Religion classes in school - Megathread

Susan James said:Do you actually have proof that dishonest people are enrolling their kids in religion class?
Isn't that a bit of a mean-spirited assumption? 🤔

On the other hand, I'm talking about the actual statistics regarding students reported for school violence by administrators or other institutions.
Within those numbers, the vast majority attended religious education at school (which is easy enough to verify, whether you check with a specific school during a free period or just ask a kid how their class went and what they're learning 🥳).

I honestly don't know what logic you're using to suggest I'm blaming religion for violence, because that wasn't my intention, nor does it make any sense to me.
My question was simply: how is it possible that after seven years of lessons and repetition, a child still can't grasp the basic rule of "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you"?

Supporters of these programs argue that these values are taught at home and that school has no influence (basically washing their hands of the responsibility), even though I believe influence is cumulative. If something is consistent over many years, it can actually overcome a negative environment at home.

But I have to ask, if religious education has absolutely no influence, then what is its purpose in the public school system?
If everything is supposedly learned within the family?

Or is the goal to just baptize non-religious kids so they become "good and obedient" and we get better numbers (meaning higher enrollment and more believers)? Meanwhile, we do nothing about the kids who are already prone to violence because "it all comes from the home" and we shouldn't interfere, essentially pretending the problem doesn't exist.
(Though, from what I hear, the Church would probably try to act like social workers and visit families. Honestly, I'm not against that. Right now, clergy often earn more than social workers, so it might be nice if they spent a little time looking after their local communities when they come for school visits. My only concern is the sanctity of the confessional; since priests aren't required to report certain crimes, I worry a lot of issues would stay buried within the family... without any real change.)

How is it that after centuries of supposed enlightenment, we're back to war, slaughterhouses, and human trafficking? It’s unexpected, honestly. Clearly, good and evil are baked into our DNA—that gray area where logic meets pure impulse. You can't just strip away animal instinct. This isn't just about religion or Sunday school; it's a failure of civilization itself. Or maybe just a failure of the entire education system within it.

Jessica Kelly4 said:Not sure about you, but I'm not. And I don't see my fellow Americans that way either.

Reagan said it a long time ago: "Americans are just small-time cattle."

Larry Walker24 said:Reagan said it a long time ago: "Americans are just small-time cattle."

And honestly, he wasn't wrong. Whether someone here actually views their fellow citizens as equals or not is just their own (flawed) perspective... but the fact that even with democracy, we haven't moved an inch in 25 years—we're actually sinking—just shows how incapable this country is of doing anything meaningful.

But that’s not even the main point. It’s more about cause and effect: religious education in our schools is just a direct result of the people being too weak to resist those who exploit them.

Lawrence Allen4 said:Jessica Kelly4, I think you’re overstating things here.

Shouldn't religious studies in our schools actually be about learning about different faiths and belief systems from an unbiased perspective? The goal should be to help kids develop critical thinking skills—to encourage them to question the world around them and truly think for themselves. Why does that equate to Christian indoctrination? This whole argument that these classes exist just to teach children "morality" or "goodness"... honestly, please. It feels more like teaching them how to be compliant followers under the guise of a faith that claims to only promote virtue.
The curriculum taught in public schools ought to be entirely distinct from what they teach in a church basement.

The whole point of religious education is to completely shut down critical thinking. Honestly, it’s about as compatible with a real education as smoking is with staying healthy.

Lawrence Allen4 said:Jessica Kelly4, I think you’re overstating things here.

Shouldn't religious studies in our schools actually be about learning about different faiths and belief systems from an unbiased perspective? The goal should be to help kids develop critical thinking skills—to encourage them to question the world around them and truly think for themselves. Why does that equate to Christian indoctrination? This whole argument that these classes exist just to teach children "morality" or "goodness"... honestly, please. It feels more like teaching them how to be compliant followers under the guise of a faith that claims to only promote virtue.
The curriculum taught in public schools ought to be entirely distinct from what they teach in a church basement.

I’m all in on that bolded part—but there's a catch, because—well, it doesn't exist. If we're talking about teaching faith as a confession, that belongs in a house of worship, not a classroom. In public schools, we should be looking at something more like "religious studies"—basically just an overview of how different faiths function within American society.

I just picked up on a pretty wild detail, though I don't know if it's happening everywhere or just in my neck of the woods. During Advent, the religious ed teacher is insisting that the kids attend f**king early morning mass from 6:00 to 7:00 AM. Every single day, weekends included. 😵

Basically, this means during the week, kids are wandering around town freezing their butts off between 7:00 and 8:00 AM waiting for school to actually open. Since a ton of them commute, they don't even have the option to head home between church and class.

Jesse Cook4 said:I just picked up on a pretty wild detail, though I don't know if it's happening everywhere or just in my neck of the woods. During Advent, the religious ed teacher is insisting that the kids attend f**king early morning mass from 6:00 to 7:00 AM. Every single day, weekends included. 😵

Basically, this means during the week, kids are wandering around town freezing their butts off between 7:00 and 8:00 AM waiting for school to actually open. Since a ton of them commute, they don't even have the option to head home between church and class.

Our school actually opens at 7:00 AM, and I’m pretty sure the janitor is already there by 6:00.
Most schools in cities like Chicago or NYC work the same way.
If they can make it to an early service at 6:00, why can't religious studies just be held at 7:15? Or maybe just as a "zero period" class?

Jesse Cook4 said:I just picked up on a pretty wild detail, though I don't know if it's happening everywhere or just in my neck of the woods. During Advent, the religious ed teacher is insisting that the kids attend f**king early morning mass from 6:00 to 7:00 AM. Every single day, weekends included. 😵

Basically, this means during the week, kids are wandering around town freezing their butts off between 7:00 and 8:00 AM waiting for school to actually open. Since a ton of them commute, they don't even have the option to head home between church and class.

They can't mandate it, only encourage it.
If you're going to make claims like this, you should at least mention which city or school we're talking about so the info can be passed up to the Archdiocese.
Besides, those early services are actually great; my kids love them, and the church is always packed.

Exactly. This should be made public and sent straight to the Archbishop as a prime example of how to encourage people to actually fulfill their duties. 👏 My colleagues who attend these sessions tell me they're wonderful, and anyone taking religious studies really ought to go. It’s during Lent too, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely—this great tradition deserves respect. And not just from the kids, parents should step up too! 👏
They should also send a formal request during this period to move religious classes to zero hour. That way, we don't have poor kids freezing in the cold... or heaven forbid, just loitering around school (if they even open at 7 AM, according to the rhinoceros).

Great suggestion!! 👍

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Jessica Kelly4 said:They can't mandate it, only encourage it.
If you're going to make claims like this, you should at least mention which city or school we're talking about so the info can be passed up to the Archdiocese.
Besides, those early services are actually great; my kids love them, and the church is always packed.

"Nudging" by implying that if you skip the Vigil, you don't get your sacraments. 🙂

Columbus.

And wouldn't it be just lovely if public schools also mandated classes from 4:00 to 5:00 AM? That way, kids have to wake up even earlier and just huddle outside in the freezing cold for an hour waiting for the Vigil. Truly phenomenal. I’m sure nobody would ever call that child abuse.

Jesse Cook4 said:"Nudging" by implying that if you skip the Vigil, you don't get your sacraments. 🙂

Columbus.

And wouldn't it be just lovely if public schools also mandated classes from 4:00 to 5:00 AM? That way, kids have to wake up even earlier and just huddle outside in the freezing cold for an hour waiting for the Vigil. Truly phenomenal. I’m sure nobody would ever call that child abuse.

Sarcasm isn't your thing. It’s a great experience, just like midnight Mass.
Actually, the kids are the ones forcing me to get up early; I might have to call a taxi! 😁

I don't support coercion or indoctrination, obviously. Freedom is the bedrock of faith.
Making religious education a prerequisite for a sacrament is fine, but anything beyond that is overstepping.

I agree that the approach is wrong. You shouldn't force people... but wouldn't a true Christian want to attend Advent vigils? Why wouldn't they?
Wikipedia says the Advent vigil symbolizes a Christian's alertness during the Christmas season and Jesus's second coming. Christians strive to watch over their own lives and the lives of others so they don't lose eternal life. 🤔
It goes on to say these are simply the most FAVORITE masses (except maybe in Columbus) which hold penitential significance and represent a four-week period of continuous sleep deprivation. The Advent vigil calls us to honor the baby Jesus born in the manger and to witness God's wonderful works...

Every Christian should feel honored by this, rather than feeling pressured to show up for vigils.
And Jessica Kelly4 says their church is packed with both kids and adults.
I have no clue what it's like where I live; I'm not a believer. But it's weird to me that some people are counting down the days until the vigils while others are complaining...
Is it because some are mostly Christian and others are just a minority? Some go out of faith, while others just go for the grades or so their kid doesn't have free time?!?!

That's just wrong... 😱

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Brenda Doyle5 said:I agree that the approach is wrong. You shouldn't force people... but wouldn't a true Christian want to attend Advent vigils? Why wouldn't they?
Wikipedia says the Advent vigil symbolizes a Christian's alertness during the Christmas season and Jesus's second coming. Christians strive to watch over their own lives and the lives of others so they don't lose eternal life. 🤔
It goes on to say these are simply the most FAVORITE masses (except maybe in Columbus) which hold penitential significance and represent a four-week period of continuous sleep deprivation. The Advent vigil calls us to honor the baby Jesus born in the manger and to witness God's wonderful works...

Every Christian should feel honored by this, rather than feeling pressured to show up for vigils.
And Jessica Kelly4 says their church is packed with both kids and adults.
I have no clue what it's like where I live; I'm not a believer. But it's weird to me that some people are counting down the days until the vigils while others are complaining...
Is it because some are mostly Christian and others are just a minority? Some go out of faith, while others just go for the grades or so their kid doesn't have free time?!?!

That's just wrong... 😱

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Why would that be weird? People are different. Nothing is black and white, including religion.

Brenda Doyle5 said:Exactly. This should be made public and sent straight to the Archbishop as a prime example of how to encourage people to actually fulfill their duties. 👏 My colleagues who attend these sessions tell me they're wonderful, and anyone taking religious studies really ought to go. It’s during Lent too, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely—this great tradition deserves respect. And not just from the kids, parents should step up too! 👏
They should also send a formal request during this period to move religious classes to zero hour. That way, we don't have poor kids freezing in the cold... or heaven forbid, just loitering around school (if they even open at 7 AM, according to the rhinoceros).

Great suggestion!! 👍

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There are no First Communions during Lent.
Sure, there might be early masses, but they aren't the same thing.

I'm with you! Kids and parents together 🙂

Brenda Doyle5 said:I agree that the approach is wrong. You shouldn't force people... but wouldn't a true Christian want to attend Advent vigils? Why wouldn't they?
Wikipedia says the Advent vigil symbolizes a Christian's alertness during the Christmas season and Jesus's second coming. Christians strive to watch over their own lives and the lives of others so they don't lose eternal life. 🤔
It goes on to say these are simply the most FAVORITE masses (except maybe in Columbus) which hold penitential significance and represent a four-week period of continuous sleep deprivation. The Advent vigil calls us to honor the baby Jesus born in the manger and to witness God's wonderful works...

Every Christian should feel honored by this, rather than feeling pressured to show up for vigils.
And Jessica Kelly4 says their church is packed with both kids and adults.
I have no clue what it's like where I live; I'm not a believer. But it's weird to me that some people are counting down the days until the vigils while others are complaining...
Is it because some are mostly Christian and others are just a minority? Some go out of faith, while others just go for the grades or so their kid doesn't have free time?!?!

That's just wrong... 😱

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Absolutely. And this isn't just about Easter services; a true Christian should want to take every opportunity to attend Mass if they truly believe. If they really love God, shouldn't they? 😁

What role can the school system actually play in this? Nothing, I suspect. The government pays the instructors, provides the facilities, and covers the working conditions... Yet the Church acts much like the NFL, encroaching on state sovereignty. Isn't that ironic?

Brenda Doyle5 said:I agree that the approach is wrong. You shouldn't force people... but wouldn't a true Christian want to attend Advent vigils? Why wouldn't they?
Wikipedia says the Advent vigil symbolizes a Christian's alertness during the Christmas season and Jesus's second coming. Christians strive to watch over their own lives and the lives of others so they don't lose eternal life. 🤔
It goes on to say these are simply the most FAVORITE masses (except maybe in Columbus) which hold penitential significance and represent a four-week period of continuous sleep deprivation. The Advent vigil calls us to honor the baby Jesus born in the manger and to witness God's wonderful works...

Every Christian should feel honored by this, rather than feeling pressured to show up for vigils.
And Jessica Kelly4 says their church is packed with both kids and adults.
I have no clue what it's like where I live; I'm not a believer. But it's weird to me that some people are counting down the days until the vigils while others are complaining...
Is it because some are mostly Christian and others are just a minority? Some go out of faith, while others just go for the grades or so their kid doesn't have free time?!?!

That's just wrong... 😱

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What, are we going to count everyone at dawn Mass just to calculate the official percentage of Catholics in the US?😉

Anyway, speaking of Columbus, it turns out the actual requirement isn't attending every single service during Adventure, but at least two.

So, maybe people wouldn't complain so much if a school scheduled an obligation for kids at 6:00 AM just once.

Sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Are you implying there's some kind of fake solidarity among the kids here?

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Brenda Doyle5 said:Sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Are you implying there's some kind of fake solidarity among the kids here?

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No, it’s more that the people currently fine with forcing kids to be up at 5 AM—since they have that 6-7 AM obligation (and an even earlier start in the winter)—would suddenly realize that doing that is actually just child abuse.🙂

Early morning services are hands down the most beautiful masses and the most incredible experience a child can have when it comes to their spiritual life.

Back in my day, the masses were held in a way where kids were treated with genuine respect—they were actually the foundation and the whole point of it all. I used to attend them even in years when I hadn't even taken my sacraments yet.

Nobody ever made anything conditional on me receiving my sacraments, but once they started, that kind of pressure became the first turning point in how this whole institution began to shift. As a First Communicant, I still held onto my faith, and by the time I was a Confirmation student, the whole thing felt ridiculous to me because my connection to faith and attending mass was always based on my own choice and the pure joy that this way of life brought me.

I went to an early service again recently, after a long stretch of years where I just felt this heavy sense of falling short during the Adventure season, and honestly, I was so disappointed by the sermon and the way they approach the congregation, especially the children. To me, that isn't delivering the Good News; it’s not celebrating a holiday that is, above all else, meant for children, by children, and for children. It feels more like political propaganda and ideological garbage in a desperate attempt to mold a cult-like community of mindless followers.

Now, I’d much rather head out for a walk at 6:00 AM in the biting cold. I get that same feeling I used to have—that internal warmth from the joyful anticipation, even while the darkness and the chill sting my face.

Kids who are raised with faith through religious education shouldn't need some sort of "participation trophy" system or a checklist to actually feel joy. They should be taught that anticipating a holiday means looking forward to hope for a better world, just as the One we celebrate intended. We need a world of rebellious kids who push back against rigid systems; a world of mischievous little ones who run away from their parents just to go challenge the adults in the temple; a world of questioning and refusing to blindly accept Pharisaical distortions; a world of tearing down temples and living by the commandment of love.

No amount of words can truly describe how full your heart can feel after a mass like that.

silentraven6 said:Early morning services are hands down the most beautiful masses and the most incredible experience a child can have when it comes to their spiritual life.

Back in my day, the masses were held in a way where kids were treated with genuine respect—they were actually the foundation and the whole point of it all. I used to attend them even in years when I hadn't even taken my sacraments yet.

Nobody ever made anything conditional on me receiving my sacraments, but once they started, that kind of pressure became the first turning point in how this whole institution began to shift. As a First Communicant, I still held onto my faith, and by the time I was a Confirmation student, the whole thing felt ridiculous to me because my connection to faith and attending mass was always based on my own choice and the pure joy that this way of life brought me.

I went to an early service again recently, after a long stretch of years where I just felt this heavy sense of falling short during the Adventure season, and honestly, I was so disappointed by the sermon and the way they approach the congregation, especially the children. To me, that isn't delivering the Good News; it’s not celebrating a holiday that is, above all else, meant for children, by children, and for children. It feels more like political propaganda and ideological garbage in a desperate attempt to mold a cult-like community of mindless followers.

Now, I’d much rather head out for a walk at 6:00 AM in the biting cold. I get that same feeling I used to have—that internal warmth from the joyful anticipation, even while the darkness and the chill sting my face.

Kids who are raised with faith through religious education shouldn't need some sort of "participation trophy" system or a checklist to actually feel joy. They should be taught that anticipating a holiday means looking forward to hope for a better world, just as the One we celebrate intended. We need a world of rebellious kids who push back against rigid systems; a world of mischievous little ones who run away from their parents just to go challenge the adults in the temple; a world of questioning and refusing to blindly accept Pharisaical distortions; a world of tearing down temples and living by the commandment of love.

No amount of words can truly describe how full your heart can feel after a mass like that.

Well put. I agree with most of what you're saying.
The only difference is that I've actually found certain priests and small groups within the church who operate exactly how they should. It’s not even a huge circle, but you still have to hunt for them. 🙂
I think these exact issues are at the heart of the Synod happening this year—the relationship between parish life and religious education in schools, getting more laypeople involved... I just hope things move in the right direction.