Sanctions on Russia

There is absolutely zero chance—none, zilch—that Ukraine is ever joining NATO. Let’s be real here. The US hasn't deployed nuclear weapons to any of the newer NATO members, and they’ve actually pulled almost all their forces back from the eastern flank. Meanwhile, European militaries have just been shrinking and disarming themselves year after year. I honestly don't get this supposed "threat" NATO poses to Russia. Europe has essentially demilitarized itself.

Arthur Miller7 said:I'm with you on that, it's all pretty obvious to me. My question is actually for this group of forum users who are fighting so hard against sanctions. Like, what's the actual alternative here? What was the West supposed to do? That old-school logic about "we need to maintain good relations with Russia" just doesn't cut it anymore. The Russians are blackmailing us. After Ukraine, if they start demanding something else—and let's face it, they will, because why would they stop?—what is the West even supposed to do then? Since you guys are all squawking so much about how things should have been, why don't you come up with those big, grand solutions to bring world peace and keep everyone warm?

The only thing we could've—or should've—done was not to cave from the very start. Look, we're here right now because everyone was too worried about the financial fallout, and now we're right back in the same financial crap. We should have been phasing out Russian energy step-by-step so that when we finally said "enough," we wouldn't be in this pathetic situation. But yeah, easy to say now, right? You can't just flip a switch overnight. If we had started planning nuclear plants and other alternatives earlier, Putin would've seen the writing on the wall and launched his "special operation" way sooner. By being soft on Russia, we basically just made them stronger than they ever were (even back in 2008), while they just kept us on a leash and squeezed us slowly.

You can't have both peace and comfort right now... but hey, we'll see if anyone actually learned anything once the regime in Russia is being dragged through the streets for the second time.

The "original sin" was Western policy in the 90s—specifically the USA. Everything after that just followed that flawed logic... "since Russia is part of the global market now, democracy will naturally follow, making a new dictator impossible."

Totally wrong... at the very least, we should have tried helping them actually become a democracy.

Michael Ortiz68 said:And what exactly happened on January 22nd?

I mean, look at how Macron was over at Putin's place sitting at that massive table on February 7th. It’s not like he didn't realize on the evening of the 6th that he could just pop over to The White House whenever he felt like it for his own little reasons.☕

urbanotter said:It’s been said and written time and time again, but it feels like some people are simply choosing to be deaf and blind to the warnings that were already coming our way.

It never occurred to anyone, much like it hasn't today, to actually sit down and talk with Russia to resolve existing tensions instead of dragging Ukraine into NATO, establishing military bases, and positioning missiles in a way that makes Russia feel threatened.

I remember reading about how when the USSR placed missiles in Cuba, American planes carrying nuclear bombs were already in the air; if an agreement hadn't been reached at the very last second, the world would look very different today.

But I suppose I am just wasting my breath here, and I might as well end up in total "self-isolation" for trying to make sense of it all.

Give me a break. What kind of "dialogue" are we even talking about if he won't budge? Like, seriously—what else does he care about besides having a direct stranglehold on everyone else's politics? What are you even on about? Concessions? Please. Where are the military bases? Where are the missiles? Labs? Viruses? Come on, urbanotter—you finally showed your true colors...

Andrew Booth29 said:If sanctions weren't even on the table, Russia would be charging us whatever they wanted for energy—they’d have us over a barrel. We’ve certainly shot ourselves in the foot a bit here, haven't we? But, looking at the medium term, there's a chance we could eventually offset that lost gas by tapping into other sources. Sure, it might end up being more expensive than what we were paying back in the day, but it would still be significantly cheaper than the inflated prices we're staring down right now. As for how long that transition will actually take... well, that's anyone's guess.
The real issue is that we need to build out entirely new infrastructure from the ground up.

Either way, Germany, France, and the EU aren't going to collapse. Even if things dip, they'll find an alternative.

Russia won't get nearly as much out of China as they would have with Nord Stream 2.

And honestly, what's the point? To annex another slice of Ukraine?

It's a total chess move...

Arthur Miller7 said:Give me a break. What kind of "dialogue" are we even talking about if he won't budge? Like, seriously—what else does he care about besides having a direct stranglehold on everyone else's politics? What are you even on about? Concessions? Please. Where are the military bases? Where are the missiles? Labs? Viruses? Come on, urbanotter—you finally showed your true colors...

He’s probably talking about that missile defense shield the Americans set up back in Romania and Poland in the early 2000s. That was during the Bush era, when he was basically best friends with the V. P. excuse.

The whole excuse was protecting Europe from long-range Iranian missiles, right?! And then there was opening a NATO office in Sevastopol... and then that whole string of color revolutions across the former USSR states, all backed by Soros—or rather, Western intelligence agencies (we had stuff like that too, I guess).

I mean, I think it was pretty obvious to Moscow back then what was being cooked up.

Donna Harris11 said:He’s probably talking about that missile defense shield the Americans set up back in Romania and Poland in the early 2000s. That was during the Bush era, when he was basically best friends with the V. P. excuse.

The whole excuse was protecting Europe from long-range Iranian missiles, right?! And then there was opening a NATO office in Sevastopol... and then that whole string of color revolutions across the former USSR states, all backed by Soros—or rather, Western intelligence agencies (we had stuff like that too, I guess).

I mean, I think it was pretty obvious to Moscow back then what was being cooked up.

Please, enlighten me here—what exactly was being cooked up??

Morgan Morales4 said:I mean, look at how Macron was over at Putin's place sitting at that massive table on February 7th. It’s not like he didn't realize on the evening of the 6th that he could just pop over to The White House whenever he felt like it for his own little reasons.☕

So, let me repeat: what exactly happened on January 22nd?

Arthur Miller7 said:Please, enlighten me here—what exactly was being cooked up??

We're looking at street protests toppling governments and total Balkanization—basically tearing things apart like back in the 90s... I mean, Hillary Clinton or Madeleine Albright practically said it themselves, how unfair it is that Russia has all those massive natural resources

Then there's the whole history of bad blood with the Anglosphere.

Like that armed incident from last year where a super modern US Navy Ship Deliberately Sailed Close to Crimea

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/w...er-crimea.html

US Navy Ship Deliberately Sailed Close to Crimea, US Officials say

Donna Harris11 said:We're looking at street protests toppling governments and total Balkanization—basically tearing things apart like back in the 90s... I mean, Hillary Clinton or Madeleine Albright practically said it themselves, how unfair it is that Russia has all those massive natural resources

Then there's the whole history of bad blood with the Anglosphere.

Like that armed incident from last year where a super modern US Navy Ship Deliberately Sailed Close to Crimea

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/w...er-crimea.html

US Navy Ship Deliberately Sailed Close to Crimea, US Officials say

Oh, sure! Because protests and regime changes are some brand new concept in human history, right? Like they only ever happened at Maidan? Honestly, aren't you guys embarrassed to keep repeating the same tired lines?

But seriously, quick question: did Ukrainians vote in 1991 saying they didn't want to be part of the union with Russia and wanted out of the USSR? Or was that just some master plan cooked up by Americans too?

Michael Ortiz68 said:So, let me repeat: what exactly happened on January 22nd?

Oh, you know, just enough little things to get the ball rolling. Honestly, the history of this conflict doesn't just start with the aggression in February like the West likes to claim. You can't just cherry-pick parts of the story whenever it suits your narrative, you know?

Arthur Miller7 said:I'm with you on that, it's all pretty obvious to me. My question is actually for this group of forum users who are fighting so hard against sanctions. Like, what's the actual alternative here? What was the West supposed to do? That old-school logic about "we need to maintain good relations with Russia" just doesn't cut it anymore. The Russians are blackmailing us. After Ukraine, if they start demanding something else—and let's face it, they will, because why would they stop?—what is the West even supposed to do then? Since you guys are all squawking so much about how things should have been, why don't you come up with those big, grand solutions to bring world peace and keep everyone warm?

The only thing we could've—or should've—done was not to cave from the very start. Look, we're here right now because everyone was too worried about the financial fallout, and now we're right back in the same financial crap. We should have been phasing out Russian energy step-by-step so that when we finally said "enough," we wouldn't be in this pathetic situation. But yeah, easy to say now, right? You can't just flip a switch overnight. If we had started planning nuclear plants and other alternatives earlier, Putin would've seen the writing on the wall and launched his "special operation" way sooner. By being soft on Russia, we basically just made them stronger than they ever were (even back in 2008), while they just kept us on a leash and squeezed us slowly.

There’s no easy answer to this. It’s complicated. The thing we should have reacted to is the result of economic and political moves planned over decades—it's all just layers of power plays and interest groups. Presenting the current situation as some simple black-and-white issue is pretty naive, and so is speculating about what "should" have happened. We shouldn't have become dependent on anyone, but politics isn't a magic wand.
For a quick look at what a guy on a different thread was saying:

- phones are miracles today. Like a real computer—apps, screens, cameras, storage... with my latest Samsung, I don't even carry a camera on trips anymore. I unlock my office door with my phone, pay at the grocery store, read, send emails, pay bills, browse the web, control my water heater, TV, AC at home, the AC in my car, navigate... etc...

Sounds great because of all the perks, sure, but our total reliance on this tech is honestly a bit much. There's nothing left to break that monopoly except some tiny glitch that leaves you completely stranded.
So, come on—tell me what we should have done, or try to prevent every single problem that hasn't even crossed your mind yet. Go ahead, tell me how we could've pivoted early and saved ourselves.

Morgan Morales4 said:Oh, you know, just enough little things to get the ball rolling. Honestly, the history of this conflict doesn't just start with the aggression in February like the West likes to claim. You can't just cherry-pick parts of the story whenever it suits your narrative, you know?

Please... you really missed the mark by getting the start date of the aggression wrong. No big deal, right?

Arthur Miller7 said:I'm with you on that, it's all pretty obvious to me. My question is actually for this group of forum users who are fighting so hard against sanctions. Like, what's the actual alternative here? What was the West supposed to do? That old-school logic about "we need to maintain good relations with Russia" just doesn't cut it anymore. The Russians are blackmailing us. After Ukraine, if they start demanding something else—and let's face it, they will, because why would they stop?—what is the West even supposed to do then? Since you guys are all squawking so much about how things should have been, why don't you come up with those big, grand solutions to bring world peace and keep everyone warm?

The only thing we could've—or should've—done was not to cave from the very start. Look, we're here right now because everyone was too worried about the financial fallout, and now we're right back in the same financial crap. We should have been phasing out Russian energy step-by-step so that when we finally said "enough," we wouldn't be in this pathetic situation. But yeah, easy to say now, right? You can't just flip a switch overnight. If we had started planning nuclear plants and other alternatives earlier, Putin would've seen the writing on the wall and launched his "special operation" way sooner. By being soft on Russia, we basically just made them stronger than they ever were (even back in 2008), while they just kept us on a leash and squeezed us slowly.

There is no other way. Anyone with a memory longer than a goldfish knows that. And just like Roko pointed out, this economic war between Russia and the West didn't just start this year.

Back during those previous two "special operations," Russia responded to political sanctions with massive economic retaliation. They didn't give a damn.

The era of playing nice is over. We need to focus on making sure Ukraine joins the EU once this war is finally finished.

Donna Harris11 said:We're looking at street protests toppling governments and total Balkanization—basically tearing things apart like back in the 90s... I mean, Hillary Clinton or Madeleine Albright practically said it themselves, how unfair it is that Russia has all those massive natural resources

Then there's the whole history of bad blood with the Anglosphere.

Like that armed incident from last year where a super modern US Navy Ship Deliberately Sailed Close to Crimea

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/w...er-crimea.html

US Navy Ship Deliberately Sailed Close to Crimea, US Officials say

Well, looking at what the Russian regime is pulling off right now... it seems like that line of thinking might have actually been spot on.😁
The only way to deal with a state and a regime like Russia's is to dismantle them one way or another, or squeeze them hard enough that they force the change themselves from within. There's nothing inherently wrong with thinking that way; it’s nothing new when you look at how the Russian state and its leadership have behaved throughout history. Honestly, the only fascinating part is how incredibly dim-witted and incompetent they are, constantly tripping over the exact same stones and making the same massive blunders... but hey, when I see the crowd of people here backing them up and hearing the "logic" being used—I'm not even surprised by this level of stupidity.

You know what Forrest said: Stupid is as Stupid Does....
Is there any better way to describe the Russian state and its government? 🤣

I’d try to paint a picture of it like this...

Imagine you’ve got this nasty case of gangrene starting on one of your fingers, and it just keeps creeping up your hand. You try every little pill and ointment you can find to stop it, but nothing works—it just keeps spreading. A few years go by, and now the whole hand is infected, and it's racing toward your elbow
Eventually, you realize life isn't a joke and no amount of doctors or medicine is going to fix this, so you just have to make the tough call and amputate below the elbow.
Sure, in that exact moment, things suck—you’re dealing with the pain and all those immediate side effects. But looking at the big picture? You saved your own life, and you'll get a prosthetic that lets you get back to living a normal, functional life.

That’s pretty much how I’m viewing this whole mess with the Russia sanctions. Yeah, we’re going to feel the sting while the energy situation stabilizes, but honestly, any other alternative would have been way worse in the long run. 😬

Just to add a little more flair to the metaphor: you don't untie Gordian knots, you just cut right through them.

Topic is "Russia sanctions" ☕

It’s funny how the Kremlin sycophants collectively decided to ignore my post about how Russian GDP has tanked by 40% when measured in rubles due to sanctions.
Facts clearly don't matter to them—they just want to hear the same tired nonsense over and over, like a broken record. :doubleslap:

Brenda Murphy3 said:Well, looking at what the Russian regime is pulling off right now... it seems like that line of thinking might have actually been spot on.😁
The only way to deal with a state and a regime like Russia's is to dismantle them one way or another, or squeeze them hard enough that they force the change themselves from within. There's nothing inherently wrong with thinking that way; it’s nothing new when you look at how the Russian state and its leadership have behaved throughout history. Honestly, the only fascinating part is how incredibly dim-witted and incompetent they are, constantly tripping over the exact same stones and making the same massive blunders... but hey, when I see the crowd of people here backing them up and hearing the "logic" being used—I'm not even surprised by this level of stupidity.

You know what Forrest said: Stupid is as Stupid Does....
Is there any better way to describe the Russian state and its government? 🤣

The West just doesn't have the guts to actually take Russia apart.

Honestly, we just need to cut ties with that regime. Minimize everything. Stop giving them any oxygen until they finally figure themselves out and change on their own.

The Russian people need to sit down and really think about this one. They gotta decide if holding onto Izium and Kherson is actually worth more than having decent relationships with the rest of the world. It’s a big call.

Nathan Thomas12 said:It’s funny how the Kremlin sycophants collectively decided to ignore my post about how Russian GDP has tanked by 40% when measured in rubles due to sanctions.
Facts clearly don't matter to them—they just want to hear the same tired nonsense over and over, like a broken record. :doubleslap:

In an autocratic state, any decline in the standard of living is far easier for the citizens to swallow—and tolerate—than it would ever be in a democracy.

That's essentially a form of political immunity that shields such regimes from total collapse.