AARP (and related discussions on Swiss Franc loans) (II)

dustysurfer66 said:Can someone break this down for a buddy of mine? He’s... let's just say he's a little slow on the uptake:

June 15, 2018. "No statute of limitations."
https://aarp.org/supreme-court-ruling-interest-rates/

May 3, 2019. "Statute of limitations applies" (effective June 12, 2019).
http://www.forbes.com/business/statute-of-limitations-update

Thanks.

From the first article: "Not a single lawsuit filed for the return of overpaid interest up until June 13, 2019, will be barred by the statute of limitations."

So, there is a statute of limitations, but it specifically targets the overpaid interest.

If we fail to file the lawsuit by June 12th, will the statute of limitations also apply to the loans originally taken out through Wells Fargo—now held by JPMorgan Chase?

Got this from my financial advisor today:

"A quick reminder for anyone holding a JPMorgan Chase (Wells Fargo) loan—don't rush into anything just yet. Hold tight until the Supreme Court of the United States weighs in on these bank audits. There'll be plenty of time to sue JPMorgan Chase for both the interest rate hikes and the exchange rate discrepancies through June 2023."

Logging back in after a massive hiatus just to brag a little bit 😁

I finally received the final judgment regarding my interest rates today, so I'm feeling pretty good... as much as one can feel good about legal battles 😁😁😁

I’m planning to roast a whole bull right in front of the building and invite CNN to film my victory over that stinking Hippopotamus bank

Now I just have to wait for the final ruling on that illegal 3% fee they tacked on when I closed my loan—which I already won at the trial court level. Then there's the ultimate fight to declare the entire contract void, which is only just beginning.

The point of all this is to offer a bit of motivation and hope to anyone still sitting on the fence...

Don't wait.

Nice, congrats 🙂.

A colleague and I actually filed a lawsuit—we’ve already been through way more than you have at this stage 😁

If you don't mind me asking, though—how long did it take from filing the claim until now?

thnx

So, how much did you guys end up shelling out for an attorney, and what’s the actual deal you made with them? You can just DM me if you can't post the specifics publicly. Honestly, I feel like any lawyer I talk to is just trying to skin me alive, so I really need to compare notes here to see if I'm getting ripped off. Thanks.

Timothy Kim9 said:Nice, congrats 🙂.

A colleague and I actually filed a lawsuit—we’ve already been through way more than you have at this stage 😁

If you don't mind me asking, though—how long did it take from filing the claim until now?

thnx

Here’s the breakdown... we got the first-instance ruling within a year—around October of last year. It moved to the appellate level, and we just received the final, binding decision this month. Call it roughly two years.

edit: sometimes they reassign the case to a different judge, which drags things out. That happened to me once... but whatever. Given the interest rates involved, it's still a solid investment.

Bryan Rivera83 said:So, how much did you guys end up shelling out for an attorney, and what’s the actual deal you made with them? You can just DM me if you can't post the specifics publicly. Honestly, I feel like any lawyer I talk to is just trying to skin me alive, so I really need to compare notes here to see if I'm getting ripped off. Thanks.

Every lawyer has their own rate sheet.

I settled on 15% for these two lawsuits.
The big one will cost me 20% of whatever is collected.
On top of that, I’m covering all the court fees and expert witness costs.

Personally... I don't regret a single cent. I’d honestly give him 50% if it came to it. My logic is simple: without him, I’d be walking away with nothing at all.🎉

Look, if I’m not mistaken, the losing side also has to cough up legal fees based on the standard bar association rates. Plus, there's usually an extra percentage tacked onto that as well. Just saying. Thanks.

Bryan Rivera83 said:Look, if I’m not mistaken, the losing side also has to cough up legal fees based on the standard bar association rates. Plus, there's usually an extra percentage tacked onto that as well. Just saying. Thanks.

Why are you so preoccupied with how much the other side is paying him?

Because a decent lawyer is worth their weight in gold...

..I'm happy with mine and have zero interest in trying to "get more than my fair share." My guy delivers... and there are plenty of cheaper options out there.
With stakes this high, I'm not taking risks—especially since the opposition brought out the heavy artillery. I won't name names, but when I filed my last lawsuit, top-tier lawyers showed up just to debate me, and they billed 3% at closing....
I suspect they were paid more than the actual value of the suit itself. It just goes to show how desperate a big bank can be to win a case just so they can brag about it in the news.

Kudos once again, and thanks for the heads-up 🙂

Timothy Kim9 said:Kudos once again, and thanks for the heads-up 🙂

Yeah... I'm sure everyone's just itching to get this over with as fast as possible. 😁😁

so, you thinking about jumping on that lawsuit too?

(maybe once you've wiped all that greasy burger fat off your hands, just write)

Casey Cook10 said:so, you thinking about jumping on that lawsuit too?

(maybe once you've wiped all that greasy burger fat off your hands, just write)

You mean the currency spread?
No. I paid off my loan back in 2014, well before the conversion, so my situation is relatively clean. I sued over the interest rate—aiming for that 3% difference—and eventually filed to have the entire contract declared void. I currently have three separate lawsuits pending.
I won the one regarding the interest. That remaining 3% is sitting at the appellate level now, and I’m waiting on my first hearing regarding the contract's nullity.

You really should have sued over the currency exchange issue too, especially since you finished paying it off before the conversion happened. But honestly, if you’re going after the whole contract being declared void and actually win, there shouldn't be any reason to complain.

From what I understand, once you secure a judgment for those overpaid interest charges and then pivot to suing for total invalidity and win, you end up with the amount you were actually supposed to pay (all those installments plus interest, minus the principal), just offset by whatever they already paid you from the first ruling. So, even if you successfully sued for the currency difference and won, the net gain would just be swallowed up by the difference in the two payouts. In the end, it basically evens out to the same thing.

Sent from mobile

Peter Palmer said:You really should have sued over the currency exchange issue too, especially since you finished paying it off before the conversion happened. But honestly, if you’re going after the whole contract being declared void and actually win, there shouldn't be any reason to complain.

From what I understand, once you secure a judgment for those overpaid interest charges and then pivot to suing for total invalidity and win, you end up with the amount you were actually supposed to pay (all those installments plus interest, minus the principal), just offset by whatever they already paid you from the first ruling. So, even if you successfully sued for the currency difference and won, the net gain would just be swallowed up by the difference in the two payouts. In the end, it basically evens out to the same thing.

Sent from mobile

Clearly I wasn't being clear enough in my previous posts, so my apologies.
That third lawsuit concerns the currency—essentially, making the whole contract null and void.
It’s one and the same thing...
The bank would owe me back every cent I ever gave them, plus penalty interest. If I win the case, I won't owe them a dime because the statute of limitations on their claims against me expired long ago. Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit more.

..and yes... lawsuits don't cancel each other out. Whatever is awarded in each individual case needs to be paid.

Benjamin Jones82 said:Clearly I wasn't being clear enough in my previous posts, so my apologies.
That third lawsuit concerns the currency—essentially, making the whole contract null and void.
It’s one and the same thing...
The bank would owe me back every cent I ever gave them, plus penalty interest. If I win the case, I won't owe them a dime because the statute of limitations on their claims against me expired long ago. Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit more.

..and yes... lawsuits don't cancel each other out. Whatever is awarded in each individual case needs to be paid.

Look, this just isn't right. They aren't the same thing. There's a difference between "void provisions" and a "void contract." In the first case, you're looking at interest rates and currency clauses. In the second, you have a "void contract"—that's when a judge decides the entire agreement can't stand because the core terms are invalid.

So, suing over the currency clause is NOT THE SAME as suing to void the entire contract.

P.S. If you actually win on the grounds of the contract being void, the bank pays out everything you listed, which includes those overpaid interest amounts. Since you've already been paid that, I don't see any way they’d pay you twice for the exact same thing.

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Peter Palmer said:Look, this just isn't right. They aren't the same thing. There's a difference between "void provisions" and a "void contract." In the first case, you're looking at interest rates and currency clauses. In the second, you have a "void contract"—that's when a judge decides the entire agreement can't stand because the core terms are invalid.

So, suing over the currency clause is NOT THE SAME as suing to void the entire contract.

P.S. If you actually win on the grounds of the contract being void, the bank pays out everything you listed, which includes those overpaid interest amounts. Since you've already been paid that, I don't see any way they’d pay you twice for the exact same thing.

Sent from mobile

I'm not a legal scholar; I'm speaking from a consumer's perspective.
I am suing the bank regarding the "currency clause," which effectively leads to seeking the nullification of the whole contract. I don't know how else to put it. I'm using layman's terms when I say it's a lawsuit for nullity.

Regarding point number two... about this overpaid interest being returned to me: I am telling you exactly what my lawyer told me when I asked him the same question you're asking now. It wasn't clear to me either at the time.

These lawsuits don't cancel each other out. If I win the case for contract nullification, I get back every single installment plus late fees calculated for each payment, along with that large lump sum I used to close the loan early—plus interest on that, too.

The fact that I won this specific litigation doesn't prove anything. That's just what my lawyer said. If he's lying, then I suppose I am too.

In any case, I'll let you know in a year who was right.👍

Benjamin Jones82 said:I'm not a legal scholar; I'm speaking from a consumer's perspective.
I am suing the bank regarding the "currency clause," which effectively leads to seeking the nullification of the whole contract. I don't know how else to put it. I'm using layman's terms when I say it's a lawsuit for nullity.

Regarding point number two... about this overpaid interest being returned to me: I am telling you exactly what my lawyer told me when I asked him the same question you're asking now. It wasn't clear to me either at the time.

These lawsuits don't cancel each other out. If I win the case for contract nullification, I get back every single installment plus late fees calculated for each payment, along with that large lump sum I used to close the loan early—plus interest on that, too.

The fact that I won this specific litigation doesn't prove anything. That's just what my lawyer said. If he's lying, then I suppose I am too.

In any case, I'll let you know in a year who was right.👍

Look, I’m no lawyer, and I don't spend my days digging through legal briefs, but let's be honest: people using casual slang to describe serious stuff can get incredibly confusing. 🙂 You’re basically suing to void the entire contract by proving that the currency clause is invalid—arguing that without it, the whole deal falls apart. So, you've got lawsuits targeting specific unenforceable clauses, and then you've got lawsuits aimed at killing the entire agreement altogether. 🙂

Benjamin Jones82 said:I'm not a legal scholar; I'm speaking from a consumer's perspective.
I am suing the bank regarding the "currency clause," which effectively leads to seeking the nullification of the whole contract. I don't know how else to put it. I'm using layman's terms when I say it's a lawsuit for nullity.

Regarding point number two... about this overpaid interest being returned to me: I am telling you exactly what my lawyer told me when I asked him the same question you're asking now. It wasn't clear to me either at the time.

These lawsuits don't cancel each other out. If I win the case for contract nullification, I get back every single installment plus late fees calculated for each payment, along with that large lump sum I used to close the loan early—plus interest on that, too.

The fact that I won this specific litigation doesn't prove anything. That's just what my lawyer said. If he's lying, then I suppose I am too.

In any case, I'll let you know in a year who was right.👍

You might want to run that by a lawyer one more time. Seriously. Let’s say you somehow managed to get the entire contract voided—you think the bank is just going to sit back? They'll be at your door demanding $200 before you can even blink. $0.00So, those numbers came out exactly how you laid it out—the bank is refunding everything paid back, interest and all. Regarding that 200... $0.00, 50 $0.00 It’s all wasted on interest. Those monthly payments you're making already include the interest portions. You guys were already paid out on those interests back when that first court ruling became final.

Look, you guys should have been getting a $50 payout by now. $0.00That’s an extra $150,000 if you win that second lawsuit, bringing the total to $200,000. $0.00Your lawyer is telling you that you’re going to walk away with 250. $0.00Basically, what this means is that the bank will end up owing you about 50 bucks back in overpaid interest. $0.00 Pay twice for the same thing? I wouldn't call that a good deal.

Peter Palmer said:Look, I’m no lawyer, and I don't spend my days digging through legal briefs, but let's be honest: people using casual slang to describe serious stuff can get incredibly confusing. 🙂 You’re basically suing to void the entire contract by proving that the currency clause is invalid—arguing that without it, the whole deal falls apart. So, you've got lawsuits targeting specific unenforceable clauses, and then you've got lawsuits aimed at killing the entire agreement altogether. 🙂

You might want to run that by a lawyer one more time. Seriously. Let’s say you somehow managed to get the entire contract voided—you think the bank is just going to sit back? They'll be at your door demanding $200 before you can even blink. $0.00So, those numbers came out exactly how you laid it out—the bank is refunding everything paid back, interest and all. Regarding that 200... $0.00, 50 $0.00 It’s all wasted on interest. Those monthly payments you're making already include the interest portions. You guys were already paid out on those interests back when that first court ruling became final.

Look, you guys should have been getting a $50 payout by now. $0.00That’s an extra $150,000 if you win that second lawsuit, bringing the total to $200,000. $0.00Your lawyer is telling you that you’re going to walk away with 250. $0.00Basically, what this means is that the bank will end up owing you about 50 bucks back in overpaid interest. $0.00 Pay twice for the same thing? I wouldn't call that a good deal.

So that’s the gist of it... the currency clause is an invalid provision, which nullifies the whole contract. I don't see what the debate is about here. 🤔

Peter Palmer said:Look, I’m no lawyer, and I don't spend my days digging through legal briefs, but let's be honest: people using casual slang to describe serious stuff can get incredibly confusing. 🙂 You’re basically suing to void the entire contract by proving that the currency clause is invalid—arguing that without it, the whole deal falls apart. So, you've got lawsuits targeting specific unenforceable clauses, and then you've got lawsuits aimed at killing the entire agreement altogether. 🙂

You might want to run that by a lawyer one more time. Seriously. Let’s say you somehow managed to get the entire contract voided—you think the bank is just going to sit back? They'll be at your door demanding $200 before you can even blink. $0.00So, those numbers came out exactly how you laid it out—the bank is refunding everything paid back, interest and all. Regarding that 200... $0.00, 50 $0.00 It’s all wasted on interest. Those monthly payments you're making already include the interest portions. You guys were already paid out on those interests back when that first court ruling became final.

Look, you guys should have been getting a $50 payout by now. $0.00That’s an extra $150,000 if you win that second lawsuit, bringing the total to $200,000. $0.00Your lawyer is telling you that you’re going to walk away with 250. $0.00Basically, what this means is that the bank will end up owing you about 50 bucks back in overpaid interest. $0.00 Pay twice for the same thing? I wouldn't call that a good deal.

I appreciate the effort to break down the math, but it wasn't necessary. I get your point, which is exactly why I already asked my attorney—and I've given you the answer I received.
Anyway, I'll check back in a year, or as soon as the court-appointed expert report comes in. I'm just as interested in the outcome as anyone else.