Who's going to do the dirty work in Utopia?

gentlerider7 said:When people pitch these utopian ideas, they're basically banking on the assumption that most folks just want more of the exact same stuff we already have. They act like there are these set-in-stone, objective benchmarks for what actually counts as "good."

If that were true, we wouldn't need architects or planners at all; we’d just vote on stuff and call it a day. Most people don't want the same things because we aren't clones, and there is no such thing as an objective metric for "good"—that's entirely subjective. We manage by making compromises, however messy they might be, and that's basically how society functions.

Sam Martinez9 said:To those who lived 500 or even 1,000 years ago—we are nothing more than a utopian dream.

No, that's not it at all... From their point of view, the actual utopia existed maybe 5,000 or 6,000 years ago, but we got kicked out because we completely botched the dirty work.

Ethan Gomez82 said:If that were true, we wouldn't need architects or planners at all; we’d just vote on stuff and call it a day. Most people don't want the same things because we aren't clones, and there is no such thing as an objective metric for "good"—that's entirely subjective. We manage by making compromises, however messy they might be, and that's basically how society functions.

But come on, most societies in America can at least agree on the basics, can't they? Like, we generally all agree that things like robbery, murder, and total chaos are bad news.

Harold Doyle3 said:No, that's not it at all... From their point of view, the actual utopia existed maybe 5,000 or 6,000 years ago, but we got kicked out because we completely botched the dirty work.

That was back when you’d just toss a bone over your shoulder. Then someone suddenly decided it actually needed to be put in a bin out front. 😁

Harold Doyle3 said:No, that's not it at all... From their point of view, the actual utopia existed maybe 5,000 or 6,000 years ago, but we got kicked out because we completely botched the dirty work.

I mean, honestly, this whole "Golden Age" myth pops up in pretty much every culture on the planet, right? And let's be real, there’s probably a damn good reason why everyone keeps telling the same story.

Ethan Gomez82 said:Not happening in my case. I’m strictly against that idea. 😁

Total rebel!

gentlerider7 said:I mean, honestly, this whole "Golden Age" myth pops up in pretty much every culture on the planet, right? And let's be real, there’s probably a damn good reason why everyone keeps telling the same story.

It’s the same reason we dream about future utopias—just a basic need to escape into our own imaginations.

Harold Doyle3 said:Total rebel!

Even worse—he just went ahead and vaccinated.😲

bluemason3 said:It’s the same reason we dream about future utopias—just a basic need to escape into our own imaginations.

But honestly, it comes before the need for things to just be normal again, right? I mean, when someone starts daydreaming about some perfect paradise, isn't that just a massive red flag that everything in their actual life is falling apart?

gentlerider7 said:But honestly, it comes before the need for things to just be normal again, right? I mean, when someone starts daydreaming about some perfect paradise, isn't that just a massive red flag that everything in their actual life is falling apart?

Honestly, it sounds more like someone who can't handle reality—a failure escaping into a fantasy world. I doubt Bezos or Ronaldo spend much time worrying about utopias.

Ethan Gomez82 said:That was back when you’d just toss a bone over your shoulder. Then someone suddenly decided it actually needed to be put in a bin out front. 😁

I don't think it's about some stray bone. Honestly? I think someone just decided to take a dump anywhere instead of using the designated spot—you know, the old "nature calls wherever" philosophy. And then, predictably, someone stepped in it. That's where the real mess starts. It's basically the prehistoric version of asking, "Who's going to clean up this crap?"

bluemason3 said:Honestly, it sounds more like someone who can't handle reality—a failure escaping into a fantasy world. I doubt Bezos or Ronaldo spend much time worrying about utopias.

Honestly, who cares if someone is happy or satisfied? People can be content in a gutter for all I care, but being "satisfied" doesn't mean a damn thing—what actually matters is who’s actually telling the truth.

gentlerider7 said:Honestly, who cares if someone is happy or satisfied? People can be content in a gutter for all I care, but being "satisfied" doesn't mean a damn thing—what actually matters is who’s actually telling the truth.

We aren't dealing with hard sciences here. This is more like juggling concepts, fantasies, and projections. Talking about "the truth" feels a bit pointless.

bluemason3 said:We aren't dealing with hard sciences here. This is more like juggling concepts, fantasies, and projections. Talking about "the truth" feels a bit pointless.

If you're looking for actual science or religious debates, go find another sub.

Truth isn't a scientific metric—it's a philosophical one.

Sam Martinez9 said:To those who lived 500 or even 1,000 years ago—we are nothing more than a utopian dream.

Well, uh... we haven't actually built a "utopian" political system yet...

The extreme version is always a dystopia (the "utopia" trap)
A true utopia—if you think about it—requires centralized power. (Like the New World Order stuff). Of course, that brings up the whole issue of good intentions vs. total control... trying to stop things from sliding into a full-blown dystopia.

gentlerider7 said:But come on, most societies in America can at least agree on the basics, can't they? Like, we generally all agree that things like robbery, murder, and total chaos are bad news.

That’s basically what civilization is built on.
Philosophers helped make that happen.

Thomas Nelson25 said:That’s basically what civilization is built on.
Philosophers helped make that happen.

Obviously. Philosophy isn't just a byproduct of civilization—it's the foundation. Without it, we wouldn't even have a civilization to speak of.

Thomas Nelson25 said:That’s basically what civilization is built on.
Philosophers helped make that happen.

But honestly, you see stuff like this even in societies people usually label as "uncivilized." If you listen to those primitivist types—and yeah, they've got their own logic—they’ll tell you the whole downward spiral actually started when civilization kicked in and wiped out that era of pure, natural innocence. But hey, that's a whole different rabbit hole we don't need to go down right now.

ruggedraven36 said:Obviously. Philosophy isn't just a byproduct of civilization—it's the foundation. Without it, we wouldn't even have a civilization to speak of.

Let's start with Plato.
Alright, fine, "truth-seeker."

gentlerider7 said:But honestly, you see stuff like this even in societies people usually label as "uncivilized." If you listen to those primitivist types—and yeah, they've got their own logic—they’ll tell you the whole downward spiral actually started when civilization kicked in and wiped out that era of pure, natural innocence. But hey, that's a whole different rabbit hole we don't need to go down right now.

Yeah, that could definitely be a topic.

Native Americans?

The Chief and the wizard are debating this—but at the end of the day, myth (belief) drives behavior, or more specifically in this case, morality.

..
Back in the day, the church handled it (if you consider that "civilized"?), but now we just have our federal courts. Laws.