Religion classes in school - Megathread

Jacob Lewis5 said:Religious education is already being held in church halls anyway, so honestly, if they pull it out of the public schools, there won't be any issues—at least not for those looking for spiritual guidance. Where did all those "concerned" followers disappear to? I remember when we were tackling a nearly identical question about fifteen pages ago, and suddenly everyone went silent.

Honestly, trying to find a straight answer to this one is like looking for a needle in a haystack around here...I honestly don't get why people are making such a big deal out of this. It’s like everyone suddenly lost their minds over nothing. I remember back when I was working at a tech startup in Austin, we had a similar blowout over a minor policy change, and looking back, it was just pure drama for the sake of drama. People love to feel outraged; it gives them something to do on a Tuesday night. Anyway, Jason Ortiz5 makes a decent point, even if he is being a bit dramatic about it. And let's be real, brisknomad13 is totally missing the forest for the trees here. We need to stop circling the drain and actually look at the facts. If you ask me, most of this "outrage" is just noise. Typical.

Honestly, I’m starting to think this whole "tolerant" crowd is actually just allergic to anyone who holds traditional Christian values. It’s kind of ironic, isn't it?

Children from non-Catholic families wouldn't have gaps in their schedules.
Kids from non-Catholic backgrounds wouldn't be singled out based on their religious affiliation within the public school system.
The authority held by state-run schools wouldn't be exploited just to push a specific religious ideology.
And we wouldn't see absurd amounts of taxpayer money being drained to pay salaries for religious instructors or to print textbooks for subjects that exist solely to promote one particular religious group.

Nicole James said:Children from non-Catholic families wouldn't have gaps in their schedules.
Kids from non-Catholic backgrounds wouldn't be singled out based on their religious affiliation within the public school system.
The authority held by state-run schools wouldn't be exploited just to push a specific religious ideology.
And we wouldn't see absurd amounts of taxpayer money being drained to pay salaries for religious instructors or to print textbooks for subjects that exist solely to promote one particular religious group.

Losing jobs for religious instructors isn't some "win"—it’s a loss for their families, their spending power, the whole GDP...
Comparing "scheduling gaps" versus respecting diversity, maintaining the educational mission, and saving jobs... is such a wild clash of priorities. You’re acting like a gap in a timetable is the end of the world, while I honestly can't believe you're even using that as an argument.
It's not even about a "gap," because the Department of Education issued a directive stating these classes have to be first or last period anyway... and so far, there's zero proof they aren't following it. Plus, calling it a gap when nothing is actually missing just shows how shaky your logic is. Then you drop terms like absurd amounts of money... heavy stuff. It’s not absurd; we aren't talking about billions here, and it’s not even a negative thing if that money ends up in the pockets of American citizens who then spend it right here in the States.
And please, walk me through this part about the "abuse of school authority." I'm all ears.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Losing jobs for religious instructors isn't some "win"—it’s a loss for their families, their spending power, the whole GDP...
Comparing "scheduling gaps" versus respecting diversity, maintaining the educational mission, and saving jobs... is such a wild clash of priorities. You’re acting like a gap in a timetable is the end of the world, while I honestly can't believe you're even using that as an argument.
It's not even about a "gap," because the Department of Education issued a directive stating these classes have to be first or last period anyway... and so far, there's zero proof they aren't following it. Plus, calling it a gap when nothing is actually missing just shows how shaky your logic is. Then you drop terms like absurd amounts of money... heavy stuff. It’s not absurd; we aren't talking about billions here, and it’s not even a negative thing if that money ends up in the pockets of American citizens who then spend it right here in the States.
And please, walk me through this part about the "abuse of school authority." I'm all ears.

Wow, so basically, religious instructors need to stay entrenched in public schools at the expense of the economy and national debt just to artificially inflate the GDP? 😵

And you're still asking for proof that religious studies isn't explicitly held during the first or last period? Is the lived experience of the people in this forum not enough for you? Isn't it enough that the law clearly states these classes cannot be sandwiched in the middle of the daily schedule? Isn't it enough that representatives from the KC have specifically cited that exact law? If all of that doesn't suffice, then I can't prove it for you, sorry.

As for the abuse of authority, it's actually quite simple. In a school, you don't teach whatever a specific parent happens to want; you teach what society accepts as truth. We don't teach that 2+2 equals 4—or that certain political conspiracies are reality—simply because someone wants them to be; we teach it because there is a consensus among experts. Religious studies is the exception—a subject taught within the standard curriculum, graded with official marks, using textbooks printed by the Department of Education, yet its content doesn't align with scientific fact, but rather with the unprovable dogma of a single religious community.

Parish catechesis—or what most people call church education—has always been a staple in the church. It’s about diving deeper into faith, getting ready for sacraments, and actually being part of the community life.

Then you’ve got school religion classes. It’s an actual academic subject with its own curriculum, learning outcomes, and goals, just like math or history. It covers Catholic doctrine, sure, but it also touches on other religions, modern ethics, historical events involving the Church and American history, and all those cultural traditions rooted in Christian heritage... plus a whole lot more. You study interfaith dialogue, ecumenism, new religious movements, and how to engage with non-believers.

The church itself is a sacred space with specific liturgical rules meant for celebrating sacraments with dignity and devotion; it’s not designed to be a classroom for academic teaching.
Besides, anyone can sign up for religion class at school regardless of their worldview, but the actual sacramental life is lived by the practicing Catholics.
If you scrap religion classes in schools, you aren't just "moving" them back to the churches—because, again, that stuff already happens there. You’re basically just deleting the subject entirely.

I've made this point at least twice now. Is it really that hard to grasp the difference between parish catechesis and school religion class?!

Nicole James said:Wow, so basically, religious instructors need to stay entrenched in public schools at the expense of the economy and national debt just to artificially inflate the GDP? 😵

And you're still asking for proof that religious studies isn't explicitly held during the first or last period? Is the lived experience of the people in this forum not enough for you? Isn't it enough that the law clearly states these classes cannot be sandwiched in the middle of the daily schedule? Isn't it enough that representatives from the KC have specifically cited that exact law? If all of that doesn't suffice, then I can't prove it for you, sorry.

As for the abuse of authority, it's actually quite simple. In a school, you don't teach whatever a specific parent happens to want; you teach what society accepts as truth. We don't teach that 2+2 equals 4—or that certain political conspiracies are reality—simply because someone wants them to be; we teach it because there is a consensus among experts. Religious studies is the exception—a subject taught within the standard curriculum, graded with official marks, using textbooks printed by the Department of Education, yet its content doesn't align with scientific fact, but rather with the unprovable dogma of a single religious community.

Right now, this crowd still treats Christian values like gospel. As soon as that shifts, they’ll probably just rewrite the laws to match their new version of the truth.

brisknomad13 said:Right now, this crowd still treats Christian values like gospel. As soon as that shifts, they’ll probably just rewrite the laws to match their new version of the truth.

Keep dreaming.

Just read the constitution.

Those aren't just some weird fever dreams; it's the actual reality you guys would change if you could.
So, what are you waiting for?

Jacob Lewis5 said:Losing jobs for religious instructors isn't some "win"—it’s a loss for their families, their spending power, the whole GDP...
Comparing "scheduling gaps" versus respecting diversity, maintaining the educational mission, and saving jobs... is such a wild clash of priorities. You’re acting like a gap in a timetable is the end of the world, while I honestly can't believe you're even using that as an argument.
It's not even about a "gap," because the Department of Education issued a directive stating these classes have to be first or last period anyway... and so far, there's zero proof they aren't following it. Plus, calling it a gap when nothing is actually missing just shows how shaky your logic is. Then you drop terms like absurd amounts of money... heavy stuff. It’s not absurd; we aren't talking about billions here, and it’s not even a negative thing if that money ends up in the pockets of American citizens who then spend it right here in the States.
And please, walk me through this part about the "abuse of school authority." I'm all ears.

So a gap in the schedule isn't proven? Give me a break! Who knows why my kid is missing class when they're just wandering around halfway through the day! 😲 Plus, the teacher won't even protect them since she doesn't tell me when my kid is cutting class, nor does she mark them absent... 😛

brisknomad13 said:Right now, this crowd still treats Christian values like gospel. As soon as that shifts, they’ll probably just rewrite the laws to match their new version of the truth.

Sorry, but are we even living in the same country? Because if this is what passes for "Christian values" in America, then something is seriously rotten at the core of this nation.

Nicole James said:Wow, so basically, religious instructors need to stay entrenched in public schools at the expense of the economy and national debt just to artificially inflate the GDP? 😵

And you're still asking for proof that religious studies isn't explicitly held during the first or last period? Is the lived experience of the people in this forum not enough for you? Isn't it enough that the law clearly states these classes cannot be sandwiched in the middle of the daily schedule? Isn't it enough that representatives from the KC have specifically cited that exact law? If all of that doesn't suffice, then I can't prove it for you, sorry.

As for the abuse of authority, it's actually quite simple. In a school, you don't teach whatever a specific parent happens to want; you teach what society accepts as truth. We don't teach that 2+2 equals 4—or that certain political conspiracies are reality—simply because someone wants them to be; we teach it because there is a consensus among experts. Religious studies is the exception—a subject taught within the standard curriculum, graded with official marks, using textbooks printed by the Department of Education, yet its content doesn't align with scientific fact, but rather with the unprovable dogma of a single religious community.

Look, I never said religion teachers *have* to be bureaucrats or even employed... When asked about the consequences for religious education if it were removed from schools, I said there wouldn't be any. I didn't mention must at all.
The question was posed to you (and everyone else): what would be the benefit of removing religion classes? You argue for a slightly shorter school day, while I'm pointing out the job losses that such a reduction would trigger. To me, causing those kinds of consequences for such a trivial reason makes zero sense.
- You're exaggerating again. There haven't been x experiences here, and forum stories aren't necessarily reliable, but I don't buy them—especially when they're coming from people who treat anyone with a different opinion so poorly.
- It's called "religion education." The whole time, it's about faith, and the word "faith" gets mentioned a million times. There's no lying or abuse of authority involved; everything is stated openly and accurately. Nobody is teaching anything that goes against science.

Jason Ortiz5 said:So a gap in the schedule isn't proven? Give me a break! Who knows why my kid is missing class when they're just wandering around halfway through the day! 😲 Plus, the teacher won't even protect them since she doesn't tell me when my kid is cutting class, nor does she mark them absent... 😛

Give me the name of that school right now. I'm calling them. Such a blatant violation of Department of Education guidelines is totally unacceptable.

@Jacob Lewis5

Are you actually playing dumb on purpose, or what...? It’s common knowledge that religion classes are scattered all over the schedule in schools across America; people have been talking about this for years. But since you need a concrete example to wrap your head around, here’s one for you to look at:

So, there it is—Mladost Elementary School in Indianapolis. You can find their phone number right on the site if you feel like calling them yourself. Beyond the fact that religion class is jammed right in the middle of the school day, notice that we're looking at first graders here, and notice how the teacher has info scheduled during that exact slot. As for how they "supervise" those kids during those moments, I won't even go there.
You can check out the rest of that school's schedule here:

The internet is absolutely flooded with schedules from various elementary schools, but I really don't feel like listing every single one for you individually.

Then there's my own kid, who doesn't even take religion class, yet this year they have three out of four religion slots—basically just wasted time for anyone not attending—sandwiched right in the middle of the instruction day. During those times, they just sit in some empty classroom watching cartoons or playing hide-and-seek around the halls while the teacher handles whatever else she needs to do. I won't explicitly name the school because nobody on this forum needs to know where my child goes, but I will tell you it's one of the elementary schools on the west side of Washington, D.C. I haven't bothered intervening with the school because we're actually moving out of the country after the New Year for a job opportunity for my wife and me, but if we were staying, you can bet I would have had a very serious conversation with the "school officials."

Back home in Canada, it wasn't even an option at first, then they eventually made it an elective, regardless of which period you had.
When parents started complaining about the scheduling, they had to move it to the first or last slot of the day.

Then the kids slowly started losing interest, mostly because they’d watch their friends heading home while they were stuck sitting there, reading through some incredibly tedious material...

In a move to basically protect jobs for "their people," they introduced this subject called "Society, Culture, and Religion," so you could pick your poison.

How many kids actually take it just depends on the specific school and the local demographics.

My kids are in the "Society..." class, and honestly, it's fine—they learn things like social etiquette and stuff like that.

Personally, being an atheist, I don't have anything against a "Religion" course if it's treated as general culture—just a way to learn about others, different perspectives, and embracing diversity—but even then, maybe only in the higher grades.

darkranger42 said:@Jacob Lewis5

Are you actually playing dumb on purpose, or what...? It’s common knowledge that religion classes are scattered all over the schedule in schools across America; people have been talking about this for years. But since you need a concrete example to wrap your head around, here’s one for you to look at:

So, there it is—Mladost Elementary School in Indianapolis. You can find their phone number right on the site if you feel like calling them yourself. Beyond the fact that religion class is jammed right in the middle of the school day, notice that we're looking at first graders here, and notice how the teacher has info scheduled during that exact slot. As for how they "supervise" those kids during those moments, I won't even go there.
You can check out the rest of that school's schedule here:

The internet is absolutely flooded with schedules from various elementary schools, but I really don't feel like listing every single one for you individually.

Then there's my own kid, who doesn't even take religion class, yet this year they have three out of four religion slots—basically just wasted time for anyone not attending—sandwiched right in the middle of the instruction day. During those times, they just sit in some empty classroom watching cartoons or playing hide-and-seek around the halls while the teacher handles whatever else she needs to do. I won't explicitly name the school because nobody on this forum needs to know where my child goes, but I will tell you it's one of the elementary schools on the west side of Washington, D.C. I haven't bothered intervening with the school because we're actually moving out of the country after the New Year for a job opportunity for my wife and me, but if we were staying, you can bet I would have had a very serious conversation with the "school officials."

Done. The lady I spoke to—not sure exactly what her role is—told me something like this: they always try to schedule religion for the first or last period (you can see from looking at schedules that they do try), but sometimes it's just not possible, and there are also certain classes where everyone takes it. The kids are never left unsupervised.

I didn't say it *never* happens; I just said I don't buy the anecdotal stuff people post on forums. Especially when that's being used as the main argument for getting rid of religion classes altogether. I'm asking questions and doing my homework. Based on my chat with the woman at the school I mentioned earlier (the one Jason Ortiz5 knows about), I didn't run into any of the misunderstanding or pushiness people claim happens here.

Jacob Lewis5 As specified by Jason Ortiz5:
All set! I had a quick chat with a lovely lady there—I’m not entirely sure what her official title is, but she was very helpful. She explained that they generally try to schedule Religion classes during either the first or the last period of the day (and if you take a look at the schedules, you'll see she's absolutely right about that). While it isn't always possible to make that work perfectly, there are certainly some classes where every single student is enrolled in the course. Most importantly, she reassured me that the kids are never left unsupervised.

Looking over the latest schedules, I have to say, I’m not entirely convinced about the level of effort being put into this planning. It feels a bit disorganized; they managed to cram all the extra credit, supplemental lessons, and extracurricular activities into the very last period for almost every single grade level. To make matters even more inconsistent, Religion classes only seem to pop up every once in a while. For most classes, you won't find Religion scheduled at either the start or the end of the day. It just feels like an afterthought rather than a core part of the curriculum!

If they had actually put a little more thought into the scheduling, they could have easily slotted an extra session from a different subject right in the middle of the day and just pushed Religion to the very end of the afternoon.
Both of these subjects are elective courses.

Henry Cox78 said:Maybe it's because religious education hasn't been part of the curriculum for decades, so we just have to wait for this current generation to grow up and actually take charge of things.

I personally attended religious studies classes from '78 through '86. Which "decades" of absence are you actually referring to here?

Jacob Lewis5 said:Done. The lady I spoke to—not sure exactly what her role is—told me something like this: they always try to schedule religion for the first or last period (you can see from looking at schedules that they do try), but sometimes it's just not possible, and there are also certain classes where everyone takes it. The kids are never left unsupervised.

I didn't say it *never* happens; I just said I don't buy the anecdotal stuff people post on forums. Especially when that's being used as the main argument for getting rid of religion classes altogether. I'm asking questions and doing my homework. Based on my chat with the woman at the school I mentioned earlier (the one Jason Ortiz5 knows about), I didn't run into any of the misunderstanding or pushiness people claim happens here.

So, you don't trust the experiences shared on a forum, but you totally trust some polite voice on the phone from someone you don't even know—could be the secretary, could be the cafeteria lady—who would probably just tell you they don't care either way? I'm not buying it...

Here is an interesting article

We could probably dump a ton of content into other threads—especially regarding school reforms or the stress of getting C's—but since this specific discussion was about how much religious education costs us, I figured I’d drop the link and copy-paste it here:

While budget shortages mean the last time the government bought computer equipment for schools was back in 2008, in a secular nation, there's still enough money to fund about 3,000 religious instructors in elementary and high schools who work for the church but get paid by the state. According to last year's data from the U.S. Department of Education (though they haven't sent over updated figures by the time this was written), about $32 million is allocated annually for these instructors' salaries. That accounts for roughly three percent of the total federal budget dedicated to K-12 employee salaries. However, the actual cost these instructors represent to the taxpayers is significantly higher.

"Based on data from April 2014, there were 840 computer science teachers employed in elementary schools. As for religious instructors, there were 3,024 in total across elementary and high schools—with their annual salary costs totaling approximately $34 million," Gordana Zuccon, a spokesperson for the U.S. Department of Education, told Index.

Personally, I'm not really a huge fan of tablets or iPads; I've always felt there's something special about using a classic BIC pen, and I think you can learn so much more just by writing things down. That said, I am all for introducing computer science, teaching life skills like sewing and cooking, and I definitely think that if teachers start asking for photocopies or extra worksheets, they should take it up with the Church—or maybe the parents of the kids in those classes!
☕

It really feels like we’re just spinning our wheels sometimes, doesn't it... it's almost like watching a rhinoceros charge blindly through a field, completely oblivious to everything in its path... As if to say...
I’ve never been much of a tablet or iPad person myself, though there’s still something incredibly satisfying about jotting things down with a classic HBO pen... I truly believe you can absorb so much more when you actually put pen to paper. That said, I am all for bringing more computer science into the curriculum, and I’m a huge supporter of teaching practical life skills like sewing and cooking. But honestly, when teachers start getting on my nerves by constantly demanding photocopies or extra handouts, I feel like they should just take it up with the local church... or maybe just ask the parents of the kids in religious education to pick up the tab...
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The ambassadors representing the Coursera initiative—Toni Milun, Saša Cvetojević, Iva Šulentić, and Vedrana Miholić—have officially sent an open letter to the incoming Prime Minister, making a passionate plea for an immediate overhaul of the computer science curriculum in our elementary schools...

To the Honorable President of the United States...

The relentless pace of technological advancement is already reshaping our global economy and the very fabric of our society. As employers, parents, and engaged citizens, we feel quite strongly that America isn't quite ready to face these shifts head-on, which is why we are calling for immediate, decisive action... Enhancing education within the realm of STEM is no longer just an option; it’s a global necessity. All over the world, major initiatives are being launched to equip the next generation with the specific skill sets they'll need to navigate and actually build the future—a future that will look fundamentally different from the one we inhabit today. It is undeniable that America is already making strides in certain sectors, which proves that we absolutely have the capacity to succeed if we act now...

The American IT sector is seeing this incredible, steady climb in exports, and our homegrown startup scene is really starting to make some serious waves on the global stage, which is fantastic. What’s even more heartening to see is how our kids are absolutely crushing it at international coding and tech competitions... they truly are world-class. But, if we're being honest, we're also facing a pretty glaring gap in our domestic labor market. Right now, there is a massive shortage of hundreds of specialized software engineers across the country. Perhaps even more critical is the fact that digital literacy isn't being fully leveraged in other industries, which is starting to leave many American companies struggling to stay competitive. Most of those stellar results we see from our young tech prodigies are actually the direct result of incredibly passionate professors or dedicated robotics clubs... so, we clearly have a winning blueprint here, and we really need to find a way to scale that success nationwide...

A model that relies solely on raw enthusiasm just can't achieve the necessary scale, and frankly, it’s simply not sustainable in the long run... We truly believe that IT and general STEM education are absolutely vital to the future of our nation. While we are fully in favor of a comprehensive curriculum overhaul that aligns with the Department of Education's vision for science and technology, the current pace of implementation is, quite frankly, unacceptable to us. We are proposing that programming skills—not just as a technical tool, but as a fundamental way to sharpen logical reasoning and problem-solving abilities—be integrated into the school curriculum immediately; perhaps starting as electives, but they really ought to be prioritized over other extracurricular activities offered in elementary schools...

And that is exactly why we are putting this forward...

We really need to push forward with the curriculum reforms and make sure that computer science isn't just an afterthought in our schools... It’s absolutely vital that we start integrating logical reasoning and those essential problem-solving skills through programming lessons as early as elementary school, so kids are building that foundation from day one...

Since a complete overhaul of the national curriculum is such an incredibly long and drawn-out process, I really don't think we can afford to just sit around and wait... Many schools already have the necessary computer labs in place, and more importantly, they have access to talented teachers and professors who are ready to lead. My suggestion is that we immediately introduce elective coding workshops within the current framework to spark logical thinking in younger students, allowing those skills to grow steadily until the Department of Education eventually makes programming a mandatory part of the elementary school experience...

TO MAKE THIS A REALITY, WE NEED TO:

Take all that incredible energy from local non-profits, community clubs, and dedicated volunteers and turn it into official, structured partnerships with our public school system;

Launch specialized computer science workshops right within our schools to get these programs moving, ideally starting as early as the second semester of this current school year.

Ensure we have the full organizational, logistical, and advisory backing of the Department of Education.

It’s actually quite remarkable—in just the last three days, we’ve been flooded with messages from various clubs, community organizations, major corporations, teachers, and individual mentors who are already running brilliant projects and are more than ready to jump in and help. In America, there is such an abundance of specialized expertise, creative minds, and genuine passion out there... We truly want to believe that if the educational establishment shows even a little bit of flexibility and goodwill, we could achieve something monumental for the future of American students and our national economy.

Who knows, maybe one day, our educators will become one of America's greatest success stories?

Jacob Lewis5 said:Losing jobs for religious instructors isn't some "win"—it’s a loss for their families, their spending power, the whole GDP...
Comparing "scheduling gaps" versus respecting diversity, maintaining the educational mission, and saving jobs... is such a wild clash of priorities. You’re acting like a gap in a timetable is the end of the world, while I honestly can't believe you're even using that as an argument.
It's not even about a "gap," because the Department of Education issued a directive stating these classes have to be first or last period anyway... and so far, there's zero proof they aren't following it. Plus, calling it a gap when nothing is actually missing just shows how shaky your logic is. Then you drop terms like absurd amounts of money... heavy stuff. It’s not absurd; we aren't talking about billions here, and it’s not even a negative thing if that money ends up in the pockets of American citizens who then spend it right here in the States.
And please, walk me through this part about the "abuse of school authority." I'm all ears.

😠 My child is terrified and being mistreated in these "nonexistent and unproven" gaps.
They didn't know what to do with them, so they were just left to run wild in the hallways, alone in some empty classroom, or stuck on supervision duty with eighth graders.
🙂 A CHILD OF 6 AND A HALF YEARS OLD😠

As for the morality of people who go to church regularly, I don't want to—nor do I intend to—say anything...
and please, don't mention the educational system or religious studies in schools to me.
THAT HAS NO PLACE THERE, regardless of how much we debate it.
Even today, I can't forgive myself for not suing the school.

By the way, just so we're clear, I have received all my sacraments (oops, inaccurate description, I stopped by at the wedding 🕺), so this isn't about a second confession or having a father who is a staunch Communist; I know exactly why I don't want my child attending religious classes, and I have a Constitutional right to that choice.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Done. The lady I spoke to—not sure exactly what her role is—told me something like this: they always try to schedule religion for the first or last period (you can see from looking at schedules that they do try), but sometimes it's just not possible, and there are also certain classes where everyone takes it. The kids are never left unsupervised.

I didn't say it *never* happens; I just said I don't buy the anecdotal stuff people post on forums. Especially when that's being used as the main argument for getting rid of religion classes altogether. I'm asking questions and doing my homework. Based on my chat with the woman at the school I mentioned earlier (the one Jason Ortiz5 knows about), I didn't run into any of the misunderstanding or pushiness people claim happens here.

You... either are... or you're just pretending...
In any case, bravo, call them, get the facts...
This sounds like a massive conspiracy theory... people lie, and rumors spread... it doesn't even make sense to sink to your level anymore.

The title of this thread is totally off. It really ought to be called "Catholic religious instruction in schools," because let’s face it—during those religion classes, they're basically just brainwashing kids with Catholic doctrine.

Of course religious education has no business being in public schools. People can believe whatever they want in their own time, but what does that have to do with school?