Who are the real gurus?

boldsailor2 said:I saw a documentary about her on TV—they mentioned that she basically used the I Ching to make every single life decision.

I did a little digging online... found a tiny bit of something:

She’s spent her life making pilgrimages to all sorts of gurus—most of them total frauds, really—who promise everything from physical healing to pure energy or salvation. And then there’s her relationship with the I Ching—she claims she has this creative, positive connection with the ancient book, treating it like her one true, solitary advisor.

Lately, I’ve been feeling pretty fed up—with the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, and even those fake friendships—so these days, I only really "hang out" with her songs. 😍
Either "I'm traveling" — or just "on the road." Desire—it’s just everything. All over the world—everywhere, really. 😬

So, I ran into an old childhood friend on the street the other day—just passing through—and he doesn't even ask "how are you?" or "how's life?" Instead, he immediately starts talking trash about Jesus. He's rambling on about God and love... then drifts into Hare Krishnas and all this half-baked nonsense. There I am, just standing there like an idiot in the middle of the sidewalk, clutching two CVS bags full of cat food, basically waiting for him to trip into a manhole or for some invisible hand to toss him straight into the universe. It’s been eight years since I’ve bothered socializing with anyone, and honestly? I don't miss it at all. I'm perfectly happy hanging out with my cats and feeding the squirrels in the yard. 😬

So, I actually went to visit the Smith family at Arlington National Cemetery recently—just so it doesn't look like I'm avoiding everyone. 🤣

Thanks for such a detailed, fascinating, and truly excellent response! 👍

I moved it over to that fantastic thread about the I Ching started by one truly outstanding forum member. 👍
I was thinking about how we often approach our spiritual journeys, almost like we’re trying to conquer a mountain or complete some kind of checklist. There’s this constant pressure to "do" more, to achieve a certain state of being, as if enlightenment were just another item on a busy professional's to-do list. But honestly, looking at the teachings of people like Jiddu Krishnamurti, it feels like the opposite. It’s less about adding things to ourselves and more about stripping away the clutter. We spend so much energy building up these complex identities—our careers, our social standings, our little ego-driven narratives—that we forget how to simply *be*. It reminds me of that idea that man is free; God won't force anyone to do anything. That freedom is actually quite terrifying, isn't it? If there is no external force pushing us, then the responsibility for our own inner stillness falls entirely on our shoulders. We can't blame our upbringing, our environment, or our circumstances once we realize that true peace comes from within, not from changing the world around us. I've been reflecting on the concept of being peaceful as the ultimate foundation for any spiritual practice. It’s easy to talk about seeking the Light when everything is going smoothly, but maintaining that internal equilibrium when life gets messy—when you're stuck in traffic on the I-95 or dealing with a difficult boss—that's where the real work happens. Maybe we should stop trying so hard to "find" something and instead focus on clearing the space so that what is already there can finally be felt. It's a bit humbling, realizing that all our striving might actually be the very thing standing in our way.

silverwolf98 said:You can spend your life pouring over the Buddha, some self-proclaimed master, an avatar, or endless scientific papers—or even worse, just sitting there playing the part of the wise, enlightened sage in your own head because you think you’ve already mastered it all. Just more noise and spikes.
It’s all just badaves if you don't actually look inward and read your own soul. Only then can you truly tell yourself where you stand—whether you're stuck in a mess, living in bliss, or actually experiencing freedom... whatever version of reality you've been dreaming up.

What does it even mean to "see and read yourself"?


Jiddu Krishnamurti
The anti-guru guru—a guy who spent his entire life trying to use philosophy (basically, using thought) to show people how dangerous thoughts, divisions, and illusions can be, not to mention our social conditioning.
Whether he actually pulled it off is anyone's guess.

"I maintain that truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or coerce people along a particular path. ... This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies."

PS
Seems like Sylvia Plath had a pretty tragic life, huh?

casualtiger2 said:What does it even mean to "see and read yourself"?


Jiddu Krishnamurti
The anti-guru guru—a guy who spent his entire life trying to use philosophy (basically, using thought) to show people how dangerous thoughts, divisions, and illusions can be, not to mention our social conditioning.
Whether he actually pulled it off is anyone's guess.

"I maintain that truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or coerce people along a particular path. ... This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies."

PS
Seems like Sylvia Plath had a pretty tragic life, huh?

The Cyclops effect. It’s that singular, overwhelming focus where everything else just blurs out of existence, leaving you staring straight into the eye of the storm.

Mother Meera

“The whole purpose of my work is in the calling down of the Paramatman light and in helping people. For this i came – to open your hearts to the Light.”

Question : Mother, could you tell me more about what you do, if that's okay?

MM: Well, first off, i bring down the light. I work to establish Peace, and I also try to help people surrender to the Divine, you know, just helping them remember the Divine and stay true and sincere to whatever religion or belief system they hold dear. I really just want to help people find happiness within their own families.

Q: So, if you had to say, what's your main goal?

MM: It's really about helping us humans and making sure we're happy, peaceful, content, harmonious, and full of love. I truly believe happiness and spiritual growth are tied together, you know? Being peaceful is such a huge part of the foundation for any spiritual practice. Once you have that, the rest of the practice kind of just flows naturally.

Q: And what are you aiming for specifically?

MM: Just to protect every single aspect of the human experience.
I think I get human nature quite well, and I know just how tough life on Earth can be, honestly. I try to help everyone, no matter what kind of situation they're in or where they are in their own awareness. Sometimes, other incarnations seem to focus mostly on people at one specific stage of life, but I try to reach everyone.

Q: So, the Mother's work in the world is happening constantly right now, isn't it?

MM: It really is, all the time. The collective consciousness of humanity is being prepared for these massive leaps and big discoveries—we try to do it gently whenever we can, of course. But, I guess some things just have to be cleared away. I don't actually enjoy destroying things; I much prefer changing them. But if there's no openness, then destruction becomes necessary. Still, God is giving us such a huge opportunity. There are many divine beings here right now. We're basically showing people a way out, offering up the divine Light and divine knowledge. We are bringing down into the consciousness of the Earth the divine consciousness. Now, it's really up to people to decide. man is free; God will not force his children to do anything. He just wants their love, given freely. Mercy and love are always available.

Q: You've used the Paramatman light to help speed up the process of global and individual transformation. Is there anything else you do besides bringing down the Light?

MM: I'm here to share that every path is equally valid and they all eventually lead back to the Divine. Because of that, I feel like people of different faiths should really respect one another's journeys. Like, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and all sorts of religious folks can follow their own traditions, but they shouldn't be hating or fighting over someone else's beliefs. People who follow any path can come to me—I help them to remember the Divine, and I try to provide them with peace and happiness when they're going through a hard time.

casualtiger2 said:What does it even mean to "see and read yourself"?


Jiddu Krishnamurti
The anti-guru guru—a guy who spent his entire life trying to use philosophy (basically, using thought) to show people how dangerous thoughts, divisions, and illusions can be, not to mention our social conditioning.
Whether he actually pulled it off is anyone's guess.

"I maintain that truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or coerce people along a particular path. ... This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies."

PS
Seems like Sylvia Plath had a pretty tragic life, huh?

The real question is whether the others were any more successful. By the way, they used to call his near-identical counterpart U.G. Krishnamurti an "anti-guru." U.G. was born into a Brahmin family, and from early childhood, he was constantly badgered by these self-proclaimed sages who would gather at his parents' house. He knew Jiddu, attended a couple of his lectures, and apparently, the mutual intolerance there went both ways... He even sought out Raman, whom he dismissed as someone who just lies around reading comic books. UG seemed like a pretty interesting character, though.🙏

Paul Rogers94 said:The real question is whether the others were any more successful. By the way, they used to call his near-identical counterpart U.G. Krishnamurti an "anti-guru." U.G. was born into a Brahmin family, and from early childhood, he was constantly badgered by these self-proclaimed sages who would gather at his parents' house. He knew Jiddu, attended a couple of his lectures, and apparently, the mutual intolerance there went both ways... He even sought out Raman, whom he dismissed as someone who just lies around reading comic books. UG seemed like a pretty interesting character, though.🙏

I read somewhere that Raman used to read comics and was a huge fan of Westerns.
When people asked him why he liked comics so much, he just said, "Because a lot happens in them."

Paul Rogers94 said:The real question is whether the others were any more successful. By the way, they used to call his near-identical counterpart U.G. Krishnamurti an "anti-guru." U.G. was born into a Brahmin family, and from early childhood, he was constantly badgered by these self-proclaimed sages who would gather at his parents' house. He knew Jiddu, attended a couple of his lectures, and apparently, the mutual intolerance there went both ways... He even sought out Raman, whom he dismissed as someone who just lies around reading comic books. UG seemed like a pretty interesting character, though.🙏

So we're talking about the guy who walked out on his wife and seriously ill son just to wander around New York City?
The one whose Swiss wife supported him his entire life—the man who experienced a total calamity, or let's call it enlightenment, right after his final blowout with Krishnamurti?

Rudolf Steiner



Then there's another one—the guy who didn't buy into the idea that Krishnamurti was the new Maitreyi, split from the Theosophical Society, and started the Anthroposophy movement.
His schools spread across the globe, and he actually left a mark on agriculture, art, and medicine (my family doctor of 30 years—someone I rarely see, though she's a good friend with her own practice here in Switzerland—still uses Anthroposophical methods quite successfully).
It’s a bit of a paradox, similar to the situation with Raman regarding "a healthy mind in a healthy body"—it looks like he ended up dying of cancer too.

mistybison said:Can the tradition of the guru really be plucked from one culture and dropped into another without losing its essence?

Isn't the term "spiritual teacher" far too broad as well? You could have yoga instructors, meditation coaches, healers, or even shamans...

Who actually qualifies to be a spiritual teacher?

Why not? It’s actually been happening for a while now, especially when you look at the East-West connection. The world has never been this interconnected, and honestly, it’s only going to get tighter from here. Even if cultures seem worlds apart, at the end of the day, we're all just people. Every culture is a human creation. Plus, pretty much every tradition has some version of a guru involved—civilizations basically rely on passing down knowledge through someone.

Just to give you guys an idea, here’s how the tantrasara describes what makes a top-tier teacher versus a great student. I’ll drop the Sanskrit verses (latin transcription) first, then the English breakdown right underneath.

Shánto dánto kuliinascha viniita shuddhaveshaván
Shuddhácárii supratiśthita shucirdakśah subuddhimán
Áshramii dhyánaniśt́ashca tantramantra visháradah
Nigrahánugrahe shakto gururityabhidhiiyate.

To actually earn the title of guru, a person needs to be composed, self-controlled, and skilled at raising the kundalini. They should be modest, dress simply, lead by example, and make an honest living. On top of that, they need to be pure in thought, deeply knowledgeable about spiritual practices, highly intelligent, grounded in everyday life, steady in meditation, and experts in Tantra and mantra. Plus, they gotta have the ability to both discipline and encourage a student.

Shánto viniito shuddhátmá
Shraddhávána dhárańákśamah;
Samarthashca kuliinashca
Prájiṋah saccarito yatih;
Evamádi guńaeryuktah
Shishyo bhavati nányathá.

As for the student, they’ve gotta be samartha—basically, ready to jump on whatever instructions or commands the master gives. They also need to be prájiṋa and yati, meaning they have the right knowledge, plenty of experience, and total control over their own mind. An ideal disciple is someone with a noble soul and conduct, a calm mind, a bit of humility, a sharp memory, and some serious grit. They should be competent in everything they do, passionate about the work of raising the kulakundalini, well-informed, and disciplined.

Joe Strummer

The ultimate guru for these modern times—you can find all these incredible spiritual books online for free or via torrents. 🍿

A true guru is someone who stands to gain absolutely nothing from you; they couldn't care less whether you choose to listen or not, and they certainly won't ask you for a fee or a "donation."
Such a person wouldn't even consider themselves a guru.

A real math professor doesn't care if you actually listen to them or not—they aren't looking to squeeze a buck out of you or fish for "donations."
To a guy like that, they aren't even really a teacher.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi—I saw him up close in New York City once and he seemed fine—is the guy who made Transcendental Meditation (mantra-based meditation) accessible to millions of people.
It’s a simple, effortless technique that genuinely helps with stress relief.
Of course, it comes with plenty of folklore (those pseudo-scientific attempts to explain how it affects the physical world), some serious pretentiousness (it was honestly hilarious seeing meditation teachers at a beach resort in the middle of summer, all decked out in full suits and ties just to look "official"), and a whole lot of business (though back in New York City thirty years ago, I managed to get a pretty good deal—even the monks in Italy were surprisingly affordable).

An incredibly inspiring documentary

The Gazer is hands down the greatest guru to ever exist.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:An incredibly inspiring documentary

At one point, he tells a student—roughly this: once you leave here, do whatever you want. Smoke, drink, screw around... there’s zero risk of those things touching your true self. However, living within that "self" is what puts your habits at risk.

Essentially, virtue is just a natural byproduct—the scent, if you will—of actual insight. Simply mimicking virtue—forcing it—leads absolutely nowhere regarding true realization...

You really have to learn how to eat and drink without being so attached to it... It’s almost like trying to master nuclear physics, isn't it?

Paul Rogers94 said:At one point, he tells a student—roughly this: once you leave here, do whatever you want. Smoke, drink, screw around... there’s zero risk of those things touching your true self. However, living within that "self" is what puts your habits at risk.

Essentially, virtue is just a natural byproduct—the scent, if you will—of actual insight. Simply mimicking virtue—forcing it—leads absolutely nowhere regarding true realization...

The right way would be to experience samadhi (transcendental consciousness) through meditation and practice while simultaneously cultivating virtues, because they feed into each other: experiencing samadhi makes following virtues easier, and practicing those virtues makes reaching samadhi easier.
To put it simply: samadhi, the yamas, the niyamas, and all the other limbs of yoga develop together.

Thich Nhat Hanh

"Love is something that helps you suffer less."

The art of Being Peace | dharma talk by Thich Nhat Hanh, 2008 05 13

Just another guru selling smoke—though, to be fair, he actually left a mark for the better. It wasn't just about peddling Buddhist meditation techniques and lofty teachings,
but his actual, boots-on-the-ground social activism.