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Question for the agnostics

Started by Gregory Carter67 · · 👁 6 views · 47 replies

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Participants Gregory Carter67Tyler Ruiz502bluemason3Thomas Nelson25graniteridge31casualtiger2hollowpuma762darkravenmistydrifter55Jesse Sullivan2rapidmason1Frank Allen70nimblehound13Ryan Wilson2Donna White50brisksurfer3
casualtiger2 casualtiger2 Regular
330 messages
joined Apr 2022
#21 ·
rapidmason1 said:Neither holy books nor prayers are required; one simply needs to place absolute faith in science.
That is to say, science.
It has been proven from every angle that there was a moment, billions of years ago, when there was no time, no matter, no energy, and no space. There were no laws of nature; there wasn't even a "nothingness" to speak of.
And then, the Big Bang occurred, giving rise to time and space, which then gave birth to matter, energy, galaxies, Earth... and time began to flow.
The question remains, however: how can anyone prove that this single moment, where everything suddenly went "boom," simply started from nothing?
Is it not logical that prior to that, there existed a supernatural entity—since nature, space, and time did not yet exist—who caused all of this and determined how it would unfold?
Something cannot emerge from nothing; everything must have a cause, and the cause of all existence is precisely an entity that preceded nature and everything else, whom we call God.
You see, science has arrived at this so-called zero point, but it will never be able to move beyond it, because science functions based on the laws of nature, which did not exist before that point.
In essence, it has merely confirmed that sentence from the Bible: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He existed before all things, and He is the cause of all things.
According to the Bible, and according to science...

Who's saying it all started from nothing, anyway?
Why does there even have to be a beginning?
It's entirely possible the universe has always been here—maybe it expands periodically and then collapses back into a massive, dense point... all just following the laws of physics.
image
Quincy:
Isn't it logical that some supernatural entity existed beforehand (since nature, space, and time didn't exist yet) to cause it all and set the rules?
Like I said—logic isn't really the point here. Especially not the logic used by theologians.

Still, no one has actually tried answering my question— how can you tell if we're talking about God, or just a god?
We're still stuck there. For all we know, maybe there are gods for the US, or for every single country. So, if an American travels to India to preach, sticking to their Christian beliefs and rituals, aren't they basically committing a sin against the god of India—and facing judgment because of it?
Kind of like how feudal lords used to run things by their own rules on their own estates.
Makes sense, right? 😍
Frank Allen70 Frank Allen70 Member
16 messages
joined Dec 2016
#22 ·
Quincy:
rapidmason1 As I was saying:
We don't need to lean on sacred texts or pour our energy into prayers—not when we can simply place our absolute faith in science.
So, science.
It has been established from every conceivable angle that there was a specific moment—I can't even begin to wrap my head around the scale of it—billions of years ago, when... Imagine a state of absolute nothingness—not just a void, but a total absence of everything we understand to be real. I’m talking about a moment before time had even begun to tick, before matter existed to occupy any space, and before energy could even flicker into life. There was no spatial dimension to speak of, no vacuum to fill, and certainly no laws of physics to govern existence. In that profound stillness, there wasn't even "nothing" in the way we conceptualize it today; there was simply... nothing.
And then came the Big Bang—that singular, monumental explosion—and from that instant, time and space were forged. Out of that chaos, matter, energy, and entire galaxies began to coalesce, eventually giving rise to our own planet... and finally, time itself began its relentless flow.
The real question—the one that truly keeps us up at night—is how anyone can actually prove that specific moment when everything suddenly went "boom" didn't just spring into existence out of thin air. How do we demonstrate that this entire cosmic explosion started from absolutely nothing?
Isn't it simply logical to conclude that there had to be a supernatural entity existing prior to everything else? I mean, think about it—before all this, nature itself didn't exist, nor did space or time. There had to be something beyond those constraints that set everything in motion and dictated exactly how it would all unfold.
Nothing can truly emerge from nothingness—it is a fundamental impossibility.Everything in this existence requires a cause—there’s just no way around it. If you trace any chain of events back to its starting point, you eventually hit that ultimate origin: someone who exists before nature itself and precedes all of creation, whom we call God.
Well, here we go— Science has finally reached what we might call that proverbial "zero point"—that absolute baseline where everything we thought we knew begins to unravel. It’s quite fascinating, really—if you think about it—how we spend centuries building these massive, intricate structures of logic and empirical data, only to find ourselves standing at the edge of an abyss where the old rules simply cease to apply. It reminds me a bit of how architects might design a skyscraper with perfect mathematical precision, only to realize the very ground they’re building on is shifting in ways their blueprints never accounted for. We’ve pushed our instruments and our theories to the absolute limit, and now, instead of finding more answers, we’ve arrived at this singular, quiet threshold where the fundamental nature of reality seems to demand a completely different kind of understanding.But she won't be able to catch up—it’s simply impossible—because once you cross that threshold, everything starts operating under entirely different natural laws, rules that just didn't exist before you hit that point.
It seems she has finally validated that profound passage from the Bible: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He existed before everything else—truly the primary cause behind all that is.
It really comes down to how you choose to view the world—whether you're looking through the lens of the Bible or through the lens of modern science.
This hasn't been proven in any sane context—honestly, any physicist worth their salt would tell you exactly the same thing. If you're still clinging to the idea that something can spring from absolutely nothing, I’d strongly suggest you take a deep dive into vacuum energy theory instead. It changes the whole conversation.

Regarding the question of what the universe actually looked like in its earliest stages—well, I think we really ought to pause and ask ourselves just how certain we can be that time functions as a linear progression. Specifically, can we truly claim that a millennium lasted exactly as long immediately following the birth of the cosmos as it does in our current era? It all boils down to a fundamental problem: it is an impossibility to measure a reference system from within itself. We are essentially trapped inside the experiment. Consequently, we cannot know with any degree of certainty how time exerts its influence on everything else. At most, we are merely theorizing—playing a high-stakes game of educated guesswork. To present absolute theories based solely on empirical data is, quite frankly, irresponsible. Empirical evidence can only reach as far as the collective conscious memory of humanity; anything preceding that threshold becomes increasingly impossible to quantify through such methods.

What you're seeing in the media lately is nothing more than—well, let's call it what it is—purely superficial noise. It’s all surface-level chatter designed to grab headlines, lacking any real substance or depth. (unconscious) The academic community often falls into a cycle of propaganda—not necessarily because they are all dishonest thieves, mind you, but because the funding structures dictate their survival. It’s a simple matter of economics: if a research project doesn't promise something practically applicable or commercially viable, the grant money simply isn't there. Consequently, to secure their livelihood, researchers are often forced to frame their theories as if they were the absolute, singular truth. Everyone is essentially just protecting their own turf within this system. Because of this, when someone actually manages to speak a hard truth amidst all that manufactured noise, it's incredibly difficult for a complacent consciousness to truly grasp it—aside from perhaps a fleeting moment of inspiration upon hearing it. Realizing the truth requires more than just listening; you need the proper tools to process it. And in this life, the only tool we truly possess is ourselves.

hollowpuma762 said:Actually, it doesn't say "Word." It says Logos.

http://biblehub.com/text/john/1-1.htm

Calling it a "Word" is just an interpretation. One of many, anyway.


Let’s consider the tool I am discussing—it is hidden within the very essence of the word Logos. If we examine the term itself (λόγος) written in the Greek alphabet and simply strip away the vowels, what remains is λγς. What do we actually see here if we view these letters as images rather than mere instruments for recording sound? (Visualization has always been the primary function of consonants—vowels are different, serving more to facilitate pronunciation—but again... that is a science unto itself and certainly not the focus here. I can only say that the way we study linguistics today emphasizes the function of speech rather than the function of symbols).

We see up, we see down, and we see the serpent. We see a direction that moves in both ways simultaneously. We see a flow coursing through the human crown. We see the manner in which the spinning top, the country, and the sun rotate within the galaxy and upon themselves. We see direction in all directions inscribed within a single direction. We are seeing a living paradox. However, to perceive everything I am describing, one must possess a highly developed personal toolkit—one's own body, one's own consciousness, one's own method of visualization, and one's own mind. In short—one's own first four spiritual bodies (physical, etheric, astral, mental). Everything I have mentioned is merely phenomenology—by following a logical syllogism to its simplest conclusion, the reality is that a person perceives only as much as their own energy permits them to (here, "energy" refers to the flow of consciousness through oneself... if we view the human body as electrons, energy is their form when those electrons move—the resulting phenomenon is electrical energy) . Developing the spiritual bodies and opening the chakras essentially boils down to making certain forms accessible to the energy of the same being, thereby bringing them into that being's domain, into their control. A person conquers themselves. How? Through gnosis! And gnosis is always internal—therefore, man is his own tool. 😁
rapidmason1 rapidmason1 Member
12 messages
joined Jul 2016
#23 ·
casualtiger2 said:Who's saying it all started from nothing, anyway?
Why does there even have to be a beginning?
It's entirely possible the universe has always been here—maybe it expands periodically and then collapses back into a massive, dense point... all just following the laws of physics.
image
Quincy:
Isn't it logical that some supernatural entity existed beforehand (since nature, space, and time didn't exist yet) to cause it all and set the rules?
Like I said—logic isn't really the point here. Especially not the logic used by theologians.

Still, no one has actually tried answering my question— how can you tell if we're talking about God, or just a god?
We're still stuck there. For all we know, maybe there are gods for the US, or for every single country. So, if an American travels to India to preach, sticking to their Christian beliefs and rituals, aren't they basically committing a sin against the god of India—and facing judgment because of it?
Kind of like how feudal lords used to run things by their own rules on their own estates.
Makes sense, right? 😍

Regarding that question about who we're talking about... I honestly don't think anyone owes you an answer...
If we still find ourselves needing to explain or interpret the Revelation after there are already twenty-seven books dedicated to it in NZ, and even more than that in SZ—not to mention the millions of other volumes written solely to offer commentary and interpretation—then I am certain we don't need any more... If we can't find clarity after all that, then there simply isn't anything left to say. The events surrounding Jesus's life are arguably the most thoroughly documented period of the entire ancient world, and he himself is mentioned in the primary historical sources far more frequently than even the Roman Emperors of that era.
Explanations and persuasions are truly no longer necessary...
Even if I were to provide another thousand explanations, he would simply find himself right back at square one, demanding clarity once again... It is quite futile to attempt to explain something that remains fundamentally incomprehensible to certain individuals, so I believe there is no point in even trying...

In India, he probably wouldn't have stood a chance, but among the Arabs, he definitely would have... those are just different political systems altogether. It’s hardly surprising, really; in human societies, religion and politics are always so deeply intertwined...
Thomas Nelson25 Thomas Nelson25 Regular
582 messages
joined Jan 2021
#24 ·
Kind of like the TAO.
BB is just a theory at this point—it fits best, but still...
casualtiger2 casualtiger2 Regular
330 messages
joined Apr 2022
#25 ·
rapidmason1 said:Regarding that question about who we're talking about... I honestly don't think anyone owes you an answer...
If we still find ourselves needing to explain or interpret the Revelation after there are already twenty-seven books dedicated to it in NZ, and even more than that in SZ—not to mention the millions of other volumes written solely to offer commentary and interpretation—then I am certain we don't need any more... If we can't find clarity after all that, then there simply isn't anything left to say. The events surrounding Jesus's life are arguably the most thoroughly documented period of the entire ancient world, and he himself is mentioned in the primary historical sources far more frequently than even the Roman Emperors of that era.
Explanations and persuasions are truly no longer necessary...
Even if I were to provide another thousand explanations, he would simply find himself right back at square one, demanding clarity once again... It is quite futile to attempt to explain something that remains fundamentally incomprehensible to certain individuals, so I believe there is no point in even trying...

In India, he probably wouldn't have stood a chance, but among the Arabs, he definitely would have... those are just different political systems altogether. It’s hardly surprising, really; in human societies, religion and politics are always so deeply intertwined...

There isn't really a "good" answer here, other than just putting your faith in some ancient books written by who-knows-who at some point in history.
Why on earth would you think those books hold any weight regarding this question?
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#26 ·
Tyler Ruiz502 said:You’ve basically constructed this entire elaborate narrative based on a bunch of assumptions, and now you're looking at it and wondering why the whole thing feels totally illogical? 😬

Look, an agnostic doesn't spend their time obsessing over higher powers. They just live their lives—using the faculties they were born with and sharpening them along the way—completely unburdened by spirituality. Honestly, most agnostics only even remember they identify that way if someone actually asks.

I don't quite get why you're calling those features "gifts." It feels like you just got tangled up in this weird web of your own making—assuming that agnostics believe in some higher power that bestowed these "gifts" upon them, and then acting surprised when you realize it seems illogical that this supposed higher power wouldn't use its own gift.

Like I said before, we don't really bother ourselves with all that esoteric stuff; we just focus on living a good life and making the most of the possibilities right in front of us.

Not me—I’m talking about people who strictly believe in a higher power. Nothing is actually complicated; it only feels that way to someone who chooses to look at it through that lens.

Tyler Ruiz502 said:You’ve basically constructed this entire elaborate narrative based on a bunch of assumptions, and now you're looking at it and wondering why the whole thing feels totally illogical? 😬

Look, an agnostic doesn't spend their time obsessing over higher powers. They just live their lives—using the faculties they were born with and sharpening them along the way—completely unburdened by spirituality. Honestly, most agnostics only even remember they identify that way if someone actually asks.

I don't quite get why you're calling those features "gifts." It feels like you just got tangled up in this weird web of your own making—assuming that agnostics believe in some higher power that bestowed these "gifts" upon them, and then acting surprised when you realize it seems illogical that this supposed higher power wouldn't use its own gift.

Like I said before, we don't really bother ourselves with all that esoteric stuff; we just focus on living a good life and making the most of the possibilities right in front of us.

Just because most people seem to get the gist doesn't mean everyone actually thinks the same way—so calling it a universal truth is just lazy generalizing.

Tyler Ruiz502 said:You’ve basically constructed this entire elaborate narrative based on a bunch of assumptions, and now you're looking at it and wondering why the whole thing feels totally illogical? 😬

Look, an agnostic doesn't spend their time obsessing over higher powers. They just live their lives—using the faculties they were born with and sharpening them along the way—completely unburdened by spirituality. Honestly, most agnostics only even remember they identify that way if someone actually asks.

I don't quite get why you're calling those features "gifts." It feels like you just got tangled up in this weird web of your own making—assuming that agnostics believe in some higher power that bestowed these "gifts" upon them, and then acting surprised when you realize it seems illogical that this supposed higher power wouldn't use its own gift.

Like I said before, we don't really bother ourselves with all that esoteric stuff; we just focus on living a good life and making the most of the possibilities right in front of us.

And why not? There’s actually a rule somewhere on the forum: "don't call a feature a gift." Plus, why bother mixing English and American—it just gets messy. You can say everything you need to say in one language.

Tyler Ruiz502 said:You’ve basically constructed this entire elaborate narrative based on a bunch of assumptions, and now you're looking at it and wondering why the whole thing feels totally illogical? 😬

Look, an agnostic doesn't spend their time obsessing over higher powers. They just live their lives—using the faculties they were born with and sharpening them along the way—completely unburdened by spirituality. Honestly, most agnostics only even remember they identify that way if someone actually asks.

I don't quite get why you're calling those features "gifts." It feels like you just got tangled up in this weird web of your own making—assuming that agnostics believe in some higher power that bestowed these "gifts" upon them, and then acting surprised when you realize it seems illogical that this supposed higher power wouldn't use its own gift.

Like I said before, we don't really bother ourselves with all that esoteric stuff; we just focus on living a good life and making the most of the possibilities right in front of us.

I don't get why you guys are getting so worked up about this. You completely missed the point—honestly, I’m not even surprised at this point—I’m just asking a question.

Quincy:
Katjes—basically the gummy candy equivalent of a reliable old Ford. Simple, straightforward, and doesn't need all that extra junk to get the job done. kaže:
Like I said—we aren't wasting our energy on that esoteric stuff. We’re just out here living life to the fullest and grabbing every opportunity that comes our way.
Look, dodging the question is an answer in itself. Honestly, it’s clear I’m barking up the wrong tree here—you’re just not the one with the answers I'm looking for. Peace.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#27 ·
bluemason3 said:a - they don't offer explanations, which is why they lean toward agnosticism rather than being atheists or believers

b - the sheer complexity of existence isn't exactly a slam dunk proof of God.

If they ask, I can walk them through it.

bluemason3 said:a - they don't offer explanations, which is why they lean toward agnosticism rather than being atheists or believers

b - the sheer complexity of existence isn't exactly a slam dunk proof of God.

Whether something is good or bad isn't even the point here—nor was it ever about proving God's existence.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#28 ·
darkraven said:Look, not only is that completely wrong about what agnosticism actually means, but what you're describing is basically just a specific flavor of theism: ietism. It's a type of belief that isn't exactly mainstream, even though there are plenty of people out there who fit that description perfectly.

I’ve been looking into this whole "ietsism" thing—this idea that people just believe in *something*—and honestly, it’s not really what I’m getting at. It feels like pure Secularism, which doesn't necessarily define agnosticism. Agnosticism shouldn't even have to deal with religious stances in the first place—especially if the core vibe is just "I don't know." Personally, I’ve heard folks who call themselves agnostic describe it as "believing in something, but just not being sure exactly what it is." I haven't actually had the chance to sit down and grill anyone to see if they actually agree with that.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#29 ·
mistydrifter55 said:Since you’re looking at this through the lens of a believer while asking a question like this, it makes sense that you're struggling to wrap your head around someone seeing things differently than you do. You assume there's some divine exchange happening, but what if there isn't?
God is God. That's just how it works. He's fundamentally different from an earthly physical being.
There aren't "gifts" involved—not physical ones, not emotional ones, nothing.
And there’s zero need for any kind of cosmic payback.
People just think differently. Period.

Look, I have no problem grasping that people think differently or view life's blessings through a different prism. That's not the issue. My point wasn't even about whether these things count as gifts or blessings—that's beside the point. I wasn't aiming for that. It was just an observation that they exist. The actual question was about how someone who *does* believe in a higher power explains that reality.

mistydrifter55 said:Since you’re looking at this through the lens of a believer while asking a question like this, it makes sense that you're struggling to wrap your head around someone seeing things differently than you do. You assume there's some divine exchange happening, but what if there isn't?
God is God. That's just how it works. He's fundamentally different from an earthly physical being.
There aren't "gifts" involved—not physical ones, not emotional ones, nothing.
And there’s zero need for any kind of cosmic payback.
People just think differently. Period.

Fine. But let me repeat myself. Whether something is a "gift" or if we need to "return" anything to the heavens (not that I even know what that would look like)—that's not what I'm debating. Let's drop the whole "gift" terminology entirely. The bottom line is that humans possess these elements—life, emotions, whatever you want to call them. That's just a fact. My question hits at this: if a person possesses these things, why reject the possibility that they might stem from something unknown or something that transcends us? If we're calling this thing a "higher power"—your words, by the way—then why assume that power has to be some mindless, dead, mere energy source? At least according to some people. If life and everything else come from the same source, the math doesn't add up for me.

Just to be clear—I don't have an issue with the agnostic stance. Everyone can believe whatever they want or feel certain about.
Gregory Carter67 Gregory Carter67 MemberOP
25 messages
joined May 2018
#30 ·
The big shot said:says:
my cat could pull all that off too—and she’s never even stepped foot in a church.

Sure, but cats and animals run on pure instinct—unlike humans, who operate on a much higher level of consciousness. A cat couldn't even go to church if it wanted to, since it doesn't grasp the concept. And again, I really don't want this thread turning into a debate about religion, churches, or the Bible. There are plenty of other threads for that stuff, and I'm sure you can find similar ones over there. People should be able to come up with logical answers without needing to lean on some religious text to do it.
nimblehound13 nimblehound13 Newcomer
3 messages
joined May 2018
#31 ·
The OP tried pretty hard to dodge any actual theorizing about God or the Bible.

@op
Look, speaking as an agnostic, my short answer is that what you're talking about doesn't actually mean anything. You're just building this massive strawman out of stories about "divine gifts" and other nonsense, then expecting me to wrap it up in some logical framework.
Personally, I have no idea if God—or whatever else—exists. I tossed the Christian version of God aside as nothing more than a tool for oppression when I was 17, after spending ten years sitting through religious education.
On a purely intellectual level, I figure if there is some higher power out there, we aren't capable of perceiving or even understanding it. Maybe we'll evolve enough to get it one day, maybe it'll reveal itself, or maybe there's just nothing at all.
Nick doesn't know, and frankly, the believers probably know the least of all. Their view of the world is so boxed in by dogma that they can't even manage critical thinking.
darkraven darkraven Active Member
60 messages
joined Apr 2022
#32 ·
Gregory Carter67 said:I’ve been looking into this whole "ietsism" thing—this idea that people just believe in *something*—and honestly, it’s not really what I’m getting at. It feels like pure Secularism, which doesn't necessarily define agnosticism. Agnosticism shouldn't even have to deal with religious stances in the first place—especially if the core vibe is just "I don't know." Personally, I’ve heard folks who call themselves agnostic describe it as "believing in something, but just not being sure exactly what it is." I haven't actually had the chance to sit down and grill anyone to see if they actually agree with that.

No way, man. Ietsism isn't just "Secularism," and honestly, I'm pretty baffled that you could read this and totally gloss over the parts that align perfectly with your own definition, "believing in something without being sure what it is";

"Ietsism (Dutch: ietsisme (pronounced [itsˈɪsmə]) – "somethingism") is an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent reality."

"Ietsism may roughly be described as a belief in an end-in-itself or similar concept, without further assumption as to exactly what object or objects have such a property, like intrinsic aliquidism without further specification. Other aliquidistic lifestances include the acceptance of "there is something – that is, some meaning of life, something that is an end-in-itself or something more to existence – and it is...", assuming various objects or truths, while ietsism, on the other hand simply accepts "there is something", without further specification, detailing or assumption.

That is literally exactly what you're describing. I have zero clue how you missed that.

Plus, theists can definitely be agnostic (like, "I believe in God, but I don't know for sure if He exists / I think it's impossible to know if He exists"), so the two aren't mutually exclusive at all.

Agnostic ietsists basically believe there is something out there (some kind of "higher power" or "energy"), but they don't actually know if that thing truly exists or if it's even possible to prove it—they just believe.
rapidmason1 rapidmason1 Member
12 messages
joined Jul 2016
#33 ·
casualtiger2 said:There isn't really a "good" answer here, other than just putting your faith in some ancient books written by who-knows-who at some point in history.
Why on earth would you think those books hold any weight regarding this question?

It is actually quite well-documented who recorded them and when. There is an incredible wealth of interpretations, explanations, and analyses covering every possible angle, all of which are openly available to anyone through local public libraries, online resources, or almost anywhere else you look.
From every conceivable perspective.
But, of course, you could choose a different path.
You could simply ignore all of it.
On what basis, and for what reason, do you conclude that these revealed texts aren't authoritative and that the entire tradition is fundamentally flawed?
Why do you believe this whole structure is a lie?
rapidmason1 rapidmason1 Member
12 messages
joined Jul 2016
#34 ·
nimblehound13 said:The OP tried pretty hard to dodge any actual theorizing about God or the Bible.

@op
Look, speaking as an agnostic, my short answer is that what you're talking about doesn't actually mean anything. You're just building this massive strawman out of stories about "divine gifts" and other nonsense, then expecting me to wrap it up in some logical framework.
Personally, I have no idea if God—or whatever else—exists. I tossed the Christian version of God aside as nothing more than a tool for oppression when I was 17, after spending ten years sitting through religious education.
On a purely intellectual level, I figure if there is some higher power out there, we aren't capable of perceiving or even understanding it. Maybe we'll evolve enough to get it one day, maybe it'll reveal itself, or maybe there's just nothing at all.
Nick doesn't know, and frankly, the believers probably know the least of all. Their view of the world is so boxed in by dogma that they can't even manage critical thinking.

So, this is really where the core misunderstanding lies.
People tend to conflate the institutions themselves with the faith they represent.
The institutions and their representatives—priests, monks, or even the most devout laypeople—are often out of touch, clumsy, rigid, or exclusionary... and because of that, those specific flaws get projected onto the belief system itself.
At the end of the day, they are just human beings like you and me, and they make mistakes, quite naturally.
Yet, by criticizing them, you are actually acknowledging divine authority.
Because you are operating under the assumption that these individuals *must* behave in accordance with God's rules, which inherently validates those very rules.
You expect them to act as divine representatives.
But why?...
Ryan Wilson2 Ryan Wilson2 Regular
387 messages
joined Dec 2002
#35 ·
Well, I identified as an agnostic on the last census 🧐

Gregory Carter67 said:I’m intentionally dropping this thread here instead of the religion sub—mostly to steer clear of theological debates and keep things strictly focused on the metaphysical side through a logical lens. Let's skip the whole Bible discussion and religious text commentary.

I'm curious how folks who lean toward agnosticism explain this one.
Look, a human exists. There are endless possibilities. You can experience life—walking, doing, loving, feeling—basically testing out all sorts of experiences during your time here. Let's just call them "gifts" (doesn't matter if you believe in God or not; call them gifts from whoever you want right now).

An agnostic believes in *something*, they just aren't sure what. A lot of them claim to believe in a higher power, but they don't necessarily believe God is a living being. They see it as some kind of energy. And since energy isn't a sentient being, it can't make decisions, intervene, or anything like that. So, that pretty much rules out the idea of a personal God—a God who actually steps in and meddles in human affairs. The religious take (at least in mainstream American traditions like Christianity) views God as both a higher force *and* a personal being.

So, my question for the agnostics is this: if a person has the capacity to experience all these things, and an agnostic attributes those blessings to a higher power, does it make sense to suggest that this higher power/God is incapable of experiencing those same gifts (in whatever form, doesn't even matter which) that they bestowed upon a lower being (a human)?

In other words, is it logically sound to think that something as incredible as the gift of life is something only "lower" beings—animals, humans, plants—can experience? Is it possible that for a higher power/God, experiencing these things, even in a spiritual or otherworldly way, is impossible? It's like the Being Above gives a gift to the being below, yet that very gift remains unreachable to the Source itself. As someone who believes in God as a living being rather than just raw energy, that doesn't sit right with me—but I'm genuinely interested in the logic used by those who don't believe in a living God.

Just looking for the logic here. No need to pull out a holy book for the answer, which is why I'm posting this here. Cheers.

The gift of life is a miracle? Where on earth are you getting that from? Are you living on the Moon or something, wondering why there's actually life around you? 😁

From where I’m standing, looking at the world around me, life isn't even that miraculous; it's everywhere you look. And frankly, we destroy it quite frequently. People strip away this supposed "miracle" all the time because of their convictions, their religion, or some abstract ideology. We send people off to die in wars just to secure fuel supplies—specifically oil. To simply survive, we have to kill—whether it's animals, plants, or whatever else stands in the way.

There is nothing miraculous about it. It isn't a "gift" at all; in my view, it is simply a fundamental law of the universe, much like gravity. Is gravity considered miraculous just because it consistently follows the exact same formula to function? How does gravity "know" which formula to use? Perhaps that is the true miracle of gravity.

So, there you have it. 😁
Donna White50 Donna White50 Regular
342 messages
joined Jan 2018
#36 ·
Gregory Carter67 said:I’m intentionally dropping this thread here instead of the religion sub—mostly to steer clear of theological debates and keep things strictly focused on the metaphysical side through a logical lens. Let's skip the whole Bible discussion and religious text commentary.

I'm curious how folks who lean toward agnosticism explain this one.
Look, a human exists. There are endless possibilities. You can experience life—walking, doing, loving, feeling—basically testing out all sorts of experiences during your time here. Let's just call them "gifts" (doesn't matter if you believe in God or not; call them gifts from whoever you want right now).

An agnostic believes in *something*, they just aren't sure what. A lot of them claim to believe in a higher power, but they don't necessarily believe God is a living being. They see it as some kind of energy. And since energy isn't a sentient being, it can't make decisions, intervene, or anything like that. So, that pretty much rules out the idea of a personal God—a God who actually steps in and meddles in human affairs. The religious take (at least in mainstream American traditions like Christianity) views God as both a higher force *and* a personal being.

So, my question for the agnostics is this: if a person has the capacity to experience all these things, and an agnostic attributes those blessings to a higher power, does it make sense to suggest that this higher power/God is incapable of experiencing those same gifts (in whatever form, doesn't even matter which) that they bestowed upon a lower being (a human)?

In other words, is it logically sound to think that something as incredible as the gift of life is something only "lower" beings—animals, humans, plants—can experience? Is it possible that for a higher power/God, experiencing these things, even in a spiritual or otherworldly way, is impossible? It's like the Being Above gives a gift to the being below, yet that very gift remains unreachable to the Source itself. As someone who believes in God as a living being rather than just raw energy, that doesn't sit right with me—but I'm genuinely interested in the logic used by those who don't believe in a living God.

Just looking for the logic here. No need to pull out a holy book for the answer, which is why I'm posting this here. Cheers.


Your logic is a bit flawed right out of the gate. You're assuming life and its characteristics are "gifts," but why would they be gifts? And why would a human be any more significant than the stardust we actually came from? We tend to blow the significance of life way out of proportion, but life is really just a cycle of evolution, starting from the creation of the first atom and moving forward from there... We overinflate ourselves because our ego makes us feel important, driving us to fight evolutionarily just to keep the cycle going.
Asking why we walk the earth or why we live isn't any more profound than asking about the existence of an atom or a subatomic particle—it's all tied to the laws governing our universe. The idea of God or a higher power is really just a reflection of our subjective need to make the world and our lives feel meaningful, comforting, and satisfying.
Is the universe itself meaningful, including us walking the earth? Probably, but "meaning" is just a human concept. Other beings don't lose sleep over finding meaning. Maybe meaning is just an illusion, much like our perception of time passing...
hollowpuma762 hollowpuma762 Active Member
190 messages
joined Feb 2015
#37 ·
nimblehound13 said:The OP tried pretty hard to dodge any actual theorizing about God or the Bible.

@op
Look, speaking as an agnostic, my short answer is that what you're talking about doesn't actually mean anything. You're just building this massive strawman out of stories about "divine gifts" and other nonsense, then expecting me to wrap it up in some logical framework.
Personally, I have no idea if God—or whatever else—exists. I tossed the Christian version of God aside as nothing more than a tool for oppression when I was 17, after spending ten years sitting through religious education.
On a purely intellectual level, I figure if there is some higher power out there, we aren't capable of perceiving or even understanding it. Maybe we'll evolve enough to get it one day, maybe it'll reveal itself, or maybe there's just nothing at all.
Nick doesn't know, and frankly, the believers probably know the least of all. Their view of the world is so boxed in by dogma that they can't even manage critical thinking.

Look, there isn't just one "Christian," "Jewish," "Muslim," or "Hindu" God. Instead, what we have are all these different interpretations of the same thing.

Just various concepts viewed from totally different perspectives, grouped by different categories, focuses, and scopes.
Ryan Wilson2 Ryan Wilson2 Regular
387 messages
joined Dec 2002
#38 ·
hollowpuma762 said:Look, there isn't just one "Christian," "Jewish," "Muslim," or "Hindu" God. Instead, what we have are all these different interpretations of the same thing.

Just various concepts viewed from totally different perspectives, grouped by different categories, focuses, and scopes.

I fail to see any logical reason why monotheism should be the governing principle of the entire universe.
casualtiger2 casualtiger2 Regular
330 messages
joined Apr 2022
#39 ·
rapidmason1 said:It is actually quite well-documented who recorded them and when. There is an incredible wealth of interpretations, explanations, and analyses covering every possible angle, all of which are openly available to anyone through local public libraries, online resources, or almost anywhere else you look.
From every conceivable perspective.
But, of course, you could choose a different path.
You could simply ignore all of it.
On what basis, and for what reason, do you conclude that these revealed texts aren't authoritative and that the entire tradition is fundamentally flawed?
Why do you believe this whole structure is a lie?

Just because there's an "unbelievable number of interpretations" doesn't mean any of them are actually true or credible.
To me, "revelation books" are just old books—written by some people, a long time ago, for whatever reasons they had. Often they're wrong, ugly, or even dangerous.
There isn't a shred of proof that they come from God. Just because you—or several of you—call them "books of revelation" doesn't suddenly make them proof of some kind of divine message.

If you can't wrap your head around that (or, you know, accept it), then there's really no point in debating agnosticism—which is what this thread is actually about.
How—exactly—do you figure out that your revelations are from God and not just some random guy?
And for that matter, you're assuming we're even talking about the Christian God. 🙄
nimblehound13 nimblehound13 Newcomer
3 messages
joined May 2018
#40 ·
rapidmason1 said:So, this is really where the core misunderstanding lies.
People tend to conflate the institutions themselves with the faith they represent.
The institutions and their representatives—priests, monks, or even the most devout laypeople—are often out of touch, clumsy, rigid, or exclusionary... and because of that, those specific flaws get projected onto the belief system itself.
At the end of the day, they are just human beings like you and me, and they make mistakes, quite naturally.
Yet, by criticizing them, you are actually acknowledging divine authority.
Because you are operating under the assumption that these individuals *must* behave in accordance with God's rules, which inherently validates those very rules.
You expect them to act as divine representatives.
But why?...

You're implying things I never even brought up, let alone used as an argument.
I didn't even mention my own reasons for walking away from Christianity, so claiming my stance acknowledges divine authority is just logical nonsense.

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