Religion classes in school - Megathread

Susan James said:I think you completely misunderstood my point😉

I'm not asking to swap out a song about clover for some religious hymn; those are already in the curriculum, and there's no need to add more.
Besides, there is a massive difference between teaching about various cultures and diversities—to enrich someone's general knowledge—and actually doing prayers during class.
Massive.
Neither prayer nor blessings have a place in a public institution, but exploring different cultural contents through various forms of art is always welcome.

😁Don't you worry, I understood your post just fine; if anything, maybe you didn't quite digest everything I said in my response😉

Our preferences are what they are, right? And honestly, in my book, there isn't much of a difference between learning a little song about a lucky clover and reciting any kind of prayer... they're all just pieces of cultural heritage that might actually end up being useful to you one day in your life.

And since the government is the one that brought prayer and blessings into these public institutions in the first place, it's pretty obvious they belong there, whether we personally agree with it or not... I mean, you can't just live in someone else's apartment and decide to grab a book off their shelf and toss it in the basement or out on the curb just because it doesn't sit right with you, can you? Because at that point, you aren't exactly practicing "respect for diversity" anymore, no matter how much you talk about it.😉

Lawrence Torres56 said:😁Don't you worry, I understood your post just fine; if anything, maybe you didn't quite digest everything I said in my response😉

Our preferences are what they are, right? And honestly, in my book, there isn't much of a difference between learning a little song about a lucky clover and reciting any kind of prayer... they're all just pieces of cultural heritage that might actually end up being useful to you one day in your life.

And since the government is the one that brought prayer and blessings into these public institutions in the first place, it's pretty obvious they belong there, whether we personally agree with it or not... I mean, you can't just live in someone else's apartment and decide to grab a book off their shelf and toss it in the basement or out on the curb just because it doesn't sit right with you, can you? Because at that point, you aren't exactly practicing "respect for diversity" anymore, no matter how much you talk about it.😉

How exactly is prayer "universally useful"? Or is it really any more helpful than a voodoo ritual, bowing toward Mecca, Buddhist meditation, or some Wiccan ceremony thanking Mother Nature? And what makes it hold more cultural value than a song about Santa Claus or a classic Coca-Cola Christmas commercial?
And look, we aren't sharing an apartment here. We share the same federal institutions. There’s a massive distinction there. The government should treat everyone equally and show respect to all. In your own home—which seems to be the argument being made over and over here—you can do whatever you want.

Prayer can be pretty useful sometimes—like if you go to early morning services, you might get a free pass to go ice skating in a place like Chicago, for instance.
And honestly, kids raised without religion shouldn't feel left out at all. No one is stopping them from joining in on those early services if they want to, or just paying for a ticket to hit the rink and skate.
It’s not like anyone is banning them from having fun on the ice.
I truly mean that.

You’ll find all sorts of wild theories floating around here—for instance, the idea that kids attending religious education during an alternative shift are somehow in mortal danger (assuming it's a Catholic course, of course; the others don't count).
Or take the argument that if the government decides it’s perfectly fine to permit prayers and blessings in schools, then we just have to roll with it because "that's the law." It really makes you wonder, though: is there anything a government could decree that *isn't* acceptable? I mean, certain historical examples involving concentration camps immediately come to mind when you hear the phrase "the state has decided"—but hey, who are we to question the state, right?
Besides, we've already learned that a blessing from an atheist is perfectly harmless; nobody ever died from one. I can already see the next big initiative coming from the University of Iowa—mandatory baptisms in maternity wards for little American boys and American girls, since no one has ever been harmed by a baptism, so why bother complaining?

And apparently, moral upbringing only happens during religious studies. If your child doesn't attend those classes, they're destined to hate, steal, lie... (you get the picture)

I’d honestly just put this whole thread on ignore, but I feel like it's important to stay aware of the kind of people we're sharing this supposedly "flawless" country with. It makes it pretty obvious why things are the way they are...

Michelle Nelson4 said:You’ll find all sorts of wild theories floating around here—for instance, the idea that kids attending religious education during an alternative shift are somehow in mortal danger (assuming it's a Catholic course, of course; the others don't count).
Or take the argument that if the government decides it’s perfectly fine to permit prayers and blessings in schools, then we just have to roll with it because "that's the law." It really makes you wonder, though: is there anything a government could decree that *isn't* acceptable? I mean, certain historical examples involving concentration camps immediately come to mind when you hear the phrase "the state has decided"—but hey, who are we to question the state, right?
Besides, we've already learned that a blessing from an atheist is perfectly harmless; nobody ever died from one. I can already see the next big initiative coming from the University of Iowa—mandatory baptisms in maternity wards for little American boys and American girls, since no one has ever been harmed by a baptism, so why bother complaining?

And apparently, moral upbringing only happens during religious studies. If your child doesn't attend those classes, they're destined to hate, steal, lie... (you get the picture)

I’d honestly just put this whole thread on ignore, but I feel like it's important to stay aware of the kind of people we're sharing this supposedly "flawless" country with. It makes it pretty obvious why things are the way they are...

And if I were to continue that list... as one member here who is quite pro-religious studies put it (to use her own words): ''scientific facts don't actually exist, and what science claims to be true today might be proven completely wrong tomorrow.''

Maybe we should just settle on the idea that the Earth is a flat disc, that when it thunders, Saint Elijah is driving his car through the clouds in a fit of rage, that airplanes fly because angels carry them, that snow falls simply because it has no stairs to walk down, and that pneumonia is merely a direct consequence of God's will... That's how we should be explaining things to children in school. Just toss science, scientific progress, and the entire methodology of research out the window. We might as well shut down every university and research institute in the country, since they're essentially useless if scientific facts aren't real and if those crazy scientists are constantly "changing things and overthinking everything."

Michelle Nelson4 said:You’ll find all sorts of wild theories floating around here—for instance, the idea that kids attending religious education during an alternative shift are somehow in mortal danger (assuming it's a Catholic course, of course; the others don't count).
Or take the argument that if the government decides it’s perfectly fine to permit prayers and blessings in schools, then we just have to roll with it because "that's the law." It really makes you wonder, though: is there anything a government could decree that *isn't* acceptable? I mean, certain historical examples involving concentration camps immediately come to mind when you hear the phrase "the state has decided"—but hey, who are we to question the state, right?
Besides, we've already learned that a blessing from an atheist is perfectly harmless; nobody ever died from one. I can already see the next big initiative coming from the University of Iowa—mandatory baptisms in maternity wards for little American boys and American girls, since no one has ever been harmed by a baptism, so why bother complaining?

And apparently, moral upbringing only happens during religious studies. If your child doesn't attend those classes, they're destined to hate, steal, lie... (you get the picture)

I’d honestly just put this whole thread on ignore, but I feel like it's important to stay aware of the kind of people we're sharing this supposedly "flawless" country with. It makes it pretty obvious why things are the way they are...

Are you suggesting that because nobody has died from baptism or sprinkling water, we shouldn't worry? What if someone actually contracted an infection from contaminated holy water during a sacrament or a blessing? 😁
Perhaps you should do a bit of research into what those who randomly tested the microbiological quality of holy water in church vessels actually discovered. 😬

Otherwise, it seems moral upbringing only happens during religious education classes. If you don't send your child to those classes, they just hate, steal, and lie... (you get the idea).

Back in my school, kids would tease a classmate specifically because he was Eastern Orthodox. They could have easily picked on him for other things—like being from a low-income family, not being "American" enough, or even just being overweight—but they didn't follow those patterns. He was singled out solely because of his faith. 🙂

Lawrence Torres56 said:Sorry rustydrifter10, I just can't see eye to eye with you on this one...
Look, let’s be real for a second: "scientific facts" aren't some permanent, etched-in-stone truth, right? What the scientific community is shouting from the rooftops today could easily turn out to be a complete and utter joke by tomorrow. It happens all the time. And don't even get me started on this whole health education movement—it’s got nothing to do with actual science. It’s just pure ideology being shoved down our throats, which honestly isn't any better or worse than someone trying to sell you on religious dogma. It's all just different flavors of the same thing, really.
And why on earth shouldn't we be having this debate? Seriously, what's actually true about those tired old claims that blue is somehow "for boys" or that kids are supposed to act fundamentally different just because of their gender? I mean, sorry, but personally, I find that whole mindset totally unacceptable. We’re living in a world where guys and girls both go for smooth legs, where color preferences haven't mattered for decades, and where we expect both boys and girls to step up and handle household chores equally, right? It's all just so outdated.

Let’s be real for a second—every single thing we think we know about Jesus is basically just high-level guesswork at this point, isn't it?

If you ask me, most of the stuff we tell ourselves—all those little stories we spin to justify our lives and convince our kids that everything is under control—is honestly just pure guesswork, isn't it?😁 I honestly just don't get the desperate need to go full ad hominem all of a sudden... like, is it really that hard to actually address the point being made instead of just taking a cheap shot at the person?

It’s honestly such a ridiculous situation when a kid shows up to school and they’re basically forced into this impossible choice—do they join the school assembly and ceremony, or do they just wander around aimlessly? When my kids were back in elementary school, we had this exact same headache every single year; right at the start of the term, the whole school would head out to a service for a blessing sometime mid-morning. And let me tell you, all the complaining from parents didn't do squat to change anything. The kids were stuck between a rock and a hard place: they could either go to the service along with everyone else, or they could just loiter around the school grounds, which wasn't even fenced in! It was sketchy, really, because they weren't even allowed to stay inside the building since, apparently, "nobody is around because everyone is at the service." It’s just a total mess, especially for those little ones in the lower grades who shouldn't be left to fend for themselves like that.

Look, obviously this kind of stuff is a massive problem and someone needs to step up and put a stop to it once and for all. Even as a believer myself, I can't wrap my head around why any kid would be wandering the streets alone while mine is home receiving a blessing... I mean, kids should be our absolute top priority, right? They’re the ones we as adults have a moral obligation to protect at all costs. But hey, it looks like people actually spoke up because those complaints clearly worked—that issue isn't even around anymore. As far as I know, students don't really have anything to do outside of school hours unless they're supervised by a teacher... and even in the lower grades, they aren't allowed to be left on their own during religious studies classes; there always has to be an adult watching over them. In my experience, it’s usually just their specific classroom teacher handling it, and from what I hear, that seems to be the standard across most schools in the US too.

Look, I get why some people are making a huge deal out of this, but honestly? It’s clearly an issue for at least a few folks. I mean, why on earth would you single kids out like that? Why drag them into situations they don't even have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around yet? Is it really such a massive problem for religious parents to take their child to a local church for a blessing, especially when that’s exactly where they belong?

Of course some people are going to take issue with this—it’s a given that there will always be someone complaining about something, isn't there? That's just how it goes. But what I actually find problematic is the way certain things are being hinted at here on the forum instead of being addressed where they can actually be fixed, especially if we're talking about something that might end up hurting our kids...
And look, we really shouldn't be playing into this whole division regarding blessings either, right? We can't go around stirring the pot and then turn around and try to play both sides when it comes to health education... because honestly, that’s exactly how you leave them feeling completely lost and confused. If we already saw how much resentment and hate those kinds of tactics caused before, why on earth would we want to pull that same stunt on our own children?🤷

Wait, are you actually being serious right now? Do you even know what science is, or have you ever even looked into how its methods actually work? Science changes its mind based on new evidence, and honestly, that ability to pivot is one of the clearest signs of intelligent thinking. It’s the exact opposite of people who stubbornly cling to an idea regardless of reality—you know, like religious groups or just plain old fools.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Sorry rustydrifter10, I just can't see eye to eye with you on this one...
Look, let’s be real for a second: "scientific facts" aren't some permanent, etched-in-stone truth, right? What the scientific community is shouting from the rooftops today could easily turn out to be a complete and utter joke by tomorrow. It happens all the time. And don't even get me started on this whole health education movement—it’s got nothing to do with actual science. It’s just pure ideology being shoved down our throats, which honestly isn't any better or worse than someone trying to sell you on religious dogma. It's all just different flavors of the same thing, really.
And why on earth shouldn't we be having this debate? Seriously, what's actually true about those tired old claims that blue is somehow "for boys" or that kids are supposed to act fundamentally different just because of their gender? I mean, sorry, but personally, I find that whole mindset totally unacceptable. We’re living in a world where guys and girls both go for smooth legs, where color preferences haven't mattered for decades, and where we expect both boys and girls to step up and handle household chores equally, right? It's all just so outdated.

Let’s be real for a second—every single thing we think we know about Jesus is basically just high-level guesswork at this point, isn't it?

If you ask me, most of the stuff we tell ourselves—all those little stories we spin to justify our lives and convince our kids that everything is under control—is honestly just pure guesswork, isn't it?😁 I honestly just don't get the desperate need to go full ad hominem all of a sudden... like, is it really that hard to actually address the point being made instead of just taking a cheap shot at the person?

It’s honestly such a ridiculous situation when a kid shows up to school and they’re basically forced into this impossible choice—do they join the school assembly and ceremony, or do they just wander around aimlessly? When my kids were back in elementary school, we had this exact same headache every single year; right at the start of the term, the whole school would head out to a service for a blessing sometime mid-morning. And let me tell you, all the complaining from parents didn't do squat to change anything. The kids were stuck between a rock and a hard place: they could either go to the service along with everyone else, or they could just loiter around the school grounds, which wasn't even fenced in! It was sketchy, really, because they weren't even allowed to stay inside the building since, apparently, "nobody is around because everyone is at the service." It’s just a total mess, especially for those little ones in the lower grades who shouldn't be left to fend for themselves like that.

Look, obviously this kind of stuff is a massive problem and someone needs to step up and put a stop to it once and for all. Even as a believer myself, I can't wrap my head around why any kid would be wandering the streets alone while mine is home receiving a blessing... I mean, kids should be our absolute top priority, right? They’re the ones we as adults have a moral obligation to protect at all costs. But hey, it looks like people actually spoke up because those complaints clearly worked—that issue isn't even around anymore. As far as I know, students don't really have anything to do outside of school hours unless they're supervised by a teacher... and even in the lower grades, they aren't allowed to be left on their own during religious studies classes; there always has to be an adult watching over them. In my experience, it’s usually just their specific classroom teacher handling it, and from what I hear, that seems to be the standard across most schools in the US too.

Look, I get why some people are making a huge deal out of this, but honestly? It’s clearly an issue for at least a few folks. I mean, why on earth would you single kids out like that? Why drag them into situations they don't even have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around yet? Is it really such a massive problem for religious parents to take their child to a local church for a blessing, especially when that’s exactly where they belong?

Of course some people are going to take issue with this—it’s a given that there will always be someone complaining about something, isn't there? That's just how it goes. But what I actually find problematic is the way certain things are being hinted at here on the forum instead of being addressed where they can actually be fixed, especially if we're talking about something that might end up hurting our kids...
And look, we really shouldn't be playing into this whole division regarding blessings either, right? We can't go around stirring the pot and then turn around and try to play both sides when it comes to health education... because honestly, that’s exactly how you leave them feeling completely lost and confused. If we already saw how much resentment and hate those kinds of tactics caused before, why on earth would we want to pull that same stunt on our own children?🤷

Seriously, once again, do you even understand anything about health or civic education? Don't you realize kids need to learn about democracy, how society functions, and how public sectors operate? Don't you think they should understand human anatomy, how to protect themselves from STIs or unplanned pregnancies, and how to handle social pressure? Shouldn't they be learning about youth violence prevention, critical thinking, tolerance, and embracing differences? What about building self-esteem, developing core values, fostering empathy, and standing firmly against all forms of violence? Or understanding the dangers of addiction lurking everywhere, learning how to stand up for themselves and others, knowing their own rights and the rights of those around them, and why protecting our environment and practicing ecology is so vital? They need to know what the government is and how its role should be to strive for freedom and equality!

Do you really have a problem with us teaching children how to be high-quality, active participants in society? Or do you just have no clue what civic and health education actually entails?

Lawrence Torres56 said:Sorry rustydrifter10, I just can't see eye to eye with you on this one...
Look, let’s be real for a second: "scientific facts" aren't some permanent, etched-in-stone truth, right? What the scientific community is shouting from the rooftops today could easily turn out to be a complete and utter joke by tomorrow. It happens all the time. And don't even get me started on this whole health education movement—it’s got nothing to do with actual science. It’s just pure ideology being shoved down our throats, which honestly isn't any better or worse than someone trying to sell you on religious dogma. It's all just different flavors of the same thing, really.
And why on earth shouldn't we be having this debate? Seriously, what's actually true about those tired old claims that blue is somehow "for boys" or that kids are supposed to act fundamentally different just because of their gender? I mean, sorry, but personally, I find that whole mindset totally unacceptable. We’re living in a world where guys and girls both go for smooth legs, where color preferences haven't mattered for decades, and where we expect both boys and girls to step up and handle household chores equally, right? It's all just so outdated.

Let’s be real for a second—every single thing we think we know about Jesus is basically just high-level guesswork at this point, isn't it?

If you ask me, most of the stuff we tell ourselves—all those little stories we spin to justify our lives and convince our kids that everything is under control—is honestly just pure guesswork, isn't it?😁 I honestly just don't get the desperate need to go full ad hominem all of a sudden... like, is it really that hard to actually address the point being made instead of just taking a cheap shot at the person?

It’s honestly such a ridiculous situation when a kid shows up to school and they’re basically forced into this impossible choice—do they join the school assembly and ceremony, or do they just wander around aimlessly? When my kids were back in elementary school, we had this exact same headache every single year; right at the start of the term, the whole school would head out to a service for a blessing sometime mid-morning. And let me tell you, all the complaining from parents didn't do squat to change anything. The kids were stuck between a rock and a hard place: they could either go to the service along with everyone else, or they could just loiter around the school grounds, which wasn't even fenced in! It was sketchy, really, because they weren't even allowed to stay inside the building since, apparently, "nobody is around because everyone is at the service." It’s just a total mess, especially for those little ones in the lower grades who shouldn't be left to fend for themselves like that.

Look, obviously this kind of stuff is a massive problem and someone needs to step up and put a stop to it once and for all. Even as a believer myself, I can't wrap my head around why any kid would be wandering the streets alone while mine is home receiving a blessing... I mean, kids should be our absolute top priority, right? They’re the ones we as adults have a moral obligation to protect at all costs. But hey, it looks like people actually spoke up because those complaints clearly worked—that issue isn't even around anymore. As far as I know, students don't really have anything to do outside of school hours unless they're supervised by a teacher... and even in the lower grades, they aren't allowed to be left on their own during religious studies classes; there always has to be an adult watching over them. In my experience, it’s usually just their specific classroom teacher handling it, and from what I hear, that seems to be the standard across most schools in the US too.

Look, I get why some people are making a huge deal out of this, but honestly? It’s clearly an issue for at least a few folks. I mean, why on earth would you single kids out like that? Why drag them into situations they don't even have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around yet? Is it really such a massive problem for religious parents to take their child to a local church for a blessing, especially when that’s exactly where they belong?

Of course some people are going to take issue with this—it’s a given that there will always be someone complaining about something, isn't there? That's just how it goes. But what I actually find problematic is the way certain things are being hinted at here on the forum instead of being addressed where they can actually be fixed, especially if we're talking about something that might end up hurting our kids...
And look, we really shouldn't be playing into this whole division regarding blessings either, right? We can't go around stirring the pot and then turn around and try to play both sides when it comes to health education... because honestly, that’s exactly how you leave them feeling completely lost and confused. If we already saw how much resentment and hate those kinds of tactics caused before, why on earth would we want to pull that same stunt on our own children?🤷

There is absolutely no truth to that, which is exactly what I was saying. All colors are for everyone, and all toys are for both boys and girls.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Sorry rustydrifter10, I just can't see eye to eye with you on this one...
Look, let’s be real for a second: "scientific facts" aren't some permanent, etched-in-stone truth, right? What the scientific community is shouting from the rooftops today could easily turn out to be a complete and utter joke by tomorrow. It happens all the time. And don't even get me started on this whole health education movement—it’s got nothing to do with actual science. It’s just pure ideology being shoved down our throats, which honestly isn't any better or worse than someone trying to sell you on religious dogma. It's all just different flavors of the same thing, really.
And why on earth shouldn't we be having this debate? Seriously, what's actually true about those tired old claims that blue is somehow "for boys" or that kids are supposed to act fundamentally different just because of their gender? I mean, sorry, but personally, I find that whole mindset totally unacceptable. We’re living in a world where guys and girls both go for smooth legs, where color preferences haven't mattered for decades, and where we expect both boys and girls to step up and handle household chores equally, right? It's all just so outdated.

Let’s be real for a second—every single thing we think we know about Jesus is basically just high-level guesswork at this point, isn't it?

If you ask me, most of the stuff we tell ourselves—all those little stories we spin to justify our lives and convince our kids that everything is under control—is honestly just pure guesswork, isn't it?😁 I honestly just don't get the desperate need to go full ad hominem all of a sudden... like, is it really that hard to actually address the point being made instead of just taking a cheap shot at the person?

It’s honestly such a ridiculous situation when a kid shows up to school and they’re basically forced into this impossible choice—do they join the school assembly and ceremony, or do they just wander around aimlessly? When my kids were back in elementary school, we had this exact same headache every single year; right at the start of the term, the whole school would head out to a service for a blessing sometime mid-morning. And let me tell you, all the complaining from parents didn't do squat to change anything. The kids were stuck between a rock and a hard place: they could either go to the service along with everyone else, or they could just loiter around the school grounds, which wasn't even fenced in! It was sketchy, really, because they weren't even allowed to stay inside the building since, apparently, "nobody is around because everyone is at the service." It’s just a total mess, especially for those little ones in the lower grades who shouldn't be left to fend for themselves like that.

Look, obviously this kind of stuff is a massive problem and someone needs to step up and put a stop to it once and for all. Even as a believer myself, I can't wrap my head around why any kid would be wandering the streets alone while mine is home receiving a blessing... I mean, kids should be our absolute top priority, right? They’re the ones we as adults have a moral obligation to protect at all costs. But hey, it looks like people actually spoke up because those complaints clearly worked—that issue isn't even around anymore. As far as I know, students don't really have anything to do outside of school hours unless they're supervised by a teacher... and even in the lower grades, they aren't allowed to be left on their own during religious studies classes; there always has to be an adult watching over them. In my experience, it’s usually just their specific classroom teacher handling it, and from what I hear, that seems to be the standard across most schools in the US too.

Look, I get why some people are making a huge deal out of this, but honestly? It’s clearly an issue for at least a few folks. I mean, why on earth would you single kids out like that? Why drag them into situations they don't even have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around yet? Is it really such a massive problem for religious parents to take their child to a local church for a blessing, especially when that’s exactly where they belong?

Of course some people are going to take issue with this—it’s a given that there will always be someone complaining about something, isn't there? That's just how it goes. But what I actually find problematic is the way certain things are being hinted at here on the forum instead of being addressed where they can actually be fixed, especially if we're talking about something that might end up hurting our kids...
And look, we really shouldn't be playing into this whole division regarding blessings either, right? We can't go around stirring the pot and then turn around and try to play both sides when it comes to health education... because honestly, that’s exactly how you leave them feeling completely lost and confused. If we already saw how much resentment and hate those kinds of tactics caused before, why on earth would we want to pull that same stunt on our own children?🤷

I am not attacking anyone personally. The religion I am criticizing isn't a specific person or a user on this forum.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Sorry rustydrifter10, I just can't see eye to eye with you on this one...
Look, let’s be real for a second: "scientific facts" aren't some permanent, etched-in-stone truth, right? What the scientific community is shouting from the rooftops today could easily turn out to be a complete and utter joke by tomorrow. It happens all the time. And don't even get me started on this whole health education movement—it’s got nothing to do with actual science. It’s just pure ideology being shoved down our throats, which honestly isn't any better or worse than someone trying to sell you on religious dogma. It's all just different flavors of the same thing, really.
And why on earth shouldn't we be having this debate? Seriously, what's actually true about those tired old claims that blue is somehow "for boys" or that kids are supposed to act fundamentally different just because of their gender? I mean, sorry, but personally, I find that whole mindset totally unacceptable. We’re living in a world where guys and girls both go for smooth legs, where color preferences haven't mattered for decades, and where we expect both boys and girls to step up and handle household chores equally, right? It's all just so outdated.

Let’s be real for a second—every single thing we think we know about Jesus is basically just high-level guesswork at this point, isn't it?

If you ask me, most of the stuff we tell ourselves—all those little stories we spin to justify our lives and convince our kids that everything is under control—is honestly just pure guesswork, isn't it?😁 I honestly just don't get the desperate need to go full ad hominem all of a sudden... like, is it really that hard to actually address the point being made instead of just taking a cheap shot at the person?

It’s honestly such a ridiculous situation when a kid shows up to school and they’re basically forced into this impossible choice—do they join the school assembly and ceremony, or do they just wander around aimlessly? When my kids were back in elementary school, we had this exact same headache every single year; right at the start of the term, the whole school would head out to a service for a blessing sometime mid-morning. And let me tell you, all the complaining from parents didn't do squat to change anything. The kids were stuck between a rock and a hard place: they could either go to the service along with everyone else, or they could just loiter around the school grounds, which wasn't even fenced in! It was sketchy, really, because they weren't even allowed to stay inside the building since, apparently, "nobody is around because everyone is at the service." It’s just a total mess, especially for those little ones in the lower grades who shouldn't be left to fend for themselves like that.

Look, obviously this kind of stuff is a massive problem and someone needs to step up and put a stop to it once and for all. Even as a believer myself, I can't wrap my head around why any kid would be wandering the streets alone while mine is home receiving a blessing... I mean, kids should be our absolute top priority, right? They’re the ones we as adults have a moral obligation to protect at all costs. But hey, it looks like people actually spoke up because those complaints clearly worked—that issue isn't even around anymore. As far as I know, students don't really have anything to do outside of school hours unless they're supervised by a teacher... and even in the lower grades, they aren't allowed to be left on their own during religious studies classes; there always has to be an adult watching over them. In my experience, it’s usually just their specific classroom teacher handling it, and from what I hear, that seems to be the standard across most schools in the US too.

Look, I get why some people are making a huge deal out of this, but honestly? It’s clearly an issue for at least a few folks. I mean, why on earth would you single kids out like that? Why drag them into situations they don't even have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around yet? Is it really such a massive problem for religious parents to take their child to a local church for a blessing, especially when that’s exactly where they belong?

Of course some people are going to take issue with this—it’s a given that there will always be someone complaining about something, isn't there? That's just how it goes. But what I actually find problematic is the way certain things are being hinted at here on the forum instead of being addressed where they can actually be fixed, especially if we're talking about something that might end up hurting our kids...
And look, we really shouldn't be playing into this whole division regarding blessings either, right? We can't go around stirring the pot and then turn around and try to play both sides when it comes to health education... because honestly, that’s exactly how you leave them feeling completely lost and confused. If we already saw how much resentment and hate those kinds of tactics caused before, why on earth would we want to pull that same stunt on our own children?🤷

It’s not health education that divides people; it’s religion that does that. Let me put it this way, maybe it'll make sense: give people their due, and give God His due. Keep religion and all its church matters separate from secular education in a secular state within our public schools.

Lawrence Torres56 said:I feel the same way😉...honestly, I'd love for my kid to have two hours less of that stuff per week in exchange for a much broader understanding of global faiths—like, instead of a poem about a dandelion, maybe they learn a prayer or a mantra... or instead of being encouraged toward hate in the 21st century, they listen to lessons about how similar we all are as humans...

But we don't really have that, do we? We just love pretending we do... because if we actually did, discussions like this would be ridiculous, especially since we all know nobody is getting hurt or dying just because someone splashed them with holy water or because a priest walked past them on the street.😁
So, what is religion class actually for? Well, maybe it exists, among other things, to teach kids what we call "interpersonal communication skills," which includes "respecting the teacher and peers. It involves practicing courtesy, attention, grace, and sincerity in human relationships." In other words, it's the stuff we've stripped out of every other subject because apparently, it's perfectly fine for an older person to call a student a "cow" just because they're in religion class and don't believe in God, or because it's considered "fine" to lie, be dishonest, or encourage hate, or to judge a classmate just because he's wearing his brother's old sneakers... you name it. Is that enough, or do I need to keep listing examples?🍿

Then why not just list that under ethics class?

Lawrence Torres56 said:I feel the same way😉...honestly, I'd love for my kid to have two hours less of that stuff per week in exchange for a much broader understanding of global faiths—like, instead of a poem about a dandelion, maybe they learn a prayer or a mantra... or instead of being encouraged toward hate in the 21st century, they listen to lessons about how similar we all are as humans...

But we don't really have that, do we? We just love pretending we do... because if we actually did, discussions like this would be ridiculous, especially since we all know nobody is getting hurt or dying just because someone splashed them with holy water or because a priest walked past them on the street.😁
So, what is religion class actually for? Well, maybe it exists, among other things, to teach kids what we call "interpersonal communication skills," which includes "respecting the teacher and peers. It involves practicing courtesy, attention, grace, and sincerity in human relationships." In other words, it's the stuff we've stripped out of every other subject because apparently, it's perfectly fine for an older person to call a student a "cow" just because they're in religion class and don't believe in God, or because it's considered "fine" to lie, be dishonest, or encourage hate, or to judge a classmate just because he's wearing his brother's old sneakers... you name it. Is that enough, or do I need to keep listing examples?🍿

Believe it or not, being able to communicate well isn't some monopoly held by religious education—quite the opposite! Good communication comes down to the individual and how they were raised at home, which has absolutely nothing to do with faith.

rowdypanther12 said:Prayer can be pretty useful sometimes—like if you go to early morning services, you might get a free pass to go ice skating in a place like Chicago, for instance.
And honestly, kids raised without religion shouldn't feel left out at all. No one is stopping them from joining in on those early services if they want to, or just paying for a ticket to hit the rink and skate.
It’s not like anyone is banning them from having fun on the ice.
I truly mean that.

👍

rustydrifter10 said:Wait, are you actually being serious right now? Do you even know what science is, or have you ever even looked into how its methods actually work? Science changes its mind based on new evidence, and honestly, that ability to pivot is one of the clearest signs of intelligent thinking. It’s the exact opposite of people who stubbornly cling to an idea regardless of reality—you know, like religious groups or just plain old fools.

Seriously, once again, do you even understand anything about health or civic education? Don't you realize kids need to learn about democracy, how society functions, and how public sectors operate? Don't you think they should understand human anatomy, how to protect themselves from STIs or unplanned pregnancies, and how to handle social pressure? Shouldn't they be learning about youth violence prevention, critical thinking, tolerance, and embracing differences? What about building self-esteem, developing core values, fostering empathy, and standing firmly against all forms of violence? Or understanding the dangers of addiction lurking everywhere, learning how to stand up for themselves and others, knowing their own rights and the rights of those around them, and why protecting our environment and practicing ecology is so vital? They need to know what the government is and how its role should be to strive for freedom and equality!

Do you really have a problem with us teaching children how to be high-quality, active participants in society? Or do you just have no clue what civic and health education actually entails?

There is absolutely no truth to that, which is exactly what I was saying. All colors are for everyone, and all toys are for both boys and girls.

I am not attacking anyone personally. The religion I am criticizing isn't a specific person or a user on this forum.

It’s not health education that divides people; it’s religion that does that. Let me put it this way, maybe it'll make sense: give people their due, and give God His due. Keep religion and all its church matters separate from secular education in a secular state within our public schools.

Then why not just list that under ethics class?

Believe it or not, being able to communicate well isn't some monopoly held by religious education—quite the opposite! Good communication comes down to the individual and how they were raised at home, which has absolutely nothing to do with faith.

👍

Yeah, I was being dead serious. But honestly, after seeing that, I’m starting to wonder if having any kind of actual, meaningful debate even makes sense on this forum anymore?
So, when I say things like "there are no scientific certainties, and what science claims today might be proven totally wrong tomorrow..." you hit me back with "Science changes its mind based on evidence" and then have the nerve to ask if I even know what science is?😕
Sorry, but this is giving off major "it's not X, it's definitely Y" vibes...

Seriously, let me ask you again: do you know anything about health and civic education? Do you realize how vital it is to teach kids about democracy, how society functions, and how public sectors work? Don't you think children need to learn about anatomy, how to protect themselves from STIs and unplanned pregnancies, and how to stand their ground against social pressure? Shouldn't they be learning about youth violence prevention, critical thinking, tolerance, and embracing diversity? What about self-esteem and confidence? Developing core values, fostering empathy, rejecting all forms of violence, understanding the dangers of addiction, and learning how to fight for themselves and others? Shouldn't they know their rights and the rights of those around them, how to exercise those rights, why we need to protect nature through ecology, and what the government is and its role in striving for freedom and equality?

If I told you that maybe I actually know more than you, would that even matter? If I argued that people in old, defunct regimes used to talk about these exact same issues regarding their own systems—like saying anatomy and sexual health are covered in biology books, or that our society doesn't support critical thinking—would anyone care? It feels pointless... because clearly, the issue here isn't religious education, it's the people involved...

None of that is true, which is exactly what I wrote. All colors are for both genders, and all toys are for both genders.

Great, glad we can finally agree on at least one thing... so why on earth are you supporting a subject that teaches the exact opposite?🤷

I'm not going ad hominem. The religion I'm criticizing isn't a person or a forum user.

Don't worry, I wasn't targeting you or anyone in particular; I was just asking a general question... hoping someone might actually give me an honest answer.

Health education shouldn't be divisive; religion is what creates those divides. Look, maybe this will click for you: let’s just keep things where they belong—religion stays in the churches, and secular education stays in our secular schools within a secular state.

You’re talking like you own the place, for God's sake!😉 Is America really a secular state?😁
Honestly, have you ever stopped to wonder why sexual, health, and civics education ended up scattered across all these different subjects instead of being introduced as its own standalone course like they originally promised? I could go on forever...

Then just fold it into ethics class.

And why should we? My kid loves religious studies, it doesn't bother me, and none of the people I know have an issue with it either... as for the folks who *do* complain, their way of communicating hasn't exactly won me over enough to offer them any real sympathy, purely on a human level...

Believe it or not, how people communicate isn't the exclusive domain of religious studies; if anything, it's the opposite. Communication skills come down to the individual and how they were raised at home, which has absolutely nothing to do with faith.

Wait, where exactly did you read that I said that?
Of course it isn't, it's just (and I am repeating myself here) that it isn't represented nearly as much as it used to be in other subjects...
And clearly, kids at home aren't getting much of a chance to learn about it there...
whereas in religious studies, for example, it's actually one of the core elements being evaluated...
So, I honestly don't get it, what's even the controversy here?

How exactly is communication style graded in religious studies classes?

I’m looking for a clear, methodological answer that covers all the pedagogical aspects of how the curriculum is actually organized.
How does a religious studies course even begin to grade you on your actual character as a human being?

Also, give me a non-methodical—well, maybe just a less formal—answer that still touches on those pedagogical elements.

Look, you just have to accept the reality that we live in a materialistic world built on physical evidence if you want to function in modern society. Your spiritual side can take you wherever you want to go; you can even deny the existence of the universe if you feel like it. But that's just for YOU. You can't expect everyone else to follow suit, no matter how much you distrust them just because their version of the universe looks different than yours.

If you refuse to agree with the consensus that everyone else living in this world has accepted, then be my guest—go climb a mountain and try to levitate toward God. You're free to do that. But don't turn your back on medical treatment for your child just because you claim science doesn't have the answers once a kid gets seriously ill.

Go ahead and pray to God to pull a tumor out of a body with arrows from the sky, instead of being grateful that He sent those "terrible" scientists who actually work to remove tumors, fight diseases, and dedicate themselves to science.

We aren't talking about religious education here; what we have is just catechetical instruction from a single congregation. That kind of thing isn't useful in a school setting, and it certainly doesn't benefit the believers.

silentraven6 said:How exactly is communication style graded in religious studies classes?

I’m looking for a clear, methodological answer that covers all the pedagogical aspects of how the curriculum is actually organized.
How does a religious studies course even begin to grade you on your actual character as a human being?

Also, give me a non-methodical—well, maybe just a less formal—answer that still touches on those pedagogical elements.

Look, you just have to accept the reality that we live in a materialistic world built on physical evidence if you want to function in modern society. Your spiritual side can take you wherever you want to go; you can even deny the existence of the universe if you feel like it. But that's just for YOU. You can't expect everyone else to follow suit, no matter how much you distrust them just because their version of the universe looks different than yours.

If you refuse to agree with the consensus that everyone else living in this world has accepted, then be my guest—go climb a mountain and try to levitate toward God. You're free to do that. But don't turn your back on medical treatment for your child just because you claim science doesn't have the answers once a kid gets seriously ill.

Go ahead and pray to God to pull a tumor out of a body with arrows from the sky, instead of being grateful that He sent those "terrible" scientists who actually work to remove tumors, fight diseases, and dedicate themselves to science.

We aren't talking about religious education here; what we have is just catechetical instruction from a single congregation. That kind of thing isn't useful in a school setting, and it certainly doesn't benefit the believers.

Here, for example, is how communication culture is graded during a religious ed period.😉🍿
http://school-district-example.edu/upload/...grading_rubric.pdf
There’s plenty more like it, easily found online if you actually bother to look.😉

And honestly, if you truly believe this style of communication makes sense or contributes to any kind of consensus, then fine, whatever. You and the rest of you can just keep spitting on everything else... who cares?🤷 Personally, I don't have a single complaint; my kid is perfectly happy with the religious ed offered at their school, and frankly, why should I care what you lot think?
Also, if you’ve all supposedly agreed to this consensus, like you claim, then why the heck are you complaining now?😕 Why are you spitting on and attacking anyone who thinks differently?

By the way, no biggie😉, I am more than ready to write a doctoral dissertation on this topic, provided you’re willing to pay for it or someone else here is... because, let's be real, in a material world, nothing comes for free.😉, time is money, and it's probably better to spend your time levitating than wasting it on this...

And just for your information, there is someone in my house dealing with an illness that science knows absolutely nothing about, other than offering a shrug of the shoulders... sorry, but why on earth would I put that person on a pedestal? But, strictly as a human being, I truly hope you never have to go through what I am going through—something that would completely shatter your current views and prejudices (and I’m not even talking about faith).☕

Lawrence Torres56 said:Here, for example, is how communication culture is graded during a religious ed period.😉🍿
http://school-district-example.edu/upload/...grading_rubric.pdf
There’s plenty more like it, easily found online if you actually bother to look.😉

And honestly, if you truly believe this style of communication makes sense or contributes to any kind of consensus, then fine, whatever. You and the rest of you can just keep spitting on everything else... who cares?🤷 Personally, I don't have a single complaint; my kid is perfectly happy with the religious ed offered at their school, and frankly, why should I care what you lot think?
Also, if you’ve all supposedly agreed to this consensus, like you claim, then why the heck are you complaining now?😕 Why are you spitting on and attacking anyone who thinks differently?

By the way, no biggie😉, I am more than ready to write a doctoral dissertation on this topic, provided you’re willing to pay for it or someone else here is... because, let's be real, in a material world, nothing comes for free.😉, time is money, and it's probably better to spend your time levitating than wasting it on this...

And just for your information, there is someone in my house dealing with an illness that science knows absolutely nothing about, other than offering a shrug of the shoulders... sorry, but why on earth would I put that person on a pedestal? But, strictly as a human being, I truly hope you never have to go through what I am going through—something that would completely shatter your current views and prejudices (and I’m not even talking about faith).☕

So, when it comes to actually applying content through practical exercises... well, this is where we stand. It feels like we’re just going through the motions of some religious catechism. The truth is, there isn't much room for people who don't actually want to live out the tenets of a specific faith. They aren't looking to practice it; they just want to understand it—to gain enough knowledge so they can be tolerant and fully grasp what someone else believes without feeling any personal need to adopt those beliefs themselves.

The idea that communication culture is somehow missing from other subjects—while being a core strength of religious studies—really misses the point. It’s actually baked right into the teaching methodology of almost every other discipline. In my own classes, like English, philosophy, logic, and ethics, that sense of mutual respect is built directly into how a teacher interacts with their students. It’s about fostering a genuine culture of dialogue and earning the respect of those little minds. This is especially true in philosophy, where the whole point is debate; you need a fair moderator who treats every single reasoned perspective with actual dignity.

There’s a fundamental difference between science and religion—or even just personal faith—when you’re facing illness, whether it’s happening to you or someone you live with. Faith and prayer can be incredibly powerful tools, but they mostly work on an internal level; they help you find peace and help the patient psychologically process a heavy diagnosis or an inevitable end. And honestly, that isn't exclusive to any one group. Anyone with a healthy mind, regardless of their specific faith or lack thereof, can find solace there. We all share this same spiritual essence, even if some people call it by a specific name while others try to find it within themselves or in the world around them. Science, on the other hand, takes a different approach. It doesn't just stop once the news gets bad. Researchers keep digging, searching for answers so they can help the next person walking this path. Science won't just shrug its shoulders and say, "God help you," and walk away. Instead, it acknowledges the whole picture. A doctor will tell you that having the support of your loved ones and your faith—if that's part of your life—is vital for your recovery, but they aren't going to stop fighting to uncover the physical causes behind the sickness.

A priest can give you all the spiritual strength in the world, but he isn’t going to be looking at your tumor cells under a microscope.

darkranger42 said:And if I were to continue that list... as one member here who is quite pro-religious studies put it (to use her own words): ''scientific facts don't actually exist, and what science claims to be true today might be proven completely wrong tomorrow.''

Maybe we should just settle on the idea that the Earth is a flat disc, that when it thunders, Saint Elijah is driving his car through the clouds in a fit of rage, that airplanes fly because angels carry them, that snow falls simply because it has no stairs to walk down, and that pneumonia is merely a direct consequence of God's will... That's how we should be explaining things to children in school. Just toss science, scientific progress, and the entire methodology of research out the window. We might as well shut down every university and research institute in the country, since they're essentially useless if scientific facts aren't real and if those crazy scientists are constantly "changing things and overthinking everything."

🤣

this whole thread is exhausting... 🕺

Quincy:

I honestly don't know how people expect us to just "get over" things when everything feels like it's constantly being thrown in our faces, you know? Like, does anyone actually think we can just move on without addressing the mess first? It’s just exhausting. I was reading what Lawrence Torres56 had to say earlier, and honestly, isn't there always some kind of underlying issue that everyone just ignores because it's too uncomfortable to talk about? We're all just sitting here pretending things are fine while the whole foundation is shaking, and frankly, I'm tired of the pretense. Does anybody else feel like we're just spinning our wheels here? Lawrence Torres56 says: So, we’re back to that whole mess of trying to actually apply theory to real-world scenarios, aren't we? Honestly, it feels like we're stuck in this endless loop of religious instruction—like we're just running through some Sunday school curriculum for a specific congregation over and over again. It’s kind of funny, really, because you realize there isn't much room for anyone who doesn't actually want to live out those doctrines. I mean, if you aren't looking to fully embrace the faith, what are you even doing there? It seems like the whole point for people like us is just to get a handle on someone else's belief system so we can be "tolerant" and properly informed about what they hold dear, all without having any actual desire to adopt those beliefs ourselves. Isn't that just the way it goes?

😕
I mean, seriously, who exactly is forcing your hand to be all up in your business about religious stuff if you aren't even interested? Like, since when did it become mandatory to deal with faith-based nonsense just because someone else feels like pushing it on you? It’s wild, isn't it?
So, seriously, why are you pushing this whole tolerance thing so hard, like, what's even the endgame with all that?
Where’s all this talk about tolerance actually coming from, anyway? I mean, looking at you, where is it on your end? Is attacking me just because I happen to have my own perspective really what you call being tolerant? Or am I out here trying to force your kid to go to Sunday school or something?
Look, we could totally go about this a different way, right? Like, what can I actually do—as a believer—to make sure you feel heard and respected, and honestly, what's the move on your end to make sure I feel just as comfortable in this conversation as an atheist? Is there some kind of middle ground where we both walk away feeling like our perspectives actually landed?
Quincy:

You know, this whole idea that "communication culture" is somehow missing from other subjects while being this special perk of religious studies? Honestly, that’s just a total misunderstanding of how teaching actually works across the board. If you look at my classes—things like English lit, philosophy, logic, ethics—that sense of mutual respect and open dialogue isn't some separate module you add on; it's baked right into the way we handle the educational process. It’s all about the relationship between the teacher and the students, isn't it? It’s about cultivating a real culture of communication where you actually work to earn the respect of those little brains sitting in front of you. Especially in a subject like philosophy, where everything revolves around debate, don't you need a fair moderator who genuinely respects every single argued viewpoint? It's built into the DNA of how we teach.

So, I’ve been sitting here wondering—which specific subject actually gives this thing its own dedicated grade? Like, I mean, which class has a whole separate section just for evaluating it? Or better yet, which subject treats it as an actual thematic unit where you can just sit around and spend two or three periods straight debating its importance or diving into a specific issue without feeling like you're totally blowing the lesson plan or falling behind on the curriculum? I’m talking about elementary school here, people. Surely philosophy, ethics, and logic aren't exactly things little kids in first grade are tackling in their daily lessons, right?
Wait, weren't you just tearing me to shreds a few pages back, claiming that stuff like this doesn't even exist in any American religious studies curriculum?
Quincy:

Look, there’s this massive divide between science and religion—or just plain old faith—when you’re dealing with people who are sick, or even when you're living with someone who is. You have to realize that faith and prayer? They’re really just tools to help *you* feel better, or maybe to give a patient some sort of psychological cushion to help them process an inevitable diagnosis or a brutal prognosis. And honestly, that doesn't even matter if you're religious or an atheist; anyone with a healthy head on their shoulders can find peace through that connection to the spirit, whether you call it God or just look for it within yourself, right? We’re all made of the same stuff in the end. But science? Science isn't going to just shrug its shoulders and say, "Well, may Quincy be with you," and walk away. It keeps grinding, keeps researching, and keeps pushing forward specifically so the next person doesn't have to suffer quite as much. A doctor isn't going to dismiss a patient by saying they just need more prayers; instead, they’ll tell you that while having a strong support system or your faith might be vital for your mental resilience, the real work lies in hunting down those physical causes. A priest can give you the spiritual strength to keep fighting, sure, but they aren't exactly going to sit there staring at your tumor cells under a microscope.

If you only knew how many times I’ve sat there listening to these so-called scientists and doctors drone on, only to have them hit me with that classic, "Well, it's all in God's hands," line... honestly, you wouldn't even believe me.😁,
And honestly, don't even worry about it—I don't need some preacher coming by to offer me sympathy, and I sure as hell don't expect science to have all the answers figured out either... I’m still standing firmly on my own two feet here, maybe even a little more solid than I was before.😉

rowdypanther12 said:Prayer can be pretty useful sometimes—like if you go to early morning services, you might get a free pass to go ice skating in a place like Chicago, for instance.
And honestly, kids raised without religion shouldn't feel left out at all. No one is stopping them from joining in on those early services if they want to, or just paying for a ticket to hit the rink and skate.
It’s not like anyone is banning them from having fun on the ice.
I truly mean that.

Catholic kids get sidelined too if they don't make it to those early services! Why focus only on the atheist kids? They aren't the only ones missing out on the free skating just because they don't attend the morning mass. I don't know how you can even try to justify that logic.

neontinker5 said:If we look at what you wrote in your previous post, you seem to agree that people don't actually study truth; they simply study what they believe to be true. That isn't the same thing. Truth is what aligns with reality—it simply *is*. It exists independently of whatever anyone happens to believe.

Regarding the maintenance costs for these programs, Nice provided those figures at the top of the page. There is really no need for us to keep repeating how much of that funding could be redirected elsewhere.

From a moral standpoint, the idea of Original Sin—the notion that one inherits moral responsibility for an act they didn't personally commit—is completely foreign to any standard ethical system. And frankly, that isn't even the most bizarre claim being made here.

Look at our modern era and how we handle sexual minorities in the US... actually, let's just leave it at that.

But I won't limit myself to just the negatives. School-based religious education is essentially just a more liberal version of what kids learn in church. This gives them an early opportunity to realize that a text is truly in the eye of the beholder. 😁
Furthermore, students still hone essential skills like reading, writing, and drawing...

But babies don't attend religious ed classes, so you can't exactly claim someone is forcing Original Sin guilt on them!
You seem to think you don't have to explain your reasons for wanting to scrap religious ed, but since stuff has already been said on these boards... I'm not feeling your answer. Let's take it slow—what exactly makes the Church or these classes disrespectful toward gay people?

Lawrence Torres56 said:Quincy:

I honestly don't know how people expect us to just "get over" things when everything feels like it's constantly being thrown in our faces, you know? Like, does anyone actually think we can just move on without addressing the mess first? It’s just exhausting. I was reading what Lawrence Torres56 had to say earlier, and honestly, isn't there always some kind of underlying issue that everyone just ignores because it's too uncomfortable to talk about? We're all just sitting here pretending things are fine while the whole foundation is shaking, and frankly, I'm tired of the pretense. Does anybody else feel like we're just spinning our wheels here? Lawrence Torres56 says: So, we’re back to that whole mess of trying to actually apply theory to real-world scenarios, aren't we? Honestly, it feels like we're stuck in this endless loop of religious instruction—like we're just running through some Sunday school curriculum for a specific congregation over and over again. It’s kind of funny, really, because you realize there isn't much room for anyone who doesn't actually want to live out those doctrines. I mean, if you aren't looking to fully embrace the faith, what are you even doing there? It seems like the whole point for people like us is just to get a handle on someone else's belief system so we can be "tolerant" and properly informed about what they hold dear, all without having any actual desire to adopt those beliefs ourselves. Isn't that just the way it goes?

😕
I mean, seriously, who exactly is forcing your hand to be all up in your business about religious stuff if you aren't even interested? Like, since when did it become mandatory to deal with faith-based nonsense just because someone else feels like pushing it on you? It’s wild, isn't it?
So, seriously, why are you pushing this whole tolerance thing so hard, like, what's even the endgame with all that?
Where’s all this talk about tolerance actually coming from, anyway? I mean, looking at you, where is it on your end? Is attacking me just because I happen to have my own perspective really what you call being tolerant? Or am I out here trying to force your kid to go to Sunday school or something?
Look, we could totally go about this a different way, right? Like, what can I actually do—as a believer—to make sure you feel heard and respected, and honestly, what's the move on your end to make sure I feel just as comfortable in this conversation as an atheist? Is there some kind of middle ground where we both walk away feeling like our perspectives actually landed?
Quincy:

You know, this whole idea that "communication culture" is somehow missing from other subjects while being this special perk of religious studies? Honestly, that’s just a total misunderstanding of how teaching actually works across the board. If you look at my classes—things like English lit, philosophy, logic, ethics—that sense of mutual respect and open dialogue isn't some separate module you add on; it's baked right into the way we handle the educational process. It’s all about the relationship between the teacher and the students, isn't it? It’s about cultivating a real culture of communication where you actually work to earn the respect of those little brains sitting in front of you. Especially in a subject like philosophy, where everything revolves around debate, don't you need a fair moderator who genuinely respects every single argued viewpoint? It's built into the DNA of how we teach.

So, I’ve been sitting here wondering—which specific subject actually gives this thing its own dedicated grade? Like, I mean, which class has a whole separate section just for evaluating it? Or better yet, which subject treats it as an actual thematic unit where you can just sit around and spend two or three periods straight debating its importance or diving into a specific issue without feeling like you're totally blowing the lesson plan or falling behind on the curriculum? I’m talking about elementary school here, people. Surely philosophy, ethics, and logic aren't exactly things little kids in first grade are tackling in their daily lessons, right?
Wait, weren't you just tearing me to shreds a few pages back, claiming that stuff like this doesn't even exist in any American religious studies curriculum?
Quincy:

Look, there’s this massive divide between science and religion—or just plain old faith—when you’re dealing with people who are sick, or even when you're living with someone who is. You have to realize that faith and prayer? They’re really just tools to help *you* feel better, or maybe to give a patient some sort of psychological cushion to help them process an inevitable diagnosis or a brutal prognosis. And honestly, that doesn't even matter if you're religious or an atheist; anyone with a healthy head on their shoulders can find peace through that connection to the spirit, whether you call it God or just look for it within yourself, right? We’re all made of the same stuff in the end. But science? Science isn't going to just shrug its shoulders and say, "Well, may Quincy be with you," and walk away. It keeps grinding, keeps researching, and keeps pushing forward specifically so the next person doesn't have to suffer quite as much. A doctor isn't going to dismiss a patient by saying they just need more prayers; instead, they’ll tell you that while having a strong support system or your faith might be vital for your mental resilience, the real work lies in hunting down those physical causes. A priest can give you the spiritual strength to keep fighting, sure, but they aren't exactly going to sit there staring at your tumor cells under a microscope.

If you only knew how many times I’ve sat there listening to these so-called scientists and doctors drone on, only to have them hit me with that classic, "Well, it's all in God's hands," line... honestly, you wouldn't even believe me.😁,
And honestly, don't even worry about it—I don't need some preacher coming by to offer me sympathy, and I sure as hell don't expect science to have all the answers figured out either... I’m still standing firmly on my own two feet here, maybe even a little more solid than I was before.😉

1. Pay closer attention; I am a believer myself. What I'm proposing is more like that comparative religion course you might see in some European schools, where my child would be taught about all religions and ethics in a balanced way alongside all the other kids, whether they're believers or not. To me, that's true tolerance, if these classes have to be in the school system at all.

2. During American English, Science, or Social Studies classes, almost every single period involves this kind of thing. It’s just not labeled as such; it gets wrapped up in the standard curriculum through reading, studying, storytelling, analyzing literature, and ultimately, being graded on participation and effort.

3. That doctor might be a believer too, but he understands that medicine is advancing and that while he can't do anything right now, he might be able to in five years. A priest won't be able to answer those same challenges even in five years by finding a cure.

I can't believe I'm even saying this, but I really need to vent about how much work it takes just to stay sane lately. It feels like every single thing is getting more complicated, and honestly? I'm exhausted. Sometimes you just gotta step back, grab a coffee, and realize that most of this chaos isn't actually worth your energy. Just my two cents. kaže:

We aren't going to have kids sitting around with empty gaps in their schedules. If there's a demand for it, we’ll open up some new space to get them into something actually useful instead.

Atheism isn't some active thing you "do." It’s just what happens when there's no faith involved. To me, being an atheist simply means I'm not going to buy into something unless there's actual proof to back it up.

We’ve got actual evidence for how the universe started, how life kicked off, and pretty much everything else. Honestly, this is just one more massive reason why we need to double down on science in our schools. Look, you don't need to prove that God doesn't exist just to call yourself an atheist. It's like saying you don't believe in some massive, seven-armed green monster lurking in your backyard—you don't need a mountain of proof to show it *isn't* there to justify not believing in it. The burden of proof is always on the people claiming something exists. In this case, that's the believers, not the atheists.

So you're telling me the Church actually grants them the exact same rights as straight people? Look, they’re just one example. This goes for pretty much any belief system or doctrine that fails to meet basic standards of modern civilization and fundamental human rights.

Look, religious studies—just like any other elective—isn't some mandatory requirement. It’s not like Catholic school classes where they force it on you; it's an option.

-Is it really worth cutting religion classes just because there’s a scheduling conflict? Seems like a massive stretch to me.Look, I totally respect your right to have an opinion like that... but you gotta respect mine when I say your reasoning is absolute garbage.
Look, you’re totally missing the forest for the trees here. You're hyper-focusing on the wrong part of this whole debate. It doesn't really matter if religious studies becomes "mandatory" at some point down the line; what actually matters is that right now, it's an elective in elementary school, and even in high school, it’s just one of those optional choices alongside ethics. The bottom line is that it stays optional. Period. No one is forcing religion on kids, and parents or students can opt out whenever they want. I feel like you aren't giving the full picture—you're kind of twisting things to make them sound more dramatic than they are. The truth isn't that extreme. There is zero coercion happening here.
Look, the burden of proof isn't on the people saying something exists; it’s on the ones making the claims. If atheists want to stand there and insist that God isn't real, or claim they have the origin of the universe and life all figured out, then fine—show me the receipts. If they won't provide actual evidence, then they're really just choosing to believe that life just happened exactly how Dawkins described it. Sure, abiogenesis, the Big Bang, evolution... it's all incredibly cool stuff. But let's be real: nothing is actually settled. It's still packed with massive, unanswered questions. You can't rule out a higher power anywhere in those theories. Honestly, Christian doctrine isn't even weighed down by those scientific debates; it's aiming for something else entirely, something that actually fits right alongside those phenomena.
Atheism is basically just another way of believing in something. Honestly, it doesn't even matter how atheists try to frame their position versus religious folks—what actually counts is the evidence they’re (not) bringing to the table.

I don't have any text from "shtefy" to work with yet! Send over the posts you want me to rewrite, and I'll get to work making them sound like a natural, punchy American voice. kaže:
Look, whether you like it or not, what you wrote hits the nail on the head for a huge chunk of religious folks out there. It’s the truth: there’s this massive push to force everyone else into their specific faith, their beliefs, their way of life, and all their little rituals. Honestly? A lot of them don't give a damn about anyone else. They don't care if they offend people, and they'll gladly spit on someone else's convictions or try to strip parents of the right to raise their kids with their own values. They act like they live by those "Christian" principles, but most of the time, it’s just a performance. They beat their chests and claim those values belong solely to them. You can call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day, it’s just straight-up bullying.

...exactly. It’s all fun and games until those creepy Catholics start prowling the streets looking for kids to prey on.

silentraven6 said:1. Pay closer attention; I am a believer myself. What I'm proposing is more like that comparative religion course you might see in some European schools, where my child would be taught about all religions and ethics in a balanced way alongside all the other kids, whether they're believers or not. To me, that's true tolerance, if these classes have to be in the school system at all.

2. During American English, Science, or Social Studies classes, almost every single period involves this kind of thing. It’s just not labeled as such; it gets wrapped up in the standard curriculum through reading, studying, storytelling, analyzing literature, and ultimately, being graded on participation and effort.

3. That doctor might be a believer too, but he understands that medicine is advancing and that while he can't do anything right now, he might be able to in five years. A priest won't be able to answer those same challenges even in five years by finding a cure.

Look, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I honestly don't have a problem with my kid learning about different religions or studying various prayers and rituals... that's just part of being educated, right? But what I really can't stand is this mindless copying of foreign models without any actual critical thinking involved. It's especially frustrating when we're just blindly importing these frameworks from places where religion isn't even about faith anymore—it’s basically just a massive money-making scheme. Why would we just take that on faith?😉Look, it’s not even about whether people are actually paying up or not—it's much deeper than that. It’s all about that massive, glaring contradiction between what they’re preaching and what they’re actually doing in practice. You know what I mean? They talk one way, then turn around and pull a complete 180 the second anyone starts looking, and honestly, how can you take any of it seriously when the math just doesn't add up like that?

Look, you totally missed the mark there—it’s not even about making some big proclamation or shouting it from the rooftops, you completely misunderstood what I was getting at...
Look, when you’re sitting through an hour of History, Science, or even Math, the curriculum basically calls the shots, right? You just don't have the luxury to spend half the period diving deep into things like "human values." Don't get me wrong—I’m not saying we shouldn't talk about them at all. If some drama goes down in the classroom, sure, you deal with it, but on a regular basis, the syllabus is a relentless beast and there simply isn't enough time to wander off. A teacher could try to spend today's Science period lecturing on the profound importance of empathy, but what happens tomorrow? They’ll be staring at the clock, frantically trying to make up for lost time just to stay on track with the lesson plan. It’s a losing battle. Now, compare that to a Religion class—you can sit there for hours debating ethics and morality without anyone breathing down your neck, because they won't be stuck trying to cram two weeks' worth of material into a single period next Friday just to keep up.

Wait, are we really diving into the whole "plural" thing right now? Seriously? I feel like we’re basically opening up a massive can of worms here, aren't we? It’s one of those topics that seems so simple on the surface—just add an 's' and call it a day, right?—but once you actually start peeling back the layers, it becomes this absolute rabbit hole of weird rules and exceptions that make you want to pull your hair out. Why does English have to be such a chaotic mess sometimes? Is it just a collective desire to make things difficult for everyone involved? I mean, come on. 😁Or maybe—and hear me out on this one—maybe it’s just that some folks don't feel the need to hide behind a curtain when they start bringing up God, especially once they realize science hasn't exactly provided all the answers they were looking for?🤷

Lawrence Torres56 said:Look, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I honestly don't have a problem with my kid learning about different religions or studying various prayers and rituals... that's just part of being educated, right? But what I really can't stand is this mindless copying of foreign models without any actual critical thinking involved. It's especially frustrating when we're just blindly importing these frameworks from places where religion isn't even about faith anymore—it’s basically just a massive money-making scheme. Why would we just take that on faith?😉Look, it’s not even about whether people are actually paying up or not—it's much deeper than that. It’s all about that massive, glaring contradiction between what they’re preaching and what they’re actually doing in practice. You know what I mean? They talk one way, then turn around and pull a complete 180 the second anyone starts looking, and honestly, how can you take any of it seriously when the math just doesn't add up like that?

Look, you totally missed the mark there—it’s not even about making some big proclamation or shouting it from the rooftops, you completely misunderstood what I was getting at...
Look, when you’re sitting through an hour of History, Science, or even Math, the curriculum basically calls the shots, right? You just don't have the luxury to spend half the period diving deep into things like "human values." Don't get me wrong—I’m not saying we shouldn't talk about them at all. If some drama goes down in the classroom, sure, you deal with it, but on a regular basis, the syllabus is a relentless beast and there simply isn't enough time to wander off. A teacher could try to spend today's Science period lecturing on the profound importance of empathy, but what happens tomorrow? They’ll be staring at the clock, frantically trying to make up for lost time just to stay on track with the lesson plan. It’s a losing battle. Now, compare that to a Religion class—you can sit there for hours debating ethics and morality without anyone breathing down your neck, because they won't be stuck trying to cram two weeks' worth of material into a single period next Friday just to keep up.

Wait, are we really diving into the whole "plural" thing right now? Seriously? I feel like we’re basically opening up a massive can of worms here, aren't we? It’s one of those topics that seems so simple on the surface—just add an 's' and call it a day, right?—but once you actually start peeling back the layers, it becomes this absolute rabbit hole of weird rules and exceptions that make you want to pull your hair out. Why does English have to be such a chaotic mess sometimes? Is it just a collective desire to make things difficult for everyone involved? I mean, come on. 😁Or maybe—and hear me out on this one—maybe it’s just that some folks don't feel the need to hide behind a curtain when they start bringing up God, especially once they realize science hasn't exactly provided all the answers they were looking for?🤷

Let's just start over from the beginning.

1. Which countries are we talking about? Which religions? And how can one Catholic be so hypocritical as to accuse other faiths of the very things his own has been doing for millennia? But alright, let's set our own faith aside—which specific religions, countries, and models are supposedly so undesirable?

2. Have you ever actually taught in a school? Have you even attended college? Have you ever had to write a lesson plan or study educational methods, pedagogical models, or learning objectives in university? Where did you get this idea that we lose precious instructional time in the subjects I mentioned just because of "communication culture"? In what way does communication culture eat up time in an English or literature class, for example? Is it by teaching kids how to communicate effectively, or by analyzing the great works of world and American literature through which all the fundamental educational, communicative, spiritual, and practical values of modern humans are woven?

Have you ever looked at a social studies textbook? What do you think the entire purpose of a Social Studies curriculum is if not to teach these foundational educational and communicative values?

Are you aware that students learn communication culture during math class? The foundation of good math instruction is teaching kids how to follow a logical progression presented by the teacher. They learn the core values of reasoned and logical thinking simply because math is a subject of high-level systems—it's a language unto itself, far more structured than any rambling debate in a religion class. It's a subject that serves as a cornerstone of equality in the world because, when looking at the raw material and logic, it is undeniably equal for everyone.

And how are kids supposed to use their time if they are stuck listening to theoretical lectures on communication culture, only to walk out of the room and see their friends who were just hanging out in the hallway? What kind of godforsaken "communication culture" is this—one so one-sided that you can't even explain why we need a deep shift in how content is studied and delivered, making the practical application of the system unsuited for the very taxpayers who fund it?

Lawrence Torres56 said:Sorry rustydrifter10, I just can't see eye to eye with you on this one...
Look, let’s be real for a second: "scientific facts" aren't some permanent, etched-in-stone truth, right? What the scientific community is shouting from the rooftops today could easily turn out to be a complete and utter joke by tomorrow. It happens all the time. And don't even get me started on this whole health education movement—it’s got nothing to do with actual science. It’s just pure ideology being shoved down our throats, which honestly isn't any better or worse than someone trying to sell you on religious dogma. It's all just different flavors of the same thing, really.
And why on earth shouldn't we be having this debate? Seriously, what's actually true about those tired old claims that blue is somehow "for boys" or that kids are supposed to act fundamentally different just because of their gender? I mean, sorry, but personally, I find that whole mindset totally unacceptable. We’re living in a world where guys and girls both go for smooth legs, where color preferences haven't mattered for decades, and where we expect both boys and girls to step up and handle household chores equally, right? It's all just so outdated.

Let’s be real for a second—every single thing we think we know about Jesus is basically just high-level guesswork at this point, isn't it?

If you ask me, most of the stuff we tell ourselves—all those little stories we spin to justify our lives and convince our kids that everything is under control—is honestly just pure guesswork, isn't it?😁 I honestly just don't get the desperate need to go full ad hominem all of a sudden... like, is it really that hard to actually address the point being made instead of just taking a cheap shot at the person?

It’s honestly such a ridiculous situation when a kid shows up to school and they’re basically forced into this impossible choice—do they join the school assembly and ceremony, or do they just wander around aimlessly? When my kids were back in elementary school, we had this exact same headache every single year; right at the start of the term, the whole school would head out to a service for a blessing sometime mid-morning. And let me tell you, all the complaining from parents didn't do squat to change anything. The kids were stuck between a rock and a hard place: they could either go to the service along with everyone else, or they could just loiter around the school grounds, which wasn't even fenced in! It was sketchy, really, because they weren't even allowed to stay inside the building since, apparently, "nobody is around because everyone is at the service." It’s just a total mess, especially for those little ones in the lower grades who shouldn't be left to fend for themselves like that.

Look, obviously this kind of stuff is a massive problem and someone needs to step up and put a stop to it once and for all. Even as a believer myself, I can't wrap my head around why any kid would be wandering the streets alone while mine is home receiving a blessing... I mean, kids should be our absolute top priority, right? They’re the ones we as adults have a moral obligation to protect at all costs. But hey, it looks like people actually spoke up because those complaints clearly worked—that issue isn't even around anymore. As far as I know, students don't really have anything to do outside of school hours unless they're supervised by a teacher... and even in the lower grades, they aren't allowed to be left on their own during religious studies classes; there always has to be an adult watching over them. In my experience, it’s usually just their specific classroom teacher handling it, and from what I hear, that seems to be the standard across most schools in the US too.

Look, I get why some people are making a huge deal out of this, but honestly? It’s clearly an issue for at least a few folks. I mean, why on earth would you single kids out like that? Why drag them into situations they don't even have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around yet? Is it really such a massive problem for religious parents to take their child to a local church for a blessing, especially when that’s exactly where they belong?

Of course some people are going to take issue with this—it’s a given that there will always be someone complaining about something, isn't there? That's just how it goes. But what I actually find problematic is the way certain things are being hinted at here on the forum instead of being addressed where they can actually be fixed, especially if we're talking about something that might end up hurting our kids...
And look, we really shouldn't be playing into this whole division regarding blessings either, right? We can't go around stirring the pot and then turn around and try to play both sides when it comes to health education... because honestly, that’s exactly how you leave them feeling completely lost and confused. If we already saw how much resentment and hate those kinds of tactics caused before, why on earth would we want to pull that same stunt on our own children?🤷

Someone once made a pretty sharp point about how the Catholic Church seems obsessed with undermining scientific authority.

JPK said:It’s honestly hilarious how believers always scout out some murky, half-baked corner of science just so they can go looking for God there.
Isn't it a little beneath you to go hunting for the divine in the middle of a swamp?
And then, predictably, you all vanish the moment that field actually gets figured out.

First, it was cosmology, where poor old God eventually got squeezed down into Planck's time at the very dawn of the Big Bang.
Then you guys saw him everywhere in biology, only to end up retreating to abiogenesis.
Now, it looks like you're even trying to twist chaos theory to fit your narrative.

Don't you feel a bit embarrassed dragging God through the scientific landscape like he's some wandering band of nomads?