Religion classes in school - Megathread

shadowcrane91 said:Ripped it down??? He probably just took them down, honestly I'm not even surprised. Religion class and Halloween?
Since when do those two things go together in any Catholic community in America????
Teaching about God while celebrating witches????

And then—the religion teacher removes a Halloween poster....
The same guy who's supposed to be teaching these kids to follow God instead of witches????
Oh no..... what a tragedy he's caused......

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A school isn't a Catholic parish.

silentraven6 said:A school isn't a Catholic parish.

Fine... okay... I misspoke there.
What I actually meant was that super religious Americans—like we talked about in the post—are totally baffled by this stuff... they're so devout they even go all out for Halloween...
Are we supposed to start taking cues from them????

I honestly didn't get that whole comparison between religious ed classes and Halloween.
What was the point? That not every religious studies teacher is actually qualified to teach religion????
Please, you find incompetent people in every single profession...

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Oh boy, those... projections 🤦
but hey, don't sweat it! Auntie teacher is here to give you a little lesson 🙂
see, Halloween doesn't actually have anything to do with witches or celebrating them. The word itself is just a clunky way it was translated into American English. It originally comes from All Hallows' Eve—you know, the night before All Saints' Day. Like I said, there isn't a single witch in sight.
Yeah, Christianity kind of... well, let's say they absorbed and integrated old Roman and Celtic traditions tied to the equinox because it was way easier to baptize customs than try to ban them and wipe them out. But it's the same deal with Christmas trees and Easter eggs—those were pagan traditions too, yet nobody calls them witchcraft or Satanism 😉 —right? 🤔
If anyone's actually curious, you can check out this great documentary.
The poster is up in the school because Halloween is part of the English language curriculum, taught as one of the specific cultural traditions from English-speaking countries. You still see those hysterical religious studies teachers every now and then who scream about it or rip down the posters (yeah, they actually tear them down and toss everything onto the floor/in the trash!) in schools.
And as for Americans—well, look, a colleague of mine who moved up to Canada wrote just last month about how her daughters' Catholic school has the whole campus decked out for Halloween, with pumpkin carving and even a costume dance. Clearly, that Catholic school isn't exactly some hardcore religious fortress, is it? 🤷 😉

Yeah... so celebrations and the way people party actually have something to do with Halloween? Wow... you're telling me that dressing up as witches and carving creepy pumpkins is somehow a precursor to All Saints' Day??
Honestly, in this day and age? NOPE.
Explain how on earth that connects to All Saints' Day then...
The way things look today doesn't connect to anything religious in any capacity whatsoever.

A "hysterical preacher"??? Man, you're killing me, that actually made me laugh.

Anyway, around here we just call them masquerades and costume parties... and they have a completely different vibe altogether.
What was said above seriously has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine... zero.
Like you pointed out, this is just a tradition from English-speaking countries... it's got nothing to do with Catholicism... unless that connection was lost a long time ago... but seriously...

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How can Catholics celebrate masquerades?

rowdypanther12 said:How can Catholics celebrate masquerades?

American culture is pretty soaked in superstition—some of it just folk tradition, but a lot of it actually affects how people live. Since I'm fairly close to the church, I know there’s a real effort being made to break those old cultural patterns. Faith is mostly about constant questioning and trying to find a sense of purpose beyond mere materialism. Everyone knows the folklore stuff isn't the core issue, but Halloween is different because of the timing and context. I’ll wrap this up using a closing thought from an excellent piece by Raspudić's: https://www.bitno.net/vijesti/nino-r...initovan-kraj/:

Is death the absolute end? It's an absurd question if you're looking for a rational answer, because you can't use the perspective of a mortal life to understand what lies beyond that horizon. You can only believe—either that it is the end if you're an atheist, or that it isn't, by trusting in the meaning provided through revelation if you're a believer. There’s some comfort in thinking it wouldn't be such a shock if life continued or repeated itself after death, considering how much of a miracle it was that it happened once in the first place. Or, to put it in classic philosophical terms: why is there something rather than nothing? How is it that the world existed before us, and how did we come to be? That "before us" clearly carried some kind of blueprint for our existence, suggesting there's a reason we turned out exactly as we are. This connection to our ancestors is vital. That's why visiting cemeteries on a soul day brings peace instead of unrest. By remembering the departed and facing our own mortality, we get a chance to live more fully and coherently. Or, we could just spend those days carving pumpkins and wearing costumes until the next holiday.

Tearing down posters in schools is incredibly stupid and harmful (you should see what actually went down). But the Church has a much better, honestly brilliant response that grows larger every year. It warms my heart to see how many young people show up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holywin.

shadowcrane91 said:Ripped it down??? He probably just took them down, honestly I'm not even surprised. Religion class and Halloween?
Since when do those two things go together in any Catholic community in America????
Teaching about God while celebrating witches????

And then—the religion teacher removes a Halloween poster....
The same guy who's supposed to be teaching these kids to follow God instead of witches????
Oh no..... what a tragedy he's caused......

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There are non-Catholics going to that school too. Who cares?

Besides, even Christmas was pulled from paganism. Is the priest gonna go visit a Christmas tree next?

Jessica Kelly4 said:Ever heard of a "black legend"? The British Empire used that tactic all the time to smear their enemies. Take Spain, for example—it’s notorious for being a land of cruelty, but most people don't realize half those stories were just British propaganda. The Brits were pros at that game.

A similar strategy against the church and its influence started with German philosophers in the early 20th century (look up the Frankfurt School if you want). Religion, especially the Catholic Church, was branded as the ultimate enemy. That war hasn't stopped; it just moved into the media, academia, and politics. It's probably too much political theory for this thread, so I'll stop there. For most people on forums like this, attacking the church is just a lazy way to signal how progressive they are.

Oh, lovely. As if we Catholics didn't give you enough to be scared of, now we need conspiracy theories to claim we're all brainwashed by lies because the church doesn't live up to its own values😵

When I talk about this stuff, I'm strictly talking from personal experience. Plus, I'm one of those people who, back during the "Communist era," myself actually went to religious education classes without anyone trying to stop me (since I was like a 7-year-old kid, it was actually pretty cool to learn all those wild stories about God; back then, believing in all that supernatural stuff was genuinely interesting to me). So, based on my life—from school religious ed to all the sacraments, talking to priests, and studying other religions and customs—I've landed where I am today: the Catholic Church is essentially a profit-driven organization that drifted away from Christian roots a long, long time ago. Sure, within the church, and even in places like the Republican Party or major banks, there are honest, decent people, but they're such a tiny minority that they can't shift the overall direction of the organization. Especially not when it comes to local branches like the church in America, which is so stuck in its ways that even high-ranking officials often clash with the Pope. Anyway, that's enough about them...

So, based on all that, as a parent, I don't want to subject my kid to indoctrination by this organization, no matter how good their marketing is or how much they try to look better than they actually are. The reality is that nobody I know is a good person *because* of this organization; they just maintain relationships with it because of the image it projects (that it’s an organization of good people).

Btw, something funny happened recently: a coworker of my wife's, who's a huge believer, was totally shocked when she found out we didn't have a church wedding. This woman, in her 30s, basically concluded that "she knows plenty of good, normal people who don't go to church, just like she knows plenty of bad people who go every week" (wow, what a groundbreaking realization for an adult). So she wasn't surprised my wife is a good person despite not attending, but she did say she "felt bad because we're living in sin."
It would never even cross my mind to tell a believer "I feel bad for you because you're a believer" (because I think everyone should carry their own weight, so if someone wants to tie themselves to that organization and its worldview, that's their business). But on the flip side, believers are constantly judging non-believers with comments like that. It's like Jesus said: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (man, that Catholic stone hit home...) and "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Look, I know everything Jesus said, but I'm not Catholic and I'm "living in sin" in a marriage without a church sacrament.)

shadowcrane91 said:So why is everyone blaming religious education for EVERYTHING???? Instead of blaming the government that actually put it there...
What exactly is the problem with it for you guys?

I honestly feel worse for the kids sitting through religion class when their whole family doesn't even live like that at home... they aren't even trying...
Since it's an option, I'm happy my kids attend...
If we were a different faith or if I just didn't care, they'd be going regardless, even if it meant having a gap in their schedule...

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The current administration's term expired ages ago, the main puppeteer is gone, and that joke of a Supreme Court basically claimed they had nothing to do with it. And yeah, we tend to blame every government that follows. You can see it right here in this thread. But still, that doesn't make the hypocrisy or having religious classes in public schools any less inappropriate.

Defining what school actually is matters. I’ll pull a definition from Wikipedia, which likely just copied some academic textbook:

Quincy:

A school is an educational institution centered on instruction. In modern pedagogical views, it's seen as a community involving all its members: students, teachers, parents, specialists, and staff. Through this instruction, subjects acquire knowledge, skills, abilities, and habits.

If we used a minimalist definition, it would be enough for kids to just pick up some math logic and basic English literacy. They could then take specialized courses later to get a job and, basically, earn a living.

Luckily, it doesn't work that way. The goal of civilization is captured in that definition above: knowledge, skills, abilities, and habits. It's about building well-rounded people with culture and insight. It's the transfer of vital segments from one generation to the next. Religion is definitely a core pillar of human civilization—and for those who are religious, probably the most important one. The definition clearly states that parents are a key part of the school system; passing down essential life values is also part of education.

The only question is whether religious education should receive public funding. I'd say no in places where interest is low. But even that's debatable given how much political correctness and affirmative action are pushed today. We see massive support for various minority groups constantly, so why should religious minorities be any different? In America, where a huge percentage of people identify as believers and a massive number of kids attend religious classes, that funding should certainly be handled the same way.

says:
... as a parent, I refuse to let my child be indoctrinated by that organization...

Is anyone actually forcing you? If they are, then I’m with you. At its core, faith is about freedom.
Benedict XVI, a heavyweight theologian for the Catholic Church for decades, explicitly wrote that the Church should never aim for a religious state where faith is mandatory. You can believe whatever you want, but the modern secular state didn't just pop up out of nowhere; it emerged in the West within the framework of Catholic tradition. I expect this secular state to respect the role of religion in its institutions today.

PS
By the way, these aren't conspiracy theories. It's a classic ideological war, and it's pretty well documented.

I don't even know where to start with this... honestly just feels like we're spinning our wheels here. hiddenscout44 says:
Anyone pushing you around? If they are, I’m right there with you... at the core, faith is all about freedom...

Nobody’s forcing my hand directly, but they’re using these sneaky, underhanded tactics to pressure everyone. It’s the exact same playbook those extremists used during those anti-abortion protests... just applied differently. Now it’s about schools, trying to give pseudoscience the same weight as actual science, pushing certain agendas into the curriculum, and signing state contracts that basically force the government to adopt non-secular policies... it's all part of the same scheme...

I don't know what to tell you... just feels like we're spinning our wheels here. hiddenscout44 says:
Benedict XVI was a heavy hitter in theology for decades. He actually wrote out clearly that the Church should never aim for a religious state where people are forced to follow a specific faith...

It’s wild... you've got this one church basically fighting tooth and nail against Catholic religious states—especially ours, where priests are out here telling people exactly who to vote for... 😵

Jessica Kelly4 said:

says:
... as a parent, I refuse to let my child be indoctrinated by that organization...

Is anyone actually forcing you? If they are, then I’m with you. At its core, faith is about freedom.
Benedict XVI, a heavyweight theologian for the Catholic Church for decades, explicitly wrote that the Church should never aim for a religious state where faith is mandatory. You can believe whatever you want, but the modern secular state didn't just pop up out of nowhere; it emerged in the West within the framework of Catholic tradition. I expect this secular state to respect the role of religion in its institutions today.

PS
By the way, these aren't conspiracy theories. It's a classic ideological war, and it's pretty well documented.

🤣 It just went the other way!...
The modern secular state didn't just pop out of nowhere under the wing of the Catholic Church. It actually emerged as a direct response to... The crackdown... Catholicism had such a massive reach. But honestly, all that repression is exactly what triggered the split and forced the church back into its rightful place—making faith a personal choice you fund out of your own pocket. It shouldn’t be like it is here, where we’re still basically under the state's wing... it's a far cry from what true secularism actually looks like.

Jessica Kelly4 said:

says:
... as a parent, I refuse to let my child be indoctrinated by that organization...

Is anyone actually forcing you? If they are, then I’m with you. At its core, faith is about freedom.
Benedict XVI, a heavyweight theologian for the Catholic Church for decades, explicitly wrote that the Church should never aim for a religious state where faith is mandatory. You can believe whatever you want, but the modern secular state didn't just pop up out of nowhere; it emerged in the West within the framework of Catholic tradition. I expect this secular state to respect the role of religion in its institutions today.

PS
By the way, these aren't conspiracy theories. It's a classic ideological war, and it's pretty well documented.

Just like those well-documented screw-ups by church officials, and unlike those conspiracy theories you're pushing, these mistakes are actually public record...

hiddenscout44 said:

I don't even know where to start with this... honestly just feels like we're spinning our wheels here. hiddenscout44 says:
Anyone pushing you around? If they are, I’m right there with you... at the core, faith is all about freedom...

Nobody’s forcing my hand directly, but they’re using these sneaky, underhanded tactics to pressure everyone. It’s the exact same playbook those extremists used during those anti-abortion protests... just applied differently. Now it’s about schools, trying to give pseudoscience the same weight as actual science, pushing certain agendas into the curriculum, and signing state contracts that basically force the government to adopt non-secular policies... it's all part of the same scheme...

I don't know what to tell you... just feels like we're spinning our wheels here. hiddenscout44 says:
Benedict XVI was a heavy hitter in theology for decades. He actually wrote out clearly that the Church should never aim for a religious state where people are forced to follow a specific faith...

It’s wild... you've got this one church basically fighting tooth and nail against Catholic religious states—especially ours, where priests are out here telling people exactly who to vote for... 😵

🤣 It just went the other way!...
The modern secular state didn't just pop out of nowhere under the wing of the Catholic Church. It actually emerged as a direct response to... The crackdown... Catholicism had such a massive reach. But honestly, all that repression is exactly what triggered the split and forced the church back into its rightful place—making faith a personal choice you fund out of your own pocket. It shouldn’t be like it is here, where we’re still basically under the state's wing... it's a far cry from what true secularism actually looks like.

Just like those well-documented screw-ups by church officials, and unlike those conspiracy theories you're pushing, these mistakes are actually public record...

... and people will fight back if their faith and religion aren't a priority.
What you're calling "sneaky tactics" is actually just standard political and social maneuvering used by all kinds of organizations and institutions. Since religious education is part of the curriculum in almost every country in Europe, it clearly matters enough to most people. I won't touch anything else so we don't lose the thread here.

PS
I have to jump in and say that America isn't a religious state, not even in theory. That's a pretty malicious claim to make.

rowdypanther12 said:How can Catholics celebrate masquerades?

As for me... I'm definitely not a fan. Honestly, I think the whole thing is pretty lame.

Lawrence Torres56 said:

I can't believe I'm even seeing this username floating around here again. Honestly, what is the deal with some people? Is there a specific reason why certain handles just refuse to die out, or is it just some weird cosmic joke being played on us all? Seriously, it’s like looking at a ghost from a thread that should have been buried months ago. Why does it feel like we're constantly tripping over the same old relics? kaže:
So, what exactly do you think I've got sitting around here? You really believe I'm just out here making stuff up for the hell of it, or do you actually think I have some kind of hard evidence to back this up?
So, you take a look at the enrollment numbers for religious education classes across different school districts—I mean, you’ve got certain classrooms where the attendance is sitting at a perfect 100%—and then you lay that right next to the statistics on peer-to-peer bullying and violence in those same schools... doesn't that just make you wonder what kind of connection is actually hiding in plain sight?

Look, I’m not some fragile little thing that needs to be wrapped in bubble wrap, okay? Please, just stop twisting my words around and putting things in my mouth that I never actually said.
Look, I’m not saying that having religious studies in our schools gives anyone a free pass to act out or get violent—I'm absolutely not justifying any kind of violence just because religion exists in the classroom. 😕I mean, I’m just sitting here scratching my head, trying to wrap my mind around how on earth that’s even possible, you know? Like, how does someone even end up in a spot like that, especially when it's a place where every single kid in town is heading off to their religious studies classes? It just doesn't add up, does it? 🤔

Look, if religious studies aren't actually having any real impact—and I mean zero, or at least pretty damn close to it—on what kids are learning once they get home, then why are we even bothering? If it’s just some isolated thing that doesn't connect to anything else in their lives, isn't it basically just useless filler?
Honestly, it’s just a massive, blatant waste of taxpayer money to be lining the pockets of these high-priced consultants, isn't it? Just throwing hard-earned cash down the drain to pay for people who basically exist just to tell us what we already know.

Look, I feel like I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve laid this out right here, but honestly, can we just finally admit it? Parents—no matter how much they love their kids or how smart they think they are—just aren't equipped to teach high-level math or physics at home. It’s just not happening. You can try to sit there with a textbook and some coffee, but when you get into the heavy stuff, you're basically flying blind, right? That’s exactly why schools exist in the first place. We need specialized teachers and actual classrooms for this kind of content because, let’s face it, trying to DIY a calculus curriculum is just a recipe for frustration for everyone involved.
I mean, let’s be real for a second—if someone is actually preaching religion, they should at least have the decency to follow through on the most important part, right? It’s one thing to spout all those lofty ideals and moral lessons from a pulpit, but if you aren't actually living out that faith in your day-to-day life, isn't the whole thing just kind of hollow? Like, what's the point of talking a big game about devotion if your actions don't back it up when it actually matters?

If religious education doesn't actually have any kind of moral impact on a kid who’s already wired for aggressive behavior—you know, if they just end up picking up bad habits that their family couldn't even drill into them—then I really have to wonder: what's even the point? Like, seriously, what's the actual purpose of sitting through all those lessons on religious doctrine for kids who are already part of faith-based families? If they're already getting everything they need from their parents at home and then heading off to church every Sunday, isn't all that extra schoolwork just redundant? 🤷

Look, for an accusation that malicious, I’m gonna need to see some actual, credible proof before I even consider buying into it...
Statistics aren't exactly your best friend here, are they? I mean, if you look at the raw numbers, someone’s over there just gnawing on a plain piece of Wonder Bread while another person is sitting pretty with a plate full of high-end prosciutto, but according to the math, everyone's out here enjoying a perfectly balanced, gourmet deli sandwich. It's kind of ridiculous when you actually think about it, right?

Look, I’m sorry, but what am I even tripping over here? Seriously, just take another look at what you actually wrote and you'll see exactly where you're coming from... it’s just so... I don't know, off. Are we really going to go around throwing shade at religion classes just to provide some kind of convenient cover for bullies and school violence? Is that really the angle we're taking now?😢
Wait, how on earth is that even possible? You actually got an answer from me already? Seriously? Well, fine, if you really need me to go over it all again, I’ll just repeat myself for you—I guess I don't have much of a choice, right?
You know those types of people—the ones who are just straight-up toxic and live for the drama? The kind of folks who basically survive on nothing but lies and spreading rumors? It’s honestly pathetic. They’ll go out of their way to sign their kids up for religious education classes at school, even though they don't believe in any of it and couldn't care less about faith if their lives depended on it. Why do they do it? Because it gives them all this juicy little ammunition to gossip about and use as fuel for their endless, petty little schemes.

Look, you know this is true just as well as everyone else on this board does, but I guess it’s just too damn hard for people to actually admit it out loud, isn't it? The real issue here isn't some debate over religious studies or theology; the actual problem is the ideology driving the whole thing. We've reached this point where it's apparently "better" to let some aggressor off the hook—someone who's perfectly fine giving us a metaphorical spanking if it keeps the peace—than to actually stand up and allow someone who isn't bothering anyone at all to just live their life exactly how they want to? It's wild, really.

Look, before you go jumping down anyone's throat or passing judgment on what’s actually worth what, just do me a favor and check out these links, alright? Seriously, take a second to read through them first so you actually know what we're dealing with before you start throwing accusations around.
http://www.os-pkanavelica-korcula.sk.../vjeronauk.pdf

I was just digging through this PDF link—it’s basically a breakdown of the grading criteria for these school assignments—and honestly, looking at all these specific requirements makes me wonder if we’re actually teaching kids how to think or just training them to be world-class bureaucrats? I mean, you look at the way they weigh certain rubric points versus others, and it feels like there's more emphasis on following the exact formatting structure than actually having an original thought, doesn't it? It’s that classic academic trap where if you nail the font size and the margin width, you get the A, even if your actual argument is a bit thin. Does anyone else feel like this kind of rigid standardization is kind of killing the creative spark in the classroom before it even has a chance to catch fire? It’s such a heavy lift for students to juggle all these technicalities on top of the actual subject matter.

I mean, seriously, what’s stopping a parent from just sitting down and teaching their kid some physics or math? Is there some unwritten rule out there that says you need a PhD from MIT just to explain basic algebra or how gravity works? Honestly, I don't see the problem. If you've got the patience and you actually know your stuff, why shouldn't you be the one guiding them through it? It’s kind of wild to think that we assume only a classroom setting counts as "real" learning, right? 🤷 I mean, look, the guy actually went through the whole grind and finished his degree, right? He put in all those hours, hit the books, survived the exams—so he’s clearly got some actual knowledge under his belt. It's not like he just woke up one day knowing how things work; he actually did the work.
Look, if you skipped out on religion class back in school, don't expect to be sitting in the pews on Sunday morning... I mean, honestly, does it even matter if they know a single thing about faith at this point?
So, what’s the move here? Are we really going to strip this guy of his rights just because you or some other random person finds religious studies a bit too much to stomach? Is that how we're playing it now?

Do you actually have proof that dishonest people are enrolling their kids in religion class?
Isn't that a bit of a mean-spirited assumption? 🤔

On the other hand, I'm talking about the actual statistics regarding students reported for school violence by administrators or other institutions.
Within those numbers, the vast majority attended religious education at school (which is easy enough to verify, whether you check with a specific school during a free period or just ask a kid how their class went and what they're learning 🥳).

I honestly don't know what logic you're using to suggest I'm blaming religion for violence, because that wasn't my intention, nor does it make any sense to me.
My question was simply: how is it possible that after seven years of lessons and repetition, a child still can't grasp the basic rule of "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you"?

Supporters of these programs argue that these values are taught at home and that school has no influence (basically washing their hands of the responsibility), even though I believe influence is cumulative. If something is consistent over many years, it can actually overcome a negative environment at home.

But I have to ask, if religious education has absolutely no influence, then what is its purpose in the public school system?
If everything is supposedly learned within the family?

Or is the goal to just baptize non-religious kids so they become "good and obedient" and we get better numbers (meaning higher enrollment and more believers)? Meanwhile, we do nothing about the kids who are already prone to violence because "it all comes from the home" and we shouldn't interfere, essentially pretending the problem doesn't exist.
(Though, from what I hear, the Church would probably try to act like social workers and visit families. Honestly, I'm not against that. Right now, clergy often earn more than social workers, so it might be nice if they spent a little time looking after their local communities when they come for school visits. My only concern is the sanctity of the confessional; since priests aren't required to report certain crimes, I worry a lot of issues would stay buried within the family... without any real change.)

Jessica Kelly4 said:... and people will fight back if their faith and religion aren't a priority.
What you're calling "sneaky tactics" is actually just standard political and social maneuvering used by all kinds of organizations and institutions. Since religious education is part of the curriculum in almost every country in Europe, it clearly matters enough to most people. I won't touch anything else so we don't lose the thread here.

PS
I have to jump in and say that America isn't a religious state, not even in theory. That's a pretty malicious claim to make.

"if they can do it, why can't we?" yeah, obviously. why would the church bother setting a good example when they can just use shady methods because everyone else is doing it? typical religious hypocrisy right there.
And this idea that "citizens will resist"... please. most people are just sheep. folks wouldn't resist if someone broke into their house and started trashing their living room. I had an example of this literally yesterday—being brave as I am, I was filming and calling out some jerk who was dumping trash at an illegal dump site, while some other guy just walked past us, pulling his jacket tight like it had nothing to do with him. He didn't stop to help report this animal to the cops; instead, I'm the one stuck dealing with the confrontation and eventually the legal mess. Because yeah, "citizens will resist"...

Look, what I'm about to say comes from years of observing this: most people—like, 90% of them—are just plain sheep who follow a leader. You can impose a leader on anyone, and it usually works through intimidation, just like those extremists in the anti-abortion movements or those hypocritical types over at the local big-name charity, or even just some relative holding onto the family inheritance. Most people will happily bow down to people like that just to stay in their good graces, just so they don't end up being the ones under the spotlight getting asked, "Are you sure? Is that your final answer?"
And organizations exploit that big time. Fine, people are responsible for their own choices. But don't try to sell me on morality, holiness, or "saving souls" and all that fake stuff the church and "religious" groups peddle, because that's the last thing those organizations actually care about...

I don't know what you want me to do with just a single username. Give me some actual text to work with! kaže:
The current administration is long past its expiration date, the main puppeteer is dead and gone, and that joke of a Supreme Court just washed their hands of the whole thing by claiming they don't even have jurisdiction. And honestly? We’re the ones to blame for every single government that followed. You can see it right here in this thread. But none of that excuses the hypocrisy of forcing religious studies into our public schools. It's totally inappropriate.

So, let me get this straight: every single administration is to blame for religious ed in schools, but the curriculum itself? Totally innocent. Right. And everyone’s just out here throwing stones at... RELIGIOUS STUDIES. Give me a break.
Look, religious studies is just religious studies. It’s not like anyone’s actually out there committing crimes or causing chaos because of it...
Finally, some actual clarity around this mess...

hiddenscout44 said:Oh, lovely. As if we Catholics didn't give you enough to be scared of, now we need conspiracy theories to claim we're all brainwashed by lies because the church doesn't live up to its own values😵

When I talk about this stuff, I'm strictly talking from personal experience. Plus, I'm one of those people who, back during the "Communist era," myself actually went to religious education classes without anyone trying to stop me (since I was like a 7-year-old kid, it was actually pretty cool to learn all those wild stories about God; back then, believing in all that supernatural stuff was genuinely interesting to me). So, based on my life—from school religious ed to all the sacraments, talking to priests, and studying other religions and customs—I've landed where I am today: the Catholic Church is essentially a profit-driven organization that drifted away from Christian roots a long, long time ago. Sure, within the church, and even in places like the Republican Party or major banks, there are honest, decent people, but they're such a tiny minority that they can't shift the overall direction of the organization. Especially not when it comes to local branches like the church in America, which is so stuck in its ways that even high-ranking officials often clash with the Pope. Anyway, that's enough about them...

So, based on all that, as a parent, I don't want to subject my kid to indoctrination by this organization, no matter how good their marketing is or how much they try to look better than they actually are. The reality is that nobody I know is a good person *because* of this organization; they just maintain relationships with it because of the image it projects (that it’s an organization of good people).

Btw, something funny happened recently: a coworker of my wife's, who's a huge believer, was totally shocked when she found out we didn't have a church wedding. This woman, in her 30s, basically concluded that "she knows plenty of good, normal people who don't go to church, just like she knows plenty of bad people who go every week" (wow, what a groundbreaking realization for an adult). So she wasn't surprised my wife is a good person despite not attending, but she did say she "felt bad because we're living in sin."
It would never even cross my mind to tell a believer "I feel bad for you because you're a believer" (because I think everyone should carry their own weight, so if someone wants to tie themselves to that organization and its worldview, that's their business). But on the flip side, believers are constantly judging non-believers with comments like that. It's like Jesus said: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (man, that Catholic stone hit home...) and "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Look, I know everything Jesus said, but I'm not Catholic and I'm "living in sin" in a marriage without a church sacrament.)

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hiddenscout44 said:Oh, lovely. As if we Catholics didn't give you enough to be scared of, now we need conspiracy theories to claim we're all brainwashed by lies because the church doesn't live up to its own values😵

When I talk about this stuff, I'm strictly talking from personal experience. Plus, I'm one of those people who, back during the "Communist era," myself actually went to religious education classes without anyone trying to stop me (since I was like a 7-year-old kid, it was actually pretty cool to learn all those wild stories about God; back then, believing in all that supernatural stuff was genuinely interesting to me). So, based on my life—from school religious ed to all the sacraments, talking to priests, and studying other religions and customs—I've landed where I am today: the Catholic Church is essentially a profit-driven organization that drifted away from Christian roots a long, long time ago. Sure, within the church, and even in places like the Republican Party or major banks, there are honest, decent people, but they're such a tiny minority that they can't shift the overall direction of the organization. Especially not when it comes to local branches like the church in America, which is so stuck in its ways that even high-ranking officials often clash with the Pope. Anyway, that's enough about them...

So, based on all that, as a parent, I don't want to subject my kid to indoctrination by this organization, no matter how good their marketing is or how much they try to look better than they actually are. The reality is that nobody I know is a good person *because* of this organization; they just maintain relationships with it because of the image it projects (that it’s an organization of good people).

Btw, something funny happened recently: a coworker of my wife's, who's a huge believer, was totally shocked when she found out we didn't have a church wedding. This woman, in her 30s, basically concluded that "she knows plenty of good, normal people who don't go to church, just like she knows plenty of bad people who go every week" (wow, what a groundbreaking realization for an adult). So she wasn't surprised my wife is a good person despite not attending, but she did say she "felt bad because we're living in sin."
It would never even cross my mind to tell a believer "I feel bad for you because you're a believer" (because I think everyone should carry their own weight, so if someone wants to tie themselves to that organization and its worldview, that's their business). But on the flip side, believers are constantly judging non-believers with comments like that. It's like Jesus said: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (man, that Catholic stone hit home...) and "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Look, I know everything Jesus said, but I'm not Catholic and I'm "living in sin" in a marriage without a church sacrament.)

Alright... so what's the actual problem here? Is someone forcing you to do this or what?

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Susan James said:Do you actually have proof that dishonest people are enrolling their kids in religion class?
Isn't that a bit of a mean-spirited assumption? 🤔

On the other hand, I'm talking about the actual statistics regarding students reported for school violence by administrators or other institutions.
Within those numbers, the vast majority attended religious education at school (which is easy enough to verify, whether you check with a specific school during a free period or just ask a kid how their class went and what they're learning 🥳).

I honestly don't know what logic you're using to suggest I'm blaming religion for violence, because that wasn't my intention, nor does it make any sense to me.
My question was simply: how is it possible that after seven years of lessons and repetition, a child still can't grasp the basic rule of "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you"?

Supporters of these programs argue that these values are taught at home and that school has no influence (basically washing their hands of the responsibility), even though I believe influence is cumulative. If something is consistent over many years, it can actually overcome a negative environment at home.

But I have to ask, if religious education has absolutely no influence, then what is its purpose in the public school system?
If everything is supposedly learned within the family?

Or is the goal to just baptize non-religious kids so they become "good and obedient" and we get better numbers (meaning higher enrollment and more believers)? Meanwhile, we do nothing about the kids who are already prone to violence because "it all comes from the home" and we shouldn't interfere, essentially pretending the problem doesn't exist.
(Though, from what I hear, the Church would probably try to act like social workers and visit families. Honestly, I'm not against that. Right now, clergy often earn more than social workers, so it might be nice if they spent a little time looking after their local communities when they come for school visits. My only concern is the sanctity of the confessional; since priests aren't required to report certain crimes, I worry a lot of issues would stay buried within the family... without any real change.)

Kids soak up everything like sponges. It’s everything around them—their parents, nature, the media they consume, school... you name it. Everything leaves a mark.

I honestly have no clue where you're getting this idea that everyone just ignores abused kids and "washes their hands" of the whole situation... seriously?

Look, in every single school or daycare I’ve ever stepped foot in, they try to handle this kind of stuff regardless of whether religious studies is even on the table. It's just how things work.
The real headache starts when it’s a one-way street—like if one parent just refuses to play ball, or if the kid is totally checked out and ignoring the issue entirely. That’s where things get messy.

In religious ed classes, they teach the history of Catholicism, stories of the saints, how to pray, church structure, and those core moral values every kid ought to pick up along the way...
But let’s be real: if a kid is being pushed into religion for all the wrong reasons—if the people around them aren't actually living out those values, or if they're constantly surrounded by violence and chaos—how on earth do you expect religious ed, the church, or even school to fix all that????

hiddenscout44 said:"if they can do it, why can't we?" yeah, obviously. why would the church bother setting a good example when they can just use shady methods because everyone else is doing it? typical religious hypocrisy right there.
And this idea that "citizens will resist"... please. most people are just sheep. folks wouldn't resist if someone broke into their house and started trashing their living room. I had an example of this literally yesterday—being brave as I am, I was filming and calling out some jerk who was dumping trash at an illegal dump site, while some other guy just walked past us, pulling his jacket tight like it had nothing to do with him. He didn't stop to help report this animal to the cops; instead, I'm the one stuck dealing with the confrontation and eventually the legal mess. Because yeah, "citizens will resist"...

Look, what I'm about to say comes from years of observing this: most people—like, 90% of them—are just plain sheep who follow a leader. You can impose a leader on anyone, and it usually works through intimidation, just like those extremists in the anti-abortion movements or those hypocritical types over at the local big-name charity, or even just some relative holding onto the family inheritance. Most people will happily bow down to people like that just to stay in their good graces, just so they don't end up being the ones under the spotlight getting asked, "Are you sure? Is that your final answer?"
And organizations exploit that big time. Fine, people are responsible for their own choices. But don't try to sell me on morality, holiness, or "saving souls" and all that fake stuff the church and "religious" groups peddle, because that's the last thing those organizations actually care about...

Not sure about you, but I'm not. And I don't see my fellow Americans that way either.

Jessica Kelly4, I think you’re overstating things here.

Shouldn't religious studies in our schools actually be about learning about different faiths and belief systems from an unbiased perspective? The goal should be to help kids develop critical thinking skills—to encourage them to question the world around them and truly think for themselves. Why does that equate to Christian indoctrination? This whole argument that these classes exist just to teach children "morality" or "goodness"... honestly, please. It feels more like teaching them how to be compliant followers under the guise of a faith that claims to only promote virtue.
The curriculum taught in public schools ought to be entirely distinct from what they teach in a church basement.