Who's going to do the dirty work in Utopia?

Thomas Nelson25 said:Yeah, that could definitely be a topic.

Native Americans?

The Chief and the wizard are debating this—but at the end of the day, myth (belief) drives behavior, or more specifically in this case, morality.

..
Back in the day, the church handled it (if you consider that "civilized"?), but now we just have our federal courts. Laws.

At the end of the day, isn't it all just different ways that the "universal spirit" manifests itself?

Gerald Jackson48 said:Oversimplifying phenomena isn't some minor issue. It's actually pretty dangerous when people try to organize large societies based on those flawed models. That's what happens when you start picking anecdotes over hard, empirical data.

Plus, you can't shape technology that hasn't even been invented yet.

The late Prof. Fulgosi from the Department of Psychology at the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences had this interesting saying—or at least people attribute it to him. To paraphrase: "If an average shipbuilder knew as much about shipbuilding as the average psychologist knows about psychology, every ship they built would sink."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the idea of a utopia. I'm just skeptical about trying to pull it off "right here, right now, on shaky ground." Honestly, I'd rather be a realist and side with the "wait five hundred years" crowd.

Oversimplifying complex issues isn't trivial, and it's actually pretty dangerous when people try to run entire societies based on those kinds of models. It happens whenever anecdotal nonsense gets prioritized over actual empirical data.
Obviously... I've been emphasizing that bolded part the whole time.
There’s a massive difference between talking about the hurdles of building a tiny little community—one where people join voluntarily or even build it from scratch with their own rules and "constitution"—versus dealing with political entities (all the way up to global ones).

For political groups, it makes sense to act "protopically"—basically making incremental improvements while paying attention to feedback and letting the people whose lives are being changed actually participate.

A more radical approach works in small groups, though I'm not trying to romanticize them... there were groups like Jim Jones's "Temple of the People" that ended in mass suicide.
Maybe my comment about "people finding a way" makes it sound like I think life in these communities is easy... it's not. Not at all.

You can't shape technology that doesn't even exist yet.

True, but I meant pulling the right tech from the "pool" of existing knowledge and then tweaking it later if needed.

Category:Sustainable technologies

The late Prof. Fulgosi from the Department of Psychology at the University of California had a cool saying (or so I heard), paraphrased: "If an average shipbuilder knew as much about shipbuilding as an average psychologist knows about psychology, every single one of his ships would sink."

Makes sense... maybe psychologists just bank on the fact that humans have the ability to "patch the holes in their own souls" themselves, and they're just there to help out.😁
Just kidding—people are way more complicated than a damn ship... sometimes things are dead simple, and other times helping is basically impossible.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the idea of a utopia, but I'm incredibly skeptical about trying to force it into existence "right here, right now, based on nothing concrete." Honestly, I'd rather be an anti-slacker and stick to the "wait 500 years" camp.

I hear you, we're actually on the same page... again, the last thing I want is some "global leap into the dark."
If that happens, there's zero room for error—and millions of people end up footing the bill.
Once—labeled in history textbooks as "humanity's greatest experiment"—it happened once and never again... based on what people are saying on this forum, that whole mess from a century ago still haunts the collective subconscious as a "fear of utopia."

I did a little digging into it, and the warnings are pretty intense—especially coming from the people who were dreaming of getting rid of the monarchy and "birthing a new world" right up until the revolution hit.
As soon as they caught a glimpse of what was actually coming... they regretted everything. But by then, it was too late.

gentlerider7 said:I mean, honestly, this whole "Golden Age" myth pops up in pretty much every culture on the planet, right? And let's be real, there’s probably a damn good reason why everyone keeps telling the same story.

I’ve always seen the whole "golden age" myth as a sort of reverse utopia—basically, we take that idealized version of the past and try to project it onto the future as if it's something we can actually reach.

gentlerider7 said:At the end of the day, isn't it all just different ways that the "universal spirit" manifests itself?

Sure, if you want to look at it that way... but anyway—back to the main point from before.

What actually counts as civilized, though?

Most people spend their early years living in some kind of sheltered utopia—it’s essentially a symptom of youth. But eventually, we all get kicked out of that bubble, don't we? Suddenly, you're left to fend for yourself in the real world. The problem is, we tend to try and project those outdated, idealistic standards onto a future that simply doesn't care about them.

So, are we saying communists and anarchists are just infant neurotics? 😁

Hold up—is having actual ideals even a bad thing in today's world? (Though I’d probably call it weird or just a total outlier)

Thomas Nelson25 said:So, are we saying communists and anarchists are just infant neurotics? 😁

Hold up—is having actual ideals even a bad thing in today's world? (Though I’d probably call it weird or just a total outlier)

Why limit it to them? You could say the exact same thing about religious zealots or pretty much any other group out there... It seems to be a universal human trait, doesn't it?

Regarding these "ideals"—they’re actually quite a burden. The goals a person sets for themselves really ought to be measurable and attainable. Abstract, impossible objectives often serve as nothing more than an excuse for doing absolutely nothing. That said, occasionally it helps to aim for something out of reach; sometimes, you actually manage to hit the mark. 😬

Andrew Booth29 said:Why limit it to them? You could say the exact same thing about religious zealots or pretty much any other group out there... It seems to be a universal human trait, doesn't it?

Regarding these "ideals"—they’re actually quite a burden. The goals a person sets for themselves really ought to be measurable and attainable. Abstract, impossible objectives often serve as nothing more than an excuse for doing absolutely nothing. That said, occasionally it helps to aim for something out of reach; sometimes, you actually manage to hit the mark. 😬

"Shoot for the moon; even if you miss, you'll find yourself among the stars."

Andrew Booth29 said:Why limit it to them? You could say the exact same thing about religious zealots or pretty much any other group out there... It seems to be a universal human trait, doesn't it?

Regarding these "ideals"—they’re actually quite a burden. The goals a person sets for themselves really ought to be measurable and attainable. Abstract, impossible objectives often serve as nothing more than an excuse for doing absolutely nothing. That said, occasionally it helps to aim for something out of reach; sometimes, you actually manage to hit the mark. 😬

Ah, goals....
How outdated... how naive... and how incredibly tedious. 🥱

I suggest starting with The Preacher.

Andrew Booth29 said:Why limit it to them? You could say the exact same thing about religious zealots or pretty much any other group out there... It seems to be a universal human trait, doesn't it?

Regarding these "ideals"—they’re actually quite a burden. The goals a person sets for themselves really ought to be measurable and attainable. Abstract, impossible objectives often serve as nothing more than an excuse for doing absolutely nothing. That said, occasionally it helps to aim for something out of reach; sometimes, you actually manage to hit the mark. 😬

The absolute worst part is when people use those vague, impossible ideals to justify shitty behavior.