Living with masked depression

Hi everyone,

I’ve been in therapy for five years now—I don't have a formal diagnosis, but that doesn't mean my head isn't a chaotic place. On the contrary. For a long time, I've dealt with persistent anxiety and depressive symptoms.

Things took a turn for the worse during the COVID lockdowns—likely due to the general isolation—and my symptoms flared up significantly. On top of all that, I struggle with health anxiety, which is really what I want to focus on right now...

Here’s the situation: I have existing health issues (primarily spinal issues) that cause chronic pain, which I believe heavily impacts my mood and depression. However, lately, I've been experiencing pains in that same area that feel fundamentally different from anything I've felt before. My psychiatrist believes these pains—and my overall mood—are being driven by a massive spike in depression, and he's suggesting medication. I’ve never taken anything before, so I'm feeling very cautious—skeptical, even—about whether I should start this path.

The biggest mental block for me is simply not being able to wrap my head around the idea that depression could actually cause this kind of physical pain. The depression is a certainty, but I'm stuck in a "chicken or the egg" loop. I'm terrified that there's an underlying physical issue—maybe something like an autoimmune disorder—causing the pain, which then triggers the depression, rather than the other way around.
Has anyone else dealt with this?
Specifically, those with significant physical symptoms: constant aches similar to rheumatoid arthritis, tingling, stomach issues, etc.

Donna Sanchez5 said:Hi everyone,

I’ve been in therapy for five years now—I don't have a formal diagnosis, but that doesn't mean my head isn't a chaotic place. On the contrary. For a long time, I've dealt with persistent anxiety and depressive symptoms.

Things took a turn for the worse during the COVID lockdowns—likely due to the general isolation—and my symptoms flared up significantly. On top of all that, I struggle with health anxiety, which is really what I want to focus on right now...

Here’s the situation: I have existing health issues (primarily spinal issues) that cause chronic pain, which I believe heavily impacts my mood and depression. However, lately, I've been experiencing pains in that same area that feel fundamentally different from anything I've felt before. My psychiatrist believes these pains—and my overall mood—are being driven by a massive spike in depression, and he's suggesting medication. I’ve never taken anything before, so I'm feeling very cautious—skeptical, even—about whether I should start this path.

The biggest mental block for me is simply not being able to wrap my head around the idea that depression could actually cause this kind of physical pain. The depression is a certainty, but I'm stuck in a "chicken or the egg" loop. I'm terrified that there's an underlying physical issue—maybe something like an autoimmune disorder—causing the pain, which then triggers the depression, rather than the other way around.
Has anyone else dealt with this?
Specifically, those with significant physical symptoms: constant aches similar to rheumatoid arthritis, tingling, stomach issues, etc.

Where exactly are you feeling this pain? Does the tingling occur when you take rapid, deep breaths during an anxiety attack? Or does it persist constantly, regardless of your breathing or mood? Is the stomach pain continuous, or does it flare up during meals or when you are hungry? Could you describe the spinal pain in more detail? Which part of the spine? Could it perhaps be your neck? Do you experience pain in your arms or hands? In what specific ways has your current state worsened compared to how things used to be?

Anyone else dealing with tingling in their hands?

driftingdrifter4 said:Where exactly are you feeling this pain? Does the tingling occur when you take rapid, deep breaths during an anxiety attack? Or does it persist constantly, regardless of your breathing or mood? Is the stomach pain continuous, or does it flare up during meals or when you are hungry? Could you describe the spinal pain in more detail? Which part of the spine? Could it perhaps be your neck? Do you experience pain in your arms or hands? In what specific ways has your current state worsened compared to how things used to be?

I'm dealing with a herniated disc—at least that's what the MRI shows. Some neurosurgeons have even suggested surgery for it. But the real issue for me is this dull, nagging back pain; it isn't your typical sciatica. I don't have any mobility issues—I can move just fine—but the pain is constant. Honestly, I feel like I'm 80 years old, even though I'm only 42. 🙂
The fatigue is relentless; my energy levels are basically zero.

The pain is most prominent in my lower back—the lumbar region. It’s constant there, though it occasionally radiates up toward my upper back—I suspect the anxiety plays a role by tightening up my muscles.
I don't experience anxiety attacks the way people usually describe them—that "I'm going to die in a second" sensation. For me, it's more like my stress levels just spike; I become incredibly jittery, nervous, and then fearful because of everything happening to me.
The tingling isn't sciatic either—it doesn't shoot down my entire leg—but rather manifests as a burning or tingling sensation in the soles of my feet. It can get quite intense, which only fuels my anxiety further.

No pain in my hands or arms.
As for my stomach, I have gastritis, and there isn't a specific pattern regarding eating or fasting. There is a clear parallel, though—when my anxiety and depression ramp up, the physical symptoms intensify.

My current condition has worsened in terms of both intensity and duration. It used to pass eventually; now, it lasts all day long.

Donna Sanchez5 said:Hi everyone,

I’ve been in therapy for five years now—I don't have a formal diagnosis, but that doesn't mean my head isn't a chaotic place. On the contrary. For a long time, I've dealt with persistent anxiety and depressive symptoms.

Things took a turn for the worse during the COVID lockdowns—likely due to the general isolation—and my symptoms flared up significantly. On top of all that, I struggle with health anxiety, which is really what I want to focus on right now...

Here’s the situation: I have existing health issues (primarily spinal issues) that cause chronic pain, which I believe heavily impacts my mood and depression. However, lately, I've been experiencing pains in that same area that feel fundamentally different from anything I've felt before. My psychiatrist believes these pains—and my overall mood—are being driven by a massive spike in depression, and he's suggesting medication. I’ve never taken anything before, so I'm feeling very cautious—skeptical, even—about whether I should start this path.

The biggest mental block for me is simply not being able to wrap my head around the idea that depression could actually cause this kind of physical pain. The depression is a certainty, but I'm stuck in a "chicken or the egg" loop. I'm terrified that there's an underlying physical issue—maybe something like an autoimmune disorder—causing the pain, which then triggers the depression, rather than the other way around.
Has anyone else dealt with this?
Specifically, those with significant physical symptoms: constant aches similar to rheumatoid arthritis, tingling, stomach issues, etc.

Look, I can't say for sure if your mental and physical symptoms are linked or not, but if I were you, I’d try to tackle them as two separate battles at first. Just test out different things for each side independently.

I’ve been on meds for anxiety and depression for several years now, and honestly? I am all about it. For years, I tried to white-knuckle it through everything without help. I went through tons of talk therapy—which I totally swear by, by the way. I don't go every single week, but every once in a while, I need a few hours or a couple of months of it. It works wonders.

But the medication? It saved me. It leveled me out and kept me balanced. It’s basically my life jacket keeping my head above water. That doesn't mean I don't have bad days or panic attacks every now and then—life still happens and personal trauma still hits hard—but the difference between being on pills versus being off them is night and day. Everything feels so much lighter.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do! Keep us posted.

You should really check out Dr. Sarna’s book, *How to Heal Your Back Pain*.

He talks specifically about this phenomenon you're experiencing. He’s a physiatrist who spent his career seeing piles of patients with lumbar spine issues who weren't actually feeling any pain—even though, according to everything we know about science, they absolutely should have been. He eventually concluded that it all ties back to one thing: emotions and stress.

What you mentioned about your condition getting worse whenever you're stressed is a textbook example.

Basically, when stress levels spike in the body, things like the bile ducts and other fluid-carrying pathways tighten up, and that’s what triggers the actual physical pain.

And that stomach pain you're dealing with? That's also classic for depression, because we tend to process and hold onto almost all our emotions in our gut first.

So, how are you handling stress right now? Are you working through this with a therapist?

Have you guys touched on any repressed stressful events from your childhood yet?

Personally, I’m against taking pills. After reading through so many different experiences—and not just the positive ones—I’d suggest looking up "SSRI syndrome" on Google. There is just no way I would ever put something like that into my system.

But hey, I know they've helped some people, so everyone has to make their own choice.

Also, along with psychotherapy, maybe try bioenergetics? It sounds like you might have some energetic blockages throughout your body.

The pandemic hit most people pretty hard, and if you were already struggling with mental health issues before it started, it's obvious why things got worse. We're all just absorbing this collective stress, the uncertainty, the doubt about whether things will ever get better, and all those obsessive thoughts swirling around us. We're basically fertile ground for picking up that shared anxiety.

But first, please read Dr. Sarna. I truly believe it will give you some answers to what you're asking. There’s a version available to download, but I can send it to you if you want.

I managed to get rid of my own lower back pain. Mostly through 😁 but I don't deal with those physical symptoms anymore—the fatigue, the hypochondria, the body aches, the paranoia. Those are all very real symptoms for someone dealing with depression.

Nancy Cook17 said:Look, I can't say for sure if your mental and physical symptoms are linked or not, but if I were you, I’d try to tackle them as two separate battles at first. Just test out different things for each side independently.

I’ve been on meds for anxiety and depression for several years now, and honestly? I am all about it. For years, I tried to white-knuckle it through everything without help. I went through tons of talk therapy—which I totally swear by, by the way. I don't go every single week, but every once in a while, I need a few hours or a couple of months of it. It works wonders.

But the medication? It saved me. It leveled me out and kept me balanced. It’s basically my life jacket keeping my head above water. That doesn't mean I don't have bad days or panic attacks every now and then—life still happens and personal trauma still hits hard—but the difference between being on pills versus being off them is night and day. Everything feels so much lighter.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do! Keep us posted.

The thing is, everything is connected. You just can't untangle the mind from the body. I mean, sure, if you break your leg, that’s a different story—that wouldn't have much to do with your headspace.

But generally speaking, the body and the psyche go hand in hand. We don't live our lives split in two, even though society tries its hardest to convince us otherwise. People act like you can just pop a pill and suddenly everything is magically fixed. It doesn't work like that.

We are human beings, complete with hopes, fears, and all sorts of complex emotions. To claim that all of that has no impact on physical health is basically just burying your head in the sand.

Another point to consider is that we should all be taking personal responsibility for our own health. But let's be honest, most people don't want to do that. They don't want to put in the effort to educate themselves or stay informed. It’s just easier to rely on a pill.

To me, your symptoms point toward an orthopedic or neurological issue rather than anything psychological. Aside from the fatigue and stomach issues, everything else doesn't quite fit. Mental health struggles usually manifest through more vague, subtle symptoms than what you're describing. I suspect there might be something physically occurring in your lower spine.

My advice is to visit your primary care physician and describe your symptoms—specifically the pain in your lumbar region and your feet—exactly as you have laid them out here. Tell them the pain has intensified and that you are experiencing new sensations that haven't occurred before. Crucially, do not lead with or suggest that this is related to depression. Doctors in the US are incredibly overworked; they often have less than five minutes per patient and are frequently eager to dismiss patients who attempt to self-diagnose their issues as stress or depression. If you suggest it's psychological, the doctor will likely just chalk it up to stress to wrap up the appointment quickly, rather than asking follow-up questions or ordering blood work.

Furthermore, exhaustion without an obvious external cause (other than depression) can sometimes indicate hypothyroidism, anemia, or hypocalcemia. Lower back pain can stem from various sources, such as herniated discs or spinal degeneration, but it can also be linked to prostate issues (do you experience frequent nighttime urination or any issues with ejaculation?).

Vague bone pain can also be a symptom of hypo- or hypercalcemia. Hypocalcemia, specifically, is characterized by a triad of symptoms: exhaustion, paresthesia (tingling sensations), and anxiety.

Therefore, my recommendation is to present your physical symptoms to your doctor clearly, without attributing them to mental health or stress. Request a full blood panel that includes thyroid hormones, hemoglobin, calcium levels, and a PSA test. A follow-up X-ray or CT scan of your spine would also be prudent. Only if all those clinical indicators come back normal should you consider the possibility that it is purely psychological.

For a long time, I was dealing with a masked depression without even realizing what was actually happening to me.
It manifested entirely through physical symptoms—I dealt with such relentless, daily back pain that
I would find myself collapsed on the floor, desperately searching for some kind of position that might offer relief, all while struggling to catch my breath due to constant abdominal cramping.
However, after just ten days on Lexapro, an SSRI, every single one of those symptoms simply vanished as if they had never existed. I found it difficult to believe.

redranger2 said:For a long time, I was dealing with a masked depression without even realizing what was actually happening to me.
It manifested entirely through physical symptoms—I dealt with such relentless, daily back pain that
I would find myself collapsed on the floor, desperately searching for some kind of position that might offer relief, all while struggling to catch my breath due to constant abdominal cramping.
However, after just ten days on Lexapro, an SSRI, every single one of those symptoms simply vanished as if they had never existed. I found it difficult to believe.

How long were you dealing with these issues before starting medication?
And if you don't mind me asking, are you still on the meds, and did the symptoms return once you stopped?

Was it strictly physical symptoms, or did you feel them emotionally too?

driftingdrifter4 said:To me, your symptoms point toward an orthopedic or neurological issue rather than anything psychological. Aside from the fatigue and stomach issues, everything else doesn't quite fit. Mental health struggles usually manifest through more vague, subtle symptoms than what you're describing. I suspect there might be something physically occurring in your lower spine.

My advice is to visit your primary care physician and describe your symptoms—specifically the pain in your lumbar region and your feet—exactly as you have laid them out here. Tell them the pain has intensified and that you are experiencing new sensations that haven't occurred before. Crucially, do not lead with or suggest that this is related to depression. Doctors in the US are incredibly overworked; they often have less than five minutes per patient and are frequently eager to dismiss patients who attempt to self-diagnose their issues as stress or depression. If you suggest it's psychological, the doctor will likely just chalk it up to stress to wrap up the appointment quickly, rather than asking follow-up questions or ordering blood work.

Furthermore, exhaustion without an obvious external cause (other than depression) can sometimes indicate hypothyroidism, anemia, or hypocalcemia. Lower back pain can stem from various sources, such as herniated discs or spinal degeneration, but it can also be linked to prostate issues (do you experience frequent nighttime urination or any issues with ejaculation?).

Vague bone pain can also be a symptom of hypo- or hypercalcemia. Hypocalcemia, specifically, is characterized by a triad of symptoms: exhaustion, paresthesia (tingling sensations), and anxiety.

Therefore, my recommendation is to present your physical symptoms to your doctor clearly, without attributing them to mental health or stress. Request a full blood panel that includes thyroid hormones, hemoglobin, calcium levels, and a PSA test. A follow-up X-ray or CT scan of your spine would also be prudent. Only if all those clinical indicators come back normal should you consider the possibility that it is purely psychological.

I’ve had a full thyroid workup—hormones, ultrasound, the whole nine yards—and everything looks fine.
As for anemia, my iron levels were borderline low a few months ago (all these symptoms were already present then)—I was told that was due to gastritis.
Calcium is at the very top end of the range, but still within normal limits.
PSA and prostate ultrasound are both fine.
My hemoglobin is right at the bottom edge of normal.

The issue I'm wrestling with is that even if I start an SSRI or SNRI, they might dull the pain through their mechanism, but that doesn't actually solve the underlying physical problem if one exists.

driftingdrifter4 said:To me, your symptoms point toward an orthopedic or neurological issue rather than anything psychological. Aside from the fatigue and stomach issues, everything else doesn't quite fit. Mental health struggles usually manifest through more vague, subtle symptoms than what you're describing. I suspect there might be something physically occurring in your lower spine.

My advice is to visit your primary care physician and describe your symptoms—specifically the pain in your lumbar region and your feet—exactly as you have laid them out here. Tell them the pain has intensified and that you are experiencing new sensations that haven't occurred before. Crucially, do not lead with or suggest that this is related to depression. Doctors in the US are incredibly overworked; they often have less than five minutes per patient and are frequently eager to dismiss patients who attempt to self-diagnose their issues as stress or depression. If you suggest it's psychological, the doctor will likely just chalk it up to stress to wrap up the appointment quickly, rather than asking follow-up questions or ordering blood work.

Furthermore, exhaustion without an obvious external cause (other than depression) can sometimes indicate hypothyroidism, anemia, or hypocalcemia. Lower back pain can stem from various sources, such as herniated discs or spinal degeneration, but it can also be linked to prostate issues (do you experience frequent nighttime urination or any issues with ejaculation?).

Vague bone pain can also be a symptom of hypo- or hypercalcemia. Hypocalcemia, specifically, is characterized by a triad of symptoms: exhaustion, paresthesia (tingling sensations), and anxiety.

Therefore, my recommendation is to present your physical symptoms to your doctor clearly, without attributing them to mental health or stress. Request a full blood panel that includes thyroid hormones, hemoglobin, calcium levels, and a PSA test. A follow-up X-ray or CT scan of your spine would also be prudent. Only if all those clinical indicators come back normal should you consider the possibility that it is purely psychological.

Same here.

Donna Sanchez5 said:How long were you dealing with these issues before starting medication?
And if you don't mind me asking, are you still on the meds, and did the symptoms return once you stopped?

Was it strictly physical symptoms, or did you feel them emotionally too?

I’ve had a full thyroid workup—hormones, ultrasound, the whole nine yards—and everything looks fine.
As for anemia, my iron levels were borderline low a few months ago (all these symptoms were already present then)—I was told that was due to gastritis.
Calcium is at the very top end of the range, but still within normal limits.
PSA and prostate ultrasound are both fine.
My hemoglobin is right at the bottom edge of normal.

The issue I'm wrestling with is that even if I start an SSRI or SNRI, they might dull the pain through their mechanism, but that doesn't actually solve the underlying physical problem if one exists.

Actually, SSRIs don't touch the pain itself.

I don't know if you're just dealing with a mental health thing, but I went through the exact same thing. For me, it turned out to be my hormones messing everything up. I went to my doctor and laid out all the symptoms—brain fog, zero energy, non-existent libido, blah blah blah. She just prescribed me an SSRI, which didn't do a damn thing. I eventually just accepted that I had no drive and felt fine just lying around all day. Later on, I finally saw an endocrinologist... and it was the same old story: "Take some vitamins, maybe exercise a bit more," blah blah. So, I started doing my own hormone therapy, and suddenly all those depressive symptoms just vanished. If the root cause isn't mental, then getting put on an SSRI doesn't mean much; it won't fix anything. Doctors love pushing antidepressants, but if it's not a mental issue, taking them is basically like using recreational drugs for nothing. I get that it's hard to admit to yourself that you have depression, but if you feel like it's something else, it might be worth looking into. Personally, I just "knew"—well, more like I could feel—that it wasn't purely psychological.

Nancy Cook17 said:Actually, SSRIs don't touch the pain itself.

I'm not so sure—I've come across plenty of studies suggesting they actually do impact physical pain perception.

As for recreational drugs, I don't know—it seems to me that SSRIs are a much more serious matter than that.🙂

To be honest, I'm at a loss for what else to test for...
My primary care physician is completely useless—she can prescribe an antibiotic, and that’s about it.
I've had to pay out of pocket for most of my lab work.

Are you feeling depressed? Why not Google the symptoms and see how many apply to you?
For me, depression always started as a sharp, physical ache in my throat, which then spread down past my heart and sometimes even into my spine.

If your mental state feels fine and your only issue is spinal pain, it is likely something else entirely.

Carl Cox3 said:Are you feeling depressed? Why not Google the symptoms and see how many apply to you?
For me, depression always started as a sharp, physical ache in my throat, which then spread down past my heart and sometimes even into my spine.

If your mental state feels fine and your only issue is spinal pain, it is likely something else entirely.

Exactly. I'm saying I deal with serious anxiety and depressive episodes—but the real struggle is the "chicken or the egg" scenario. I can't tell if these physical symptoms and my inability to get things done like I used to are driving my fear of the future and illness, or if the depression itself is manifesting as these physical pains.

Donna Sanchez5 said:I'm not so sure—I've come across plenty of studies suggesting they actually do impact physical pain perception.

As for recreational drugs, I don't know—it seems to me that SSRIs are a much more serious matter than that.🙂

To be honest, I'm at a loss for what else to test for...
My primary care physician is completely useless—she can prescribe an antibiotic, and that’s about it.
I've had to pay out of pocket for most of my lab work.

I feel you. 🙂.
Even my own doctor was messing with me when I tried to get a referral for a specialist, I guess.
So I ended up footing the whole bill myself in the end. Everything from the bloodwork to those specialists... it was all on me.
Man, I guess even I'm playing doctor now. 😁.
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here, or like, what specific markers you were actually looking for when you had your blood drawn.
I mean, they probably have some kind of markers that could point to something if it's like an autoimmune thing, I guess.

Look, I’m just trying to tell you that maybe this isn't even a mental health thing, I guess.
What kind of symptoms are you actually getting? I guess it would probably feel similar, though an SSRI isn't going to hit you nearly as hard or fast as whatever stuff you'd end up taking at a party. 😁It’s just running away from your problems, I guess. For me, my symptoms were all about hormones, and honestly, throwing SSRIs or recreational stuff at them felt like the exact same thing. Like, sure, you're high and feeling good, but deep down you still know something isn't right.
That’s exactly why stuff like stimulants and opioids is such a total mess. You’re basically getting that hit of reward hormones without actually doing anything to earn it, I guess.

I guess everything going on right now has definitely hit us all pretty hard, so we’re all feeling way more down than usual, maybe.

mistynomad12 said:I feel you. 🙂.
Even my own doctor was messing with me when I tried to get a referral for a specialist, I guess.
So I ended up footing the whole bill myself in the end. Everything from the bloodwork to those specialists... it was all on me.
Man, I guess even I'm playing doctor now. 😁.
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here, or like, what specific markers you were actually looking for when you had your blood drawn.
I mean, they probably have some kind of markers that could point to something if it's like an autoimmune thing, I guess.

Look, I’m just trying to tell you that maybe this isn't even a mental health thing, I guess.
What kind of symptoms are you actually getting? I guess it would probably feel similar, though an SSRI isn't going to hit you nearly as hard or fast as whatever stuff you'd end up taking at a party. 😁It’s just running away from your problems, I guess. For me, my symptoms were all about hormones, and honestly, throwing SSRIs or recreational stuff at them felt like the exact same thing. Like, sure, you're high and feeling good, but deep down you still know something isn't right.
That’s exactly why stuff like stimulants and opioids is such a total mess. You’re basically getting that hit of reward hormones without actually doing anything to earn it, I guess.

I guess everything going on right now has definitely hit us all pretty hard, so we’re all feeling way more down than usual, maybe.

I hear you, thanks.🙂

I've been stuck in this state for months now.
I’ve also developed tinnitus over the last few months—likely stress-induced, because this whole situation has been incredibly unsettling. I've never dealt with that before.
Right now, I'm just lying in bed with back pain. It isn't paralyzing, but it's that nagging, persistent kind of ache—enough to make my daily life a significant struggle.
And yes, I feel depressed. Deeply depressed.
It feels pointless.
And anxious. Because I have no idea what's happening. I'm terrified that I have some underlying illness. Maybe it’s physical, maybe it’s psychological. But it's an illness regardless—because feeling like this is definitely not normal.

Look, if a psychiatrist recommends medication, why fight it? I spent years dodging them just like you, which only leads to people asking why you’re running away from treatment. Over an eight-year span, my experience was a cycle: two years on, one year off, then back to two years on. I’ve been clean for three years now. My advice? Give the meds a shot first, then evaluate how your symptoms actually respond.

Tyler Price53 said:Look, if a psychiatrist recommends medication, why fight it? I spent years dodging them just like you, which only leads to people asking why you’re running away from treatment. Over an eight-year span, my experience was a cycle: two years on, one year off, then back to two years on. I’ve been clean for three years now. My advice? Give the meds a shot first, then evaluate how your symptoms actually respond.

Honestly? Because I'm terrified.
The idea of taking something scares me—mostly because of how wildly different people's experiences are. You hear about people for whom it was a lifesaver, and then you hear about those for whom it made everything significantly worse.
My whole life is built on science... hard, exact science. From my perspective, taking these drugs feels like playing Russian roulette. We are talking about medications where, even today, there isn't a crystal-clear definition of the exact mechanism by which they treat the illness. They work—somehow—but we don't know exactly *how* with 100% certainty. And God knows what else they are doing to the body.
A simple example—why do so many people gain weight? It's because the drugs directly block certain biological processes; the weight gain is just a consequence. I'm not worried about the scale personally, I'm just using it as a practical illustration.

And I'm even more hesitant about the possibility of masking an underlying physical ailment with antidepressants.

I have studied depression extensively. As of today, we still don't truly understand why it occurs...
Is it an autoimmune disorder of the brain?
Is it a metabolic disease?
Is it a genetic condition that flares up due to epigenetic triggers?
We don't know...
Just because a psychiatrist suggests something doesn't mean I take it as gospel. Look—there was a time when psychiatrists were actually recommending lobotomies to patients. That doesn't mean someone won't look back at today's treatments fifty years from now with a smirk. 🙂
I get that I might be overthinking it, but this isn't simple—and that's why I'm uncertain.