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Religion classes in school - Megathread

Started by Susan James · · 👁 98 views · 3K replies

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urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2121 ·
I don't really give them a second thought, to be honest.

I suppose I'm not entirely sure what you're hoping to get out of people who are basically:
a) deeply devout types who follow every word from the pulpit and the clergy without question,
b) folks who aren't even religious, but just prefer to go with the flow and follow whatever the crowd is doing,

they aren't exactly going to start a revolution against their spiritual leaders, now are they? goodness knows.
in a situation like this, they’ll likely just stay quiet, almost as if they were being held under a spell.

I don't see much point in complaining about people like that; if anything, I kind of miss the simplicity of it.
And I generally try not to pay any mind to their opinions unless they actually end up affecting me personally. I mean, you can't really change the way someone is wired, no matter how hard you try, I guess.
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#2122 ·
It seems like you aren't bothered by much; you probably live under the impression that nothing actually impacts you or your life.
Personally, it gets to me—what I find hardest is seeing how this kind of mindset is passed down to children.
To me, the people who stay silent are always more disgusting than the actual abusers.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2123 ·
rowdypanther12 said:It seems like you aren't bothered by much; you probably live under the impression that nothing actually impacts you or your life.
Personally, it gets to me—what I find hardest is seeing how this kind of mindset is passed down to children.
To me, the people who stay silent are always more disgusting than the actual abusers.

I wouldn't say I'm living in an illusion, because, through a messy web of circumstances, I happen to find myself right at the center of most parent-child dynamics, so I see exactly how things play out—it's not like I'm blind, deaf, or slow to catch on.
It’s just that, a long time ago, I stopped believing that I could single-handedly sway the masses or shift the collective consciousness of the country. I'm not Don Quixote, and I don't particularly care to be.
As for my own life, large-scale social trends affect me only as much as they absolutely have to, or perhaps just as much as I decide to let them.
And honestly, I'm doing alright with that.
I have nothing but contempt for the abusers, but I feel a certain pity for those who just stay quiet and endure it.
I don't feel any particular urge to change either group, I suppose; everyone eventually chooses their own path.
Peter Doyle2 Peter Doyle2 Active Member
170 messages
joined May 2012
#2124 ·
So, you live in a country where a kid gets arrested just because he was heckling some "Republican crooks" down at the pier or wherever.
And then you’ve got this guy in a public school openly spewing hate speech—and I mean real hate speech—and everyone’s just kind of like, "Well, we knew the wolves would eventually eat the sheep," right? Seriously?
Is there really no way to actually stop this kind of thing? There aren't any USA institutions to turn to, nothing, since it’s pretty obvious that American law enforcement and agencies either can't or simply won't do anything about it.
Does nobody actually feel the urge to step up? Everyone seems so quick to shrug their shoulders with that "Oh, it’s not my kid / not my school / not my problem" attitude, even though you all know this could happen anywhere, anytime.

(Just to be clear, I don't live in the States and my kid will never attend an American school, so please don't go accusing me of not doing enough. I did. I moved away from there, which is probably why things like this seem even more unbelievable to me from this distance).
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#2125 ·
I don't really hold a grudge against them. I tend to focus my energy on calling out the abusers instead, mostly because they're often broken people who probably went through some heavy stuff themselves.
The ones who just stay silent are the real problem. It’s the silence that truly bothers me.
Matthew Young35 Matthew Young35 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jan 2018
#2126 ·
Peter Doyle2 said:So, you live in a country where a kid gets arrested just because he was heckling some "Republican crooks" down at the pier or wherever.
And then you’ve got this guy in a public school openly spewing hate speech—and I mean real hate speech—and everyone’s just kind of like, "Well, we knew the wolves would eventually eat the sheep," right? Seriously?
Is there really no way to actually stop this kind of thing? There aren't any USA institutions to turn to, nothing, since it’s pretty obvious that American law enforcement and agencies either can't or simply won't do anything about it.
Does nobody actually feel the urge to step up? Everyone seems so quick to shrug their shoulders with that "Oh, it’s not my kid / not my school / not my problem" attitude, even though you all know this could happen anywhere, anytime.

(Just to be clear, I don't live in the States and my kid will never attend an American school, so please don't go accusing me of not doing enough. I did. I moved away from there, which is probably why things like this seem even more unbelievable to me from this distance).

And what exactly am I supposed to do?
Go stand in the middle of Times Square and scream? A police patrol would just show up and haul me away.

To actually mount any kind of resistance, you need organization. A political party, a union, something. Which party? Those clowns from the Green Party? The Democratic Party? The Libertarian Party?
And unions? They're even worse.

I was there during the protests against the gas tax, and I was there when the unions organized a demonstration that resulted in Harmon dragging 17,000 police officers into the square.
Look, I'm just a nobody. Who is going to listen to me?
My only option is to move away. The wild ones arrived, and now they've chased off the civilized ones.

That's how most citizens think.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2127 ·
Peter Doyle2 said:So, you live in a country where a kid gets arrested just because he was heckling some "Republican crooks" down at the pier or wherever.
And then you’ve got this guy in a public school openly spewing hate speech—and I mean real hate speech—and everyone’s just kind of like, "Well, we knew the wolves would eventually eat the sheep," right? Seriously?
Is there really no way to actually stop this kind of thing? There aren't any USA institutions to turn to, nothing, since it’s pretty obvious that American law enforcement and agencies either can't or simply won't do anything about it.
Does nobody actually feel the urge to step up? Everyone seems so quick to shrug their shoulders with that "Oh, it’s not my kid / not my school / not my problem" attitude, even though you all know this could happen anywhere, anytime.

(Just to be clear, I don't live in the States and my kid will never attend an American school, so please don't go accusing me of not doing enough. I did. I moved away from there, which is probably why things like this seem even more unbelievable to me from this distance).

We all know your story, and I completely support your decision; I get that moving was the best thing for you, especially since things like this used to drive you absolutely crazy. I'm glad you managed to make your dream a reality.👍

However, if you'll permit me, I really couldn't care less about the daily political nonsense and all those various outbursts.
I know karma might come knocking for me tomorrow, but honestly, I'm not even thinking about it.
In my life, it's just not an option to let myself get worked up over idiots, whether they're nearby or halfway across the country.
I'm living a perfectly fine life, and the thought of spending my time visiting courthouses or organizing protests doesn't even cross my mind.
I prefer to spend my energy and my time on much more interesting things in life.
Matthew Young35 Matthew Young35 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jan 2018
#2128 ·
rowdypanther12 said:I don't really hold a grudge against them. I tend to focus my energy on calling out the abusers instead, mostly because they're often broken people who probably went through some heavy stuff themselves.
The ones who just stay silent are the real problem. It’s the silence that truly bothers me.

But what if they aren't "broken"? What if they're just ordinary abusers? There are plenty of people like that out there.
Susan James Susan James VeteranOP
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#2129 ·
hiddendriver34 said:Teachers aren't signing some blood oath in the faculty lounge to protect one another.

The vibe in a teachers' lounge is just like any other workplace in the States—people have their favorites, they have their rivals, they grab coffee and gossip. I don't see any reason why a group of teachers would go out of their way to tank a student's grades just because that kid blew the whistle on a colleague!😲 Do you honestly think that's how it works? That they'd sabotage a kid just out of "loyalty" to a coworker?!

Well, it isn't just about loyalty, 🤣
public institutions often work in a way where you either have people stabbing you in the back because they have nothing better to do, or everyone protects each other because everyone has a "favor" to call in. It's that "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" mentality—better to stick together and cover for one another.

Nobody is saying teachers will actively target students with bad grades, but there is a very real fear of making waves. If you speak up, you might feel the fallout in other areas. For example, if you testify that a teacher actually said something inappropriate, there's a risk that their colleague might grill you with tricky questions during an oral exam—like in Physics, for instance (didn't they mention they should have reported the Physics teacher since not everyone gets straight A's in his class🤔)?
There's that fear of what others will say, how they'll look at you...

Of course, it can go the other way too; teachers might feel pressured to give better grades to those who step forward just so they don't end up being the ones scrutinized. 😂

And sure, both you and I dream of a perfectly fair society where one professor's actions shouldn't influence anyone else's behavior, but experience tells us that in America, it doesn't always work that way, and who knows if it ever will.
I think we need to have an honest conversation about the human dilemmas involved: why things don't get reported, why people don't fight back, and why, during those big curriculum protests, most parents still ended up showing up to the PTA meetings (which could have been canceled altogether)...

Most of the kids and parents fall into the "don't rock the boat" category.
That’s why they sign up for religion classes. We're seeing a situation right now where kids signed up for religion just by inertia—everyone else was doing it, so they did too. They liked the teacher, or he seemed fun (judging by the photos going around), or he handed out easy A's (that's what some kids mentioned in an article). Who can blame these kids for not wanting to cause trouble? They're in shock. They don't realize how damaging this person's teaching actually was, because like any predator, he knew how to charm them. Now, they feel like they've been betrayed because one kid had the guts to report him, making them all feel like they're on the losing side.

When someone is out on a boat in a calm, sunny sea and a storm hits, sweeping them into the water, even if they know how to swim, the sheer terror of nearly drowning leaves a mark. The cognitive and emotional aftermath can last for days.
They went from a place of total security to a world that feels unsafe.

The kids in that class (except for the few who realize how harmful the teacher's rhetoric was) have experienced genuine trauma from being exposed to aggressive content and hate speech. They've lost their image of the "cool teacher" and those easy A's.
And now they'll have to deal with even more stress, potentially being re-traumatized when they have to testify.
Man, that's just life.

The media is spinning this narrative that parents are preventing their kids from testifying, rather than just explaining the actual legal process. In reality, there’s a specific procedure where parents are called to request witnesses—including children—and parents have the legal right to decline having their child give a statement about what happened during that specific hour for various reasons.

On top of that, the police can call in any other witnesses they need, whether it's school staff or students from other classes mentioned in the initial report, or anyone else whose names come up during the investigation.

At the end of the day, the news outlets that were the first to jump on the story about students being "forbidden" from testifying clearly had an agenda—they were trying to intimidate people. Nobody wants to be the center of attention here, so please, don't go looking for trouble by making too much noise. 😬
(I am honestly curious if this whole thing was leaked on the principal's orders or by his lawyers—and they aren't exactly unknown figures. As a parent, I'd be asking myself if I really wanted my kid exposed to those people.)

I'm teaching my child that being a witness to something and reporting it to supervisors or the police is part of being a responsible citizen.
Whether it's misconduct at school or something more dangerous out on the road, any information provided to the police or the courts can be vital.

With that in mind, if my child had been there during that period, I would absolutely give her permission to testify via video link. She should just recount exactly what she saw and heard. Whether that leads to the teacher facing consequences is entirely up to the judge, not her.
The teacher is the one who messed up, and he should be the one held accountable, not the students who spoke up.

I can empathize with parents who are scared or just don't want to cause friction—especially since it's the end of middle school and some have younger siblings still in the building. But at the same time, this sends a really dangerous message: that covering up wrongdoing is acceptable, or that it's okay to flee the scene of an incident and just wait for things to blow over (or worse, for the case to be dropped entirely).
Peter Doyle2 Peter Doyle2 Active Member
170 messages
joined May 2012
#2130 ·
Look, urbantinker8, you have a kid. One day—today or tomorrow—they could face this exact same situation. They could end up with a teacher just like this one, screaming those same things in class, and you’ll be sick to your stomach because everyone else will just shrug and say, "not my problem." Then they’ll start sending your child messages about how they’re going to get them in serious trouble. Are you really just going to sit there and let that happen?
Since you work in a school, I'd assume you'd realize more than anyone just how broken this whole system is. How can you still be so unbothered by it?

Matthew Young35, I didn't say you should go out and start shouting in Times Square. I was just asking—is there really no USA institution, for instance, where this could be reported? Is there truly no other way besides "shouting"?

I mean, at some point, something has to give. Something has to break or change. It’s certainly not going to happen just by watching from the sidelines. Who knows? Maybe your letter to a USA institution might actually be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2131 ·
Peter Doyle2 said:Look, urbantinker8, you have a kid. One day—today or tomorrow—they could face this exact same situation. They could end up with a teacher just like this one, screaming those same things in class, and you’ll be sick to your stomach because everyone else will just shrug and say, "not my problem." Then they’ll start sending your child messages about how they’re going to get them in serious trouble. Are you really just going to sit there and let that happen?
Since you work in a school, I'd assume you'd realize more than anyone just how broken this whole system is. How can you still be so unbothered by it?

Matthew Young35, I didn't say you should go out and start shouting in Times Square. I was just asking—is there really no USA institution, for instance, where this could be reported? Is there truly no other way besides "shouting"?

I mean, at some point, something has to give. Something has to break or change. It’s certainly not going to happen just by watching from the sidelines. Who knows? Maybe your letter to a USA institution might actually be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The state is a mess, though I suppose our education system is actually a bit of a dream compared to some other systems out there, at least from an insider's perspective. 😉
If some jerk starts saying stuff like that in my kid's classroom, I guess I’d start a full-blown revolt and fight until everything was finally sorted out. I wouldn't just be the last one standing there quietly letting someone try to shut me up.
I’d try to resolve it using every legal avenue available, and honestly, I'd be perfectly willing to move my kid to a different school if I couldn't get things cleaned up properly.
But as for me supporting these half-hearted protests from people who aren't even sure if they'd actually speak up or just stay quiet... no way, Jose.
Looking at the specifics: they chose the religion elective themselves. They realized very quickly what kind of teacher they were dealing with. They had the option to pull their kid from the course entirely, and they could have supported the outcry that started.
Instead, now they're signing petitions to get that same jerk back in the classroom. 🤦

I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to support here.

I guess you reap what you sow. 🤷
Matthew Young35 Matthew Young35 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jan 2018
#2132 ·
Peter Doyle2 said:Look, urbantinker8, you have a kid. One day—today or tomorrow—they could face this exact same situation. They could end up with a teacher just like this one, screaming those same things in class, and you’ll be sick to your stomach because everyone else will just shrug and say, "not my problem." Then they’ll start sending your child messages about how they’re going to get them in serious trouble. Are you really just going to sit there and let that happen?
Since you work in a school, I'd assume you'd realize more than anyone just how broken this whole system is. How can you still be so unbothered by it?

Matthew Young35, I didn't say you should go out and start shouting in Times Square. I was just asking—is there really no USA institution, for instance, where this could be reported? Is there truly no other way besides "shouting"?

I mean, at some point, something has to give. Something has to break or change. It’s certainly not going to happen just by watching from the sidelines. Who knows? Maybe your letter to a USA institution might actually be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Which European Union institution are we even talking about here? What specific agency would bother meddling in the American school system? Or in the Vatican educational system, since we are actually dealing with the Vatican here rather than the United States.
Turning to the American courts is a pretty futile exercise. Even if you took this footage to a court or some federal agency, nothing would change. Honestly, the most likely outcome would just be the local Diocese moving the individual to a different school.
It’s no wonder American citizens have lost almost all faith in their institutions. It's a fair assessment, really.
Susan James Susan James VeteranOP
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#2133 ·
Michelle Nelson4 said:It really depends on the specific neighborhood and the individual school, so I’d definitely suggest checking in locally to see how things are handled in your district. In our local elementary school, about 7 out of 24 first graders didn't attend. By second and third grade, a couple of those kids moved away, but two more decided to opt out too, so we still have 7 students skipping the sessions. During those periods, they usually hang out in the library or in a teacher's classroom (mostly using the time to catch up on math homework). Starting in third grade, the school schedules that block at the very beginning or end of the day, so those kids often just head home early.👍

I'm enrolling my younger one in school right now, and naturally, he won't be attending religion classes either, even if he ends up being the only one left in the room.😉

Yeah, it varies quite a bit depending on the area, the school, and even the specific group of students—what you see in the suburbs is often very different from what you see in the city.
One thing I’ve noticed happens a lot is that once some kids see even just one other student opting out, it makes it much easier for them to decide to skip it too.

But there's still this clear pattern where schools would rather have a handful of non-participating kids in every single classroom instead of reducing the teacher's hours, even when all the classes share the same foreign language elective or after-school program.

Anyway, the reason I was asking is because I recently found out that religion teachers can move up to mentor status after only two years on the job, whereas regular teachers or specialists need at least six. They can even become advisors after three years, while us "regular mortals" have to wait at least eleven! I also learned that based on various evaluation criteria—which are suggested by JPMorgan Chase rather than the Department of Education—one of the big ways they rack up points for higher pay grades is by the number of students interested in their subject. Specifically, they look at how many students stick with it, which is officially described as "student and parent engagement." 😍
You also have to factor in student success, which is measured, naturally, by grades (🤦). So, you get this flood of straight A's helping them secure those titles for higher salaries (not to mention that whole religious competition circus).

Now I'm just waiting for that one religion teacher who pops in here occasionally to bring more info about their promotions and convince us that they’re actually advancing professionally and deserve those pay raises.

When the next round of union negotiations comes up regarding those hefty teacher salaries, I really hope they discuss faster advancement tracks for certain subjects. I don't want to overstate it for everyone, but if we want to keep computer science teachers in our schools with decent pay, they should probably be eligible for mentor status after year one and advisor status after year two.
driftinggull83 driftinggull83 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Jun 2018
#2134 ·
😠 I already know his two little friends are planning on taking religion class. At what stage of the school enrollment process do we actually decide on that subject? And how am I supposed to find out how many kids are signing up or opting out? My husband is dead set on our child skipping it, and I’m the parent you guys were just talking about (so please, don't start with me)
good grief 🕺
wanderingbadger77 wanderingbadger77 Active Member
100 messages
joined Oct 2018
#2135 ·
rowdypanther12 said:My main point is just that I’m frustrated with people who refuse to step up and take a stand.
It bothers me when people won't shake things up or teach their kids to hold their heads high instead of just blending into the background.
I really can't stand how some people lack any backbone, and then they turn around and pass that same passivity down to their children.

You can talk all the crap you want. It's easy to beat someone else's ...eggs when you're sitting comfortably at home running internet revolutions.

There's no way you'd actually put your own kid through the stress of a police interrogation or live with the guilt over some wrongly spoken word.
Life has taught me that the ones making the most noise usually have the least to show for it.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2136 ·
driftinggull83 said:😠 I already know his two little friends are planning on taking religion class. At what stage of the school enrollment process do we actually decide on that subject? And how am I supposed to find out how many kids are signing up or opting out? My husband is dead set on our child skipping it, and I’m the parent you guys were just talking about (so please, don't start with me)
good grief 🕺

You make the decision regarding religious education right when you're enrolling them in school.
And it isn't really something you choose based on trying to avoid drama, or whether their little buddies are signing up or not; I mean, it's usually more about personal conviction, for goodness sake.
Susan James Susan James VeteranOP
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#2137 ·
wanderingbadger77 said:You can talk all the crap you want. It's easy to beat someone else's ...eggs when you're sitting comfortably at home running internet revolutions.

There's no way you'd actually put your own kid through the stress of a police interrogation or live with the guilt over some wrongly spoken word.
Life has taught me that the ones making the most noise usually have the least to show for it.

What kind of guilt comes from just getting a word wrong? 😕

If you're testifying, I assume you aren't lying. In fact, you're legally obligated to tell the truth.
It's perfectly fine to stumble over your words or lose your train of thought.

As long as you're telling the truth, any penalty is determined by the judge, not by the witness. The person who actually committed the crime is the one responsible for their own actions and should face the consequences accordingly.
A witness is simply there to help the process move along and ensure justice is served quickly.
Susan James Susan James VeteranOP
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#2138 ·
driftinggull83 said:😠 I already know his two little friends are planning on taking religion class. At what stage of the school enrollment process do we actually decide on that subject? And how am I supposed to find out how many kids are signing up or opting out? My husband is dead set on our child skipping it, and I’m the parent you guys were just talking about (so please, don't start with me)
good grief 🕺

The only way to really know is if you happen to know someone who isn't taking it. Then, if they ask you to pick a teacher or a buddy, you can just request to be in the same group as that friend—that way you’re pretty sure there will be at least two of them. That’s actually what I did, though it turned out there were way more kids skipping it in the other parallel class anyway. 😂

Birthday parties (which I've never been a huge fan of) are actually a great way to gather intel.
Public schools tend to be pretty protective of their data regarding who opts out, and sometimes they even give you a vague answer like, "Oh, everyone who signed up is attending."

From my own experience, it is much easier to sign them up later than it is to withdraw them once they're already enrolled (since you usually have to wait until the end of the school year to opt out).
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2139 ·
Susan James said:The only way to really know is if you happen to know someone who isn't taking it. Then, if they ask you to pick a teacher or a buddy, you can just request to be in the same group as that friend—that way you’re pretty sure there will be at least two of them. That’s actually what I did, though it turned out there were way more kids skipping it in the other parallel class anyway. 😂

Birthday parties (which I've never been a huge fan of) are actually a great way to gather intel.
Public schools tend to be pretty protective of their data regarding who opts out, and sometimes they even give you a vague answer like, "Oh, everyone who signed up is attending."

From my own experience, it is much easier to sign them up later than it is to withdraw them once they're already enrolled (since you usually have to wait until the end of the school year to opt out).

Does it really matter that much to you guys, who is going and who isn't, or how many people are in this group versus that one..? 😲
I mean, that explains a lot about people, I suppose, but I still find it a bit hard to wrap my head around. 🤔

When I was doing the whole enrollment process, I felt like I could have asked about absolutely anything, especially since I had two inside connections I could lean on to get the real scoop on teachers, religious studies classes, room assignments, all that stuff.
It wasn't that I didn't ask anything, it's more that I didn't want to push too hard to make sure he ended up with his old preschool buddies.
As it turned out, he was actually the only one from his little preschool group in his entire class; the rest of the kids were spread out among the other classrooms.
And honestly, I don't regret it one bit. He's made both old and new friends now and seems perfectly happy. It couldn't have worked out better, and I'm actually quite glad I didn't try to rig things in his favor. 🙏
Jacob Lopez2 Jacob Lopez2 Active Member
63 messages
joined Apr 2021
#2140 ·
driftinggull83 said:😠 I already know his two little friends are planning on taking religion class. At what stage of the school enrollment process do we actually decide on that subject? And how am I supposed to find out how many kids are signing up or opting out? My husband is dead set on our child skipping it, and I’m the parent you guys were just talking about (so please, don't start with me)
good grief 🕺

Well, if you're going to cause trouble, you should probably just side with your husband instead of some random mom from down the street.

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