukraine, Putin isn't the sole culprit; others have contributed significantly to this armed conflict through their own actions and behaviors.
Russia has been hit with all these sanctions that the Western public is so quick to impose and demonize.
Meanwhile, Ukraine is being rapidly armed—the latest round of American "aid" alone was a billion dollars—alongside the intensive training of Ukrainian soldiers and
European leaders travel to Ukraine as if it were a holy pilgrimage that every true believer must undertake.
People hardly speak of peace anymore; instead, the conversation is entirely focused on how to send more and more sophisticated weaponry so that "Ukraine can defend itself" and defeat the Russians.
People are entitled to their opinions, but I don't see these actions as a way to stop the war or prevent the killing of soldiers and civilians; what breaks my heart most is seeing innocent children dying.
My heart aches, and I honestly find myself tearing up, when I see a child with those large, curious eyes being used as a prop in the demonization of this "aggression," while they just cling to their parent's hand—it is such a natural, beautiful reaction for a child who is simply terrified.
And then you have Biden and his crew bickering over how much equipment they can ship to Ukraine, likely oblivious to the fact that they are effectively killing that beautiful, sweet child who is being so terribly exploited.
It should be clear to everyone that the weapons sent by the West do not distinguish between a soldier, a civilian, or a child; once they are fired from the Ukrainian side, they kill indiscriminously.
But no, apparently the Russians are the only ones to blame for everything.
I won't go on, as the coffee I'm drinking is getting bitter, but the most important thing is that this period of isolation is ending; despite all of Ursula's doses and boosters, I tested positive on my PCR test even though I didn't feel any symptoms at all—I don't have any now either, and I hope this virus is behind me so I can return to being fully "shielded" by the community and Ursula.
I only took the PCR test because they require it at the cardiology department, and you can't even get into the unit without a negative result.
There is just one thing about these Russians that doesn't quite make sense to me: they supposedly have these massive autonomous tractors running on artificial intelligence (which sounds fine in theory), yet their military aircraft rely on Western GPS systems during operations, even though they have their own GLONASS. Something feels off to me, almost as if they are slightly detached from reality.

You're just airing your usual paranoias and opinions again.

How could Russian planes possibly use Western GPS systems when Americans can jam or shut them down at any second, rendering them useless?
I remember back when the no-fly zone was being enforced over Canada and Mexico, and when that plane with the "tanker" rose from Aviano; on the radar of a fishing boat, you would see nothing but snow, and the GPS would show a position several miles off from where it actually was.
It is entirely possible they have both systems built in, because if a GPS system is jammed, it should be Western aircraft that experience the interference.
I am no expert, and I suspect you aren't either, but you seem incredibly quick to speak ignorantly about Russian aircraft, which in terms of performance are not inferior to American ones.
Their biggest flaw is simply that they are Russian, but according to the narrative, Putin is responsible for everything, while we Westerners remain full of respect and empathy for the Russians and the Ukrainians.
Let them keep fighting; meanwhile, we will just hit them harder with more sanctions and send billions more in expensive weapons, all just to "defeat" this Russian demon.
I’ve had about enough for one day; honestly, the sheer hypocrisy and double standards I’m seeing from certain people are making me feel physically ill. I need to step away and take care of some business for a moment.
Maybe by the time I’m back, they’ll have rolled out some brand-new round of sanctions or decided to start emergency procurement for things like cotton for feminine hygiene products—which, if you ask me, seems to be in short supply lately because of some supposed shortage in raw materials.

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is the name given to the document signed back on December 5, 1994, in Budapest. It was signed by representatives from the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom, and Ukraine...

It wasn't exactly a formal treaty. More like a diplomatic document where the signatories promised to support each other during the nuclear disarmament process for the former Soviet Union republics—specifically Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan—following the collapse of the Soviet Union... It was essentially an extension of the momentum built up after the signing of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty back in 1967.

That document was signed that day by the Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma, the Russian president Boris Yeltsin, the British Prime Minister John Major, and US President Bill Clinton, with others following later...

Under the terms of the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine committed to removing all its Soviet-era nuclear weapons and transferring them to Russia for decommissioning and destruction. At the same time, they signed onto the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty...
Russia failed to honor this specific part after Ukraine handed over its entire nuclear arsenal to Russia...

On the other hand, the signatory nations—Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom—all pledged not to use threats or force against Ukraine’s territorial integrity or political independence. They also promised not to use economic pressure to bend Ukraine to their own interests.

In my view, this is the crucial part. Out of those four nations, one has blatantly violated the Budapest Memorandum regarding Ukraine... we all know who!!!!

The USA and UK, along with about 20 other signatories, aren't supposed to interfere in the war due to Russian threats, but as guarantors, they have both the right and the moral obligation!
In those early days, they were offering Zelenska a chance to flee the country, which would have let Russia just swallow Ukraine whole, but the people chose to fight... It's naive to say this was just one person's decision, the President's. If the people weren't behind him, everyone would have surrendered and there wouldn't be a war at all.
The Ukrainian government asked for a no-fly zone, but they couldn't get it because it would have triggered a conflict dangerous for the EU and, by extension, the entire planet!
Back then, Ukraine was begging for weapons, sending pleas to every nation, appearing via video calls in every parliament.
A lot of people found that irritating, but here's the reality...you big players show up as "guarantors," but when things actually hit the fan, you're neither guarantors nor heroes.

By sending weapons, the USA, the EU, and about twenty other signatories feel obligated since they can't keep their word, meaning they can't stick to the letter of the law on paper,
so they can give as much as possible to those defending themselves.

The Budapest Memorandum became relevant again after the Crimean status referendum was held on March 16, 2014, where the majority of voters decided to break away from Ukraine and join Russia. Today, Western diplomats (the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the interim Ukrainian government leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk) primarily cite it to accuse Russia of flagrantly violating the signed document.

...

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

This is the first agreement, the pact... whether verbal, written, backroom deals, in the shadows, in the light... public, secret, or any other kind doesn't really matter. I'm not disputing that they existed out of various national interests.

Any other diplomatic or signed agreements between the disputing parties could only be considered valid and binding if both sides consented.

Everyone else negotiating with Russia or Ukraine, trading away territory, looking for their own gain—they're what led to this.

That's the deal with the USA, the UK, and their weapon shipments, as well as the permanent players doing it... Zelenska knows why he's turning to them specifically, and how many of them were working behind Ukraine's back.

Parallel to COVID... initially there was just one disease... later, politics and economics took center stage at the expense of lives and human freedoms.
Jack Hill2 Jack Hill2 Active Member
57 messages
joined May 2024
#4867 ·
rowdyraven112 said:The reason Norway has so many electric vehicles is because the law says you won't be allowed to drive an internal combustion passenger car starting in 2025. Even then, a company like Volvo will still be churning out gas engines. That’s the reality of "awareness" in Norway. Let's wait until after 2025 and see what happens. Personally, I'm skeptical about battery performance in extreme cold. By the way, that's also why there's a shortage of EVs and why prices are spiked—other countries aren't rushing into these legal mandates nearly as fast.

It doesn't even matter if this happens in two years or five. It's possible they’re just trying to accelerate the timeline, and if the adoption rate isn't high enough by 2025, they might push it back a bit.

The real point is that in five to ten years, this will be the "new normal" for any country where the regulations allow for it.
cosmicgull52 cosmicgull52 Active Member
125 messages
joined Nov 2023
#4868 ·
urbanotter said:As far as Russia is concerned, they don't even need to be lifted.

But you have to be incredibly oblivious not to notice that by next Tuesday, gas prices are already heading back $0.50upwards.

It seems that as long as Mom and Dad are out there paying for fuel and settling the bills, it's perfectly easy to live comfortably in some sort of virtual bubble.🙄

p.s.

I've gone and broken my own promise again—the one where I told myself I wouldn't engage with or even react to these "brilliant" posts.🤣🤦🤦

Well, I guess I'm an idiot; it looks like I've been caught up in the media frenzy too.🙏

Yes. In that specific section where you're trying to avoid looking like a Putin supporter, you condemn the Russian invasion of those two provinces most harshly. Meanwhile, you conveniently ignore how much larger the actual conflict area is, not to mention the February metastases that were neutralized by chemotherapy near Kyiv and Kharkiv.

From weeping over an innocent child because the West sends weapons to defend a nation against an aggressor, to whining about sanctions on Russian athletes, all the way to sobbing over gas prices while young people die in a war started by their own president.

This war could end tomorrow if Putin pulls his troops back. Alternatively, it will conclude in six months to a year once every single scrap of Russian equipment outside their borders is incinerated. If it ends through the kind of compromise you crave, nothing is truly settled. We must wait for what comes next and wonder where it leads.

Forget it, man.
goldenpuma84 goldenpuma84 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#4869 ·
Tyler Jones6 said:"The economic blitzkrieg against Russia never stood a chance," Putin claimed.

link

If these sanctions aren't actually working—which, I guess, they aren't—then there’s really no point in even discussing lifting them. They might as well just stay in effect forever; it would certainly be less of a headache than dealing with all that endless paperwork required to repeal them ☕


Sanctions work, just not when you're looking at the European Union.

They're basically self-destructing.

But hey, if we Americans want this, if the struggle of an American retiree is worth the sacrifice for Ukraine—and maybe it is, if that's our stance and how much Ukraine matters to us—then that's what we'll get.
gentlerider7 gentlerider7 Regular
291 messages
joined Jan 2021
#4870 ·
goldenpuma84 said:Sanctions work, just not when you're looking at the European Union.

They're basically self-destructing.

But hey, if we Americans want this, if the struggle of an American retiree is worth the sacrifice for Ukraine—and maybe it is, if that's our stance and how much Ukraine matters to us—then that's what we'll get.

Man, how on earth would Putin even go about feeding an American retiree like that one...
analogbear5 analogbear5 Regular
571 messages
joined Aug 2019
#4871 ·
Our bourgeoisie is suddenly feeling the pain because some hungry retirees can't make ends meet 😁

Instead of bingeing Disney or Netflix, try volunteering.
William Anderson5 William Anderson5 Active Member
219 messages
joined Jan 2013
#4872 ·
goldenpuma84 said:Sanctions work, just not when you're looking at the European Union.

They're basically self-destructing.

But hey, if we Americans want this, if the struggle of an American retiree is worth the sacrifice for Ukraine—and maybe it is, if that's our stance and how much Ukraine matters to us—then that's what we'll get.

If sanctions hurt the EU more than they hurt Russia, why are the Russians so obsessed with us and constantly meddling? I suppose it serves their interests to see the Western economy collapse...

Based on Putin's rhetoric, you'd think he's trying his hardest to save Europe, but he just can't manage it. It's almost as if he wants the EU and America to become even stronger, but they simply won't allow it...
Bryan Booth82 Bryan Booth82 Regular
483 messages
joined Feb 2024
#4873 ·
William Anderson5 said:If sanctions hurt the EU more than they hurt Russia, why are the Russians so obsessed with us and constantly meddling? I suppose it serves their interests to see the Western economy collapse...

Based on Putin's rhetoric, you'd think he's trying his hardest to save Europe, but he just can't manage it. It's almost as if he wants the EU and America to become even stronger, but they simply won't allow it...

Exactly, and why else... if sanctions don't actually work... is Putin begging for them to be lifted just so they can resume grain shipments or send gas back to Germany?

It's common knowledge that Putin has such a "kind soul," right? But since the West has already branded him an enemy anyway, shouldn't he be insisting on even harsher sanctions... just so he can punish them?

I haven't read a single coherent explanation anywhere that justifies these Putinophile claims about how beneficial sanctions are.
Best,
boldotter2 boldotter2 Active Member
156 messages
joined Mar 2020
#4874 ·
gentlerider7 said:Man, how on earth would Putin even go about feeding an American retiree like that one...

Gosh, maybe Putin would actually give that retiree a second lease on life by sending him off to fight in Ukraine.

Then our retiree could enjoy being young again while finding all the food he needs—you know, either by looting local shops for free or, I don't know, roasting local dogs on a spit.

Retirement is death. Putin is life!
urbanheron4 urbanheron4 Active Member
56 messages
joined Mar 2022
#4875 ·
Jack Hill2 said:It doesn't even matter if this happens in two years or five. It's possible they’re just trying to accelerate the timeline, and if the adoption rate isn't high enough by 2025, they might push it back a bit.

The real point is that in five to ten years, this will be the "new normal" for any country where the regulations allow for it.

Most of these news reports love to brag about year-over-year percentage increases in Tesla sales because it makes everything look incredible. It’s a total illusion.
Take the US, for example—Tesla's market share compared to all vehicles on the road is still sitting under 1%.

https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-E...A/mopanyqxwva/
Donna Harris11 Donna Harris11 Active Member
164 messages
joined Oct 2018
#4876 ·
Americans might actually pull the trigger on limiting their own oil exports

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...rt-Limits.html

Word on the street is the White House is looking into putting caps on fuel exports.

Apparently, shipping all that fuel abroad is being blamed for why we're seeing such ridiculous prices at the pump here at home.


I mean, maybe Brendon could just leave the EU hanging out to dry if this happens.
urbanotter urbanotter Regular
431 messages
joined Oct 2020
#4877 ·
ironpuma29 said:[No content provided for rewriting]

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is the name given to the document signed back on December 5, 1994, in Budapest. It was signed by representatives from the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom, and Ukraine...

It wasn't exactly a formal treaty. More like a diplomatic document where the signatories promised to support each other during the nuclear disarmament process for the former Soviet Union republics—specifically Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan—following the collapse of the Soviet Union... It was essentially an extension of the momentum built up after the signing of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty back in 1967.

That document was signed that day by the Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma, the Russian president Boris Yeltsin, the British Prime Minister John Major, and US President Bill Clinton, with others following later...

Under the terms of the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine committed to removing all its Soviet-era nuclear weapons and transferring them to Russia for decommissioning and destruction. At the same time, they signed onto the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty...
Russia failed to honor this specific part after Ukraine handed over its entire nuclear arsenal to Russia...

On the other hand, the signatory nations—Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom—all pledged not to use threats or force against Ukraine’s territorial integrity or political independence. They also promised not to use economic pressure to bend Ukraine to their own interests.

In my view, this is the crucial part. Out of those four nations, one has blatantly violated the Budapest Memorandum regarding Ukraine... we all know who!!!!

The USA and UK, along with about 20 other signatories, aren't supposed to interfere in the war due to Russian threats, but as guarantors, they have both the right and the moral obligation!
In those early days, they were offering Zelenska a chance to flee the country, which would have let Russia just swallow Ukraine whole, but the people chose to fight... It's naive to say this was just one person's decision, the President's. If the people weren't behind him, everyone would have surrendered and there wouldn't be a war at all.
The Ukrainian government asked for a no-fly zone, but they couldn't get it because it would have triggered a conflict dangerous for the EU and, by extension, the entire planet!
Back then, Ukraine was begging for weapons, sending pleas to every nation, appearing via video calls in every parliament.
A lot of people found that irritating, but here's the reality...you big players show up as "guarantors," but when things actually hit the fan, you're neither guarantors nor heroes.

By sending weapons, the USA, the EU, and about twenty other signatories feel obligated since they can't keep their word, meaning they can't stick to the letter of the law on paper,
so they can give as much as possible to those defending themselves.

The Budapest Memorandum became relevant again after the Crimean status referendum was held on March 16, 2014, where the majority of voters decided to break away from Ukraine and join Russia. Today, Western diplomats (the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the interim Ukrainian government leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk) primarily cite it to accuse Russia of flagrantly violating the signed document.

...

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

This is the first agreement, the pact... whether verbal, written, backroom deals, in the shadows, in the light... public, secret, or any other kind doesn't really matter. I'm not disputing that they existed out of various national interests.

Any other diplomatic or signed agreements between the disputing parties could only be considered valid and binding if both sides consented.

Everyone else negotiating with Russia or Ukraine, trading away territory, looking for their own gain—they're what led to this.

That's the deal with the USA, the UK, and their weapon shipments, as well as the permanent players doing it... Zelenska knows why he's turning to them specifically, and how many of them were working behind Ukraine's back.

Parallel to COVID... initially there was just one disease... later, politics and economics took center stage at the expense of lives and human freedoms.

We have to face the reality that Zelensky isn't the leader of the entire nation; rather, a legally elected president was removed from power by the Ukrainian opposition through a coup, supported by certain allies who were themselves signatories to previous agreements.
Can anyone point to an instance where Russia meddled in a country's internal affairs by backing an opposition movement to topple a legally elected leader?
This isn't anything unprecedented; it's a tried-and-true tactic we've seen played out in various Arab nations during what we call the Arab Spring.
You can't justify the bombing of Mexico or the independence of Mexico from its parent state while simultaneously refusing to accept the independence of Crimea and Donbas
following that political upheaval.

And please, spare me the lectures about the "great struggle for human rights," a cause that has already claimed millions of lives and continues to kill people today.
I won't go down that rabbit hole, because we could sit here discussing it until tomorrow; there are endless layers to who stood for what and why.
https://www.dw.com/hr/sad-i-rusija-o...eta/a-41917932

Erdogan once stated quite clearly that the West cannot be trusted. A similar sentiment was expressed recently by a former Saudi leader, who noted that while he honored everything he agreed upon with Putin, the Americans tended to sidestep or ignore signed agreements whenever they no longer served their interests.

Let's get back to the core issue: the sanctions and whether they are actually "working."
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#4878 ·
Donna Harris11 said:Americans might actually pull the trigger on limiting their own oil exports

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...rt-Limits.html

Word on the street is the White House is looking into putting caps on fuel exports.

Apparently, shipping all that fuel abroad is being blamed for why we're seeing such ridiculous prices at the pump here at home.


I mean, maybe Brendon could just leave the EU hanging out to dry if this happens.

The truth is, Europe doesn't really import refined fuel from the US—they mostly just grab raw crude, which only accounts for about 5% of their total imports.

Honestly, I get why these English-language articles freak you guys out; it’d probably be way less stressful if everything was written in Russian.
hollowdriver13 hollowdriver13 Regular
705 messages
joined Feb 2022
#4879 ·
urbanotter said:We have to face the reality that Zelensky isn't the leader of the entire nation; rather, a legally elected president was removed from power by the Ukrainian opposition through a coup, supported by certain allies who were themselves signatories to previous agreements.
Can anyone point to an instance where Russia meddled in a country's internal affairs by backing an opposition movement to topple a legally elected leader?
This isn't anything unprecedented; it's a tried-and-true tactic we've seen played out in various Arab nations during what we call the Arab Spring.
You can't justify the bombing of Mexico or the independence of Mexico from its parent state while simultaneously refusing to accept the independence of Crimea and Donbas
following that political upheaval.

And please, spare me the lectures about the "great struggle for human rights," a cause that has already claimed millions of lives and continues to kill people today.
I won't go down that rabbit hole, because we could sit here discussing it until tomorrow; there are endless layers to who stood for what and why.
https://www.dw.com/hr/sad-i-rusija-o...eta/a-41917932

Erdogan once stated quite clearly that the West cannot be trusted. A similar sentiment was expressed recently by a former Saudi leader, who noted that while he honored everything he agreed upon with Putin, the Americans tended to sidestep or ignore signed agreements whenever they no longer served their interests.

Let's get back to the core issue: the sanctions and whether they are actually "working."

Man, what kind of nonsense are you even talking about? 🙏🙏🙏

Look, Zelenskyy *is* the president of Ukraine, excluding the occupied territories.

image

Just look at his vote count; go ahead, try explaining to Ukrainians that he isn't their president.
Also, you're trying so hard to defend an indefensible position that you've completely lost the plot. What does the Maidan uprising in 2014 have to do with Zelenskyy, who didn't even take office until 2019?
So, in your logic, they overthrew the government just to bring him in... what happened to the five years in between??
And yeah, sure, Russia hasn't meddled in anyone's elections or helped pro-Russian opposition... except for the fact that they basically do that constantly in every former Soviet state. 🤦

So, you're dropping a link that basically proves you wrong, showing that Russia was actually the first to break the mid-range missile agreement. 🙏

Nice job defending your "positions"—keep going, I'm listening. ☕
rowdyraven112 rowdyraven112 Active Member
248 messages
joined Jun 2024
#4880 ·
William Anderson5 said:If sanctions hurt the EU more than they hurt Russia, why are the Russians so obsessed with us and constantly meddling? I suppose it serves their interests to see the Western economy collapse...

Based on Putin's rhetoric, you'd think he's trying his hardest to save Europe, but he just can't manage it. It's almost as if he wants the EU and America to become even stronger, but they simply won't allow it...

Bryan Booth82 said:Exactly, and why else... if sanctions don't actually work... is Putin begging for them to be lifted just so they can resume grain shipments or send gas back to Germany?

It's common knowledge that Putin has such a "kind soul," right? But since the West has already branded him an enemy anyway, shouldn't he be insisting on even harsher sanctions... just so he can punish them?

I haven't read a single coherent explanation anywhere that justifies these Putinophile claims about how beneficial sanctions are.
Best,

Russia hasn't just started dealing with sanctions.☕
They've been under official European Union sanctions since 2014. Think about the farmers back in the States who couldn't ship their citrus or melons because of trade restrictions—people were practically giving produce away or throwing it out in frustration. Of course, the taxpayers ended up footing the bill.☕

The funny part? Those same oranges and melons showed up on shelves in Moscow the very next year via middleman importers. Probably will happen again this time. Middlemen will rake in the profits while local producers are forced to sell at low prices despite rising market costs. Once again, the burden falls on the taxpayers.☕

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