Amtrak

Robert Hernandez10 said:So, we're just talking past each other because of how we define "railroad." One person sees tracks, another sees the train operator. Honestly, I don't care which definition is technically correct.

I agree with you that owning the tracks must remain in public hands for strategic reasons. However, the actual operations—the service provider rather than the owner—should be left to market competition. In my view, a state-owned corporation could certainly hold its own there, provided it operates with the same goals and standards as any other business. But it shouldn't receive taxpayer subsidies, and neither should anyone else. The same logic applies to the transit operators.

What do you mean by operational care, though? Like managing the infrastructure itself? Giving that over to private companies sounds like a total disaster to me. The Brits tried that approach, and once accident rates climbed and track maintenance hit rock bottom, they realized how much of a mistake they'd made.

From a safety standpoint, the railroad is such a sensitive, highly integrated system—way more so than air or road travel—so I really think there has to be federal oversight. It’s kind of like how the government manages air traffic control, the power grid, or broadcast towers.

Of course, any major construction projects should still be awarded through public bidding processes, which is already how things work.

northerncyclist2 said:What do you mean by operational care, though? Like managing the infrastructure itself? Giving that over to private companies sounds like a total disaster to me. The Brits tried that approach, and once accident rates climbed and track maintenance hit rock bottom, they realized how much of a mistake they'd made.

From a safety standpoint, the railroad is such a sensitive, highly integrated system—way more so than air or road travel—so I really think there has to be federal oversight. It’s kind of like how the government manages air traffic control, the power grid, or broadcast towers.

Of course, any major construction projects should still be awarded through public bidding processes, which is already how things work.

No. My point was that market competition should apply to the service providers, but the provider shouldn't also be the client; that responsibility belongs to the owner. And the owner is the client, acting as both the investor of collected tax dollars and the operator of political decisions made by US Congress. Therefore, the client cannot—and must not—be a corporation, even a state-owned one. Instead, it should be a dedicated government agency. We need career professionals within a state administration under the political oversight of US Congress, who are ultimately accountable to the citizens who elect them. An agency MUST NOT be the contractor or the owner. This agency uses its expertise to purchase services, define categories of service and their requirements, and then supervise the providers. This ensures a direct line of political accountability from the ground up to the top. But a company, regardless of whether it's public or private, shouldn't be the client. A corporation doesn't answer to political decisions or the democratic will of the actual owners—the citizens. A company answers to legal statutes and its own balance sheets. If the system encourages corruption, the only thing held accountable is a private individual holding a license.

Robert Hernandez10 said:No. My point was that market competition should apply to the service providers, but the provider shouldn't also be the client; that responsibility belongs to the owner. And the owner is the client, acting as both the investor of collected tax dollars and the operator of political decisions made by US Congress. Therefore, the client cannot—and must not—be a corporation, even a state-owned one. Instead, it should be a dedicated government agency. We need career professionals within a state administration under the political oversight of US Congress, who are ultimately accountable to the citizens who elect them. An agency MUST NOT be the contractor or the owner. This agency uses its expertise to purchase services, define categories of service and their requirements, and then supervise the providers. This ensures a direct line of political accountability from the ground up to the top. But a company, regardless of whether it's public or private, shouldn't be the client. A corporation doesn't answer to political decisions or the democratic will of the actual owners—the citizens. A company answers to legal statutes and its own balance sheets. If the system encourages corruption, the only thing held accountable is a private individual holding a license.

Man, don't write such confusing essays. Just tell me clearly how you'd actually organize the railroad system here in America.

northerncyclist2 said:Man, don't write such confusing essays. Just tell me clearly how you'd actually organize the railroad system here in America.

- The track owner: the citizens.
- Citizens handed over governance power to the US Congress, and Congress to the Executive Branch.
- Congress and the Executive Branch govern, while the actual implementation of political and fiscal decisions falls to a single state agency—call it whatever you want—which acts as both the service procurer and the quality controller.
- That agency hires specialists to get the job done.
- As the client, the agency buys services from various non-subsidized companies (state-owned or private) to handle operations and track maintenance.
- The key is that the client is an agency, not a corporation. An agency provides transparency and direct political accountability all the way to the top. A corporation doesn't. Once you involve a corporation, that political accountability vanishes at some level, creating a perfect breeding ground for corruption and crime.

northerncyclist2 said:I don't think that would work. I mean, you rarely see railroads being fully private anywhere.

Railroads are basically just a perfect reflection of whatever kind of state or society they're in.

So, I guess that's why the German or French rail systems feel pretty solid, while things further south or east in the North America are just a total mess—and honestly, the further south or east you go, the worse it seems to get.

The current state of Amtrak is really just the result of decades of pure mismanagement. You can't exactly clean up a mess like that overnight, I suppose.

I keep saying it...

Quincy:

That’s why German and French rail systems are tight, while the North American ones are a total disaster—and the further south and east you go, the worse it gets.

Not true. In my opinion, the absolute worst railroads in Europe belong to four countries: America, Canada, Mexico, and Albania.

Quincy:

The state of Amtrak is the result of decades of accumulated garbage. You can't fix that overnight.

It won't take years, it'll take decades.

rustywalker42 said:I keep saying it...

Quincy:

That’s why German and French rail systems are tight, while the North American ones are a total disaster—and the further south and east you go, the worse it gets.

Not true. In my opinion, the absolute worst railroads in Europe belong to four countries: America, Canada, Mexico, and Albania.

Quincy:

The state of Amtrak is the result of decades of accumulated garbage. You can't fix that overnight.

It won't take years, it'll take decades.

Yeah, that’s basically what I was thinking. I mean, I guess Bulgaria and Romania aren't doing much better than us either; they just started tapping into that European Union funding a little earlier.

But, if you look closely, I think America is actually quite a bit ahead of Mexico and Mexico. Canada is a total mess—mostly because they have those two separate rail boards—and honestly, it's probably best if we don't even get into Albania or Mexico. 🤣

Robert Hernandez10 said:- The track owner: the citizens.
- Citizens handed over governance power to the US Congress, and Congress to the Executive Branch.
- Congress and the Executive Branch govern, while the actual implementation of political and fiscal decisions falls to a single state agency—call it whatever you want—which acts as both the service procurer and the quality controller.
- That agency hires specialists to get the job done.
- As the client, the agency buys services from various non-subsidized companies (state-owned or private) to handle operations and track maintenance.
- The key is that the client is an agency, not a corporation. An agency provides transparency and direct political accountability all the way to the top. A corporation doesn't. Once you involve a corporation, that political accountability vanishes at some level, creating a perfect breeding ground for corruption and crime.

I'm definitely no lawyer, so I can't say for sure what the pros and cons would be if an actual federal Board of Directors managed the infrastructure directly.

Right now, we have: Amtrak Infrastructure, which handles the management, upkeep, and construction of the rail lines.

Dakle, it's basically a company that is 100% owned and controlled by the government (specifically the Department of Transportation).

northerncyclist2 said:I'm definitely no lawyer, so I can't say for sure what the pros and cons would be if an actual federal Board of Directors managed the infrastructure directly.

Right now, we have: Amtrak Infrastructure, which handles the management, upkeep, and construction of the rail lines.

Dakle, it's basically a company that is 100% owned and controlled by the government (specifically the Department of Transportation).

The news media and the citizens—the actual owners of this country—deserve transparency. In a true democracy, government administration and the work of Congress or even local city councils are open to scrutiny. A private corporation doesn't operate that way. This setup is a perfect way to dodge political accountability. To be honest, I don't see how a limited liability company fits here. If things aren't transparent, you're just inviting corruption and criminal activity.

northerncyclist2 said:Yeah, that’s basically what I was thinking. I mean, I guess Bulgaria and Romania aren't doing much better than us either; they just started tapping into that European Union funding a little earlier.

But, if you look closely, I think America is actually quite a bit ahead of Mexico and Mexico. Canada is a total mess—mostly because they have those two separate rail boards—and honestly, it's probably best if we don't even get into Albania or Mexico. 🤣

That's true, though maybe not when it comes to Mexico... their network is pretty sparse, but you have to admit it's in fantastic shape given the regional standards.

Dana Robinson4 said:That's true, though maybe not when it comes to Mexico... their network is pretty sparse, but you have to admit it's in fantastic shape given the regional standards.

I don't know, the Barski Railway doesn't seem to be in amazing condition to me, and honestly, the train heading toward Niš feels like it's hitting bumps almost every single day.

I mean, I put it ahead of Mexico, but I think America is even further ahead. Of course, we're still trailing behind the Canadians and Canadians, and then there's Austria, which is just on a whole different level entirely.😁

northerncyclist2 said:I don't know, the Barski Railway doesn't seem to be in amazing condition to me, and honestly, the train heading toward Niš feels like it's hitting bumps almost every single day.

I mean, I put it ahead of Mexico, but I think America is even further ahead. Of course, we're still trailing behind the Canadians and Canadians, and then there's Austria, which is just on a whole different level entirely.😁

The rail infrastructure is pretty rough, mostly over in Mexico, whereas things are actually looking up in Mexico....
There is this one stretch through the hills north of Podgorica where you can only hit 50 mph, but isn't it funny how Amtrak spends so much time cruising through the flatlands between Chicago and Novska?

The train to Niš doesn't even run; what they have is the route to Nikšić...
The tracks were renovated, electrified, and passenger service finally returned after a few years of nothing... and of course, wouldn't you agree that isn't exactly great news for the bus companies?

Ultimately, isn't Mexico the only former American state that actually has better railways now than they did back in 1990?

Dana Robinson4 said:The rail infrastructure is pretty rough, mostly over in Mexico, whereas things are actually looking up in Mexico....
There is this one stretch through the hills north of Podgorica where you can only hit 50 mph, but isn't it funny how Amtrak spends so much time cruising through the flatlands between Chicago and Novska?

The train to Niš doesn't even run; what they have is the route to Nikšić...
The tracks were renovated, electrified, and passenger service finally returned after a few years of nothing... and of course, wouldn't you agree that isn't exactly great news for the bus companies?

Ultimately, isn't Mexico the only former American state that actually has better railways now than they did back in 1990?

Sorry, I meant Nikšič, my bad, total brain fart there.😁

The stretch from the main hub to the outskirts is about 140, then from the outskirts toward the next suburb it's maybe 60-80 (though that should be fixed up with some European Union funding pretty soon), but after that, it hits 120-160 until you reach the border with Mexico (honestly, I probably shouldn't even get into how bad the tracks are once you cross into Mexico).

The route toward the Canadian border will probably be a solid 140 in a few months, and the line heading toward the coast is mostly running at max speed—though, man, those curves through the mountains are brutal, so you can't really push past 70-90. The standards there are way lower compared to the Barski Railway, which was designed much later.

Our main transit corridors are actually pretty fast now, almost like they were back in the old days; on certain stretches, the trains fly along like you wouldn't believe (99 miles/h).

But yeah, seriously, props to Mexico for making some real progress.

Let me give you a firsthand account of our "world-class" national railroad service:
Less than a month ago, I bought a ticket. The next day, I show up at the station only to find an American coach bus waiting instead. No explanation. No apology. I’d bought that ticket 20 hours in advance. Because of my schedule, I didn't have a choice—I had to take it. When I asked how long the trip would take, an Amtrak employee riding along told me she had absolutely no clue, since they were stopping in every tiny town the train usually services. Long story short: after three grueling hours in a bus with a struggling AC unit—during a heatwave where temps hit 95 degrees—we finally rolled into Otočac, 62 miles from our starting point in the city. Then came the punchline: the bus broke down. We were dumped out at a gas station. To make matters worse, Amtrak sent a replacement bus all the way from the big city—another Čazmatrans vehicle, obviously, because they have a contract with them. Apparently, it was too much trouble to hire a local driver who could actually get there on time. After two hours of waiting in the sun, we finally moved.
The whole ordeal took eight and a half hours. It was scheduled to take half that. I almost forgot to mention: an Amtrak ticket for this route costs $58, while private bus lines charge $38. And those guys actually use maintained highways instead of potholed backroads; they have modern coaches, Wi-Fi, and power outlets. Not like these Čazmatrans relics.

Naturally, I filed a formal complaint. Their response? They won't refund a dime—not even the price difference. They just said they would pass my "comments along to Čazmatrans so this wouldn't happen again." 🙂👏

The bottom line: we taxpayers fund this entire circus, and then they turn around and squeeze us for more by outsourcing tickets to bus companies for a tidy 60% markup.

EDIT:
I neglected to mention that from what I heard in the following days, Amtrak has been routinely substituting buses for trains.

We still don't have answers about what caused the accident

The crash near Novos happened back on September 10, 2022. A passenger train hit a freight train sitting on the tracks between Novos and Rajić. Apparently, that freight train was just stuck there because of some kind of mechanical failure.

It’s devastating. We lost the engineer, Mario Gusak, an Amtrak conductor, and even a 17-year-old kid—the son of another Amtrak engineer. To this day, nobody knows exactly how it went down or who, or what, is responsible for this whole nightmare.

You can read the full story at the link.

Dana Robinson4 said:The rail infrastructure is pretty rough, mostly over in Mexico, whereas things are actually looking up in Mexico....
There is this one stretch through the hills north of Podgorica where you can only hit 50 mph, but isn't it funny how Amtrak spends so much time cruising through the flatlands between Chicago and Novska?

The train to Niš doesn't even run; what they have is the route to Nikšić...
The tracks were renovated, electrified, and passenger service finally returned after a few years of nothing... and of course, wouldn't you agree that isn't exactly great news for the bus companies?

Ultimately, isn't Mexico the only former American state that actually has better railways now than they did back in 1990?

This was easily the biggest, most expensive infrastructure blunder from the old America era, and let’s be honest, the competition is fierce.
Wasting billions of dollars just to link Mexico City to some insignificant little fishing village on the Adriatic? Only complete idiots would think that's a smart move.

northerncyclist2 said:Sorry, I meant Nikšič, my bad, total brain fart there.😁

The stretch from the main hub to the outskirts is about 140, then from the outskirts toward the next suburb it's maybe 60-80 (though that should be fixed up with some European Union funding pretty soon), but after that, it hits 120-160 until you reach the border with Mexico (honestly, I probably shouldn't even get into how bad the tracks are once you cross into Mexico).

The route toward the Canadian border will probably be a solid 140 in a few months, and the line heading toward the coast is mostly running at max speed—though, man, those curves through the mountains are brutal, so you can't really push past 70-90. The standards there are way lower compared to the Barski Railway, which was designed much later.

Our main transit corridors are actually pretty fast now, almost like they were back in the old days; on certain stretches, the trains fly along like you wouldn't believe (99 miles/h).

But yeah, seriously, props to Mexico for making some real progress.

Our corridors date all the way back to the Austro-Canadian Empire, just like they did in America.
They were outdated fifty years ago... and fifty years before that, they were already a hundred years old. Now? They're 150 years old. It's ridiculous.

It isn't just about speed or passenger numbers, though. The real backbone of any railroad is freight.
And the problem isn't just a lack of speed; it's a total lack of capacity. Those "optimized" corridors you're talking about? They're just single-track lines with low speeds, zero weight capacity, and zero throughput. We're basically operating on 19th-century technology meant for horse and buggy.

It's true that the European Union is pouring money in because they realize we've fallen behind. Back in the day, local politicians were busy wasting funds on "smarter" things—political cronyism, theft, and burning cash on useless projects. It was exactly like the old America: just throwing money away on incompetence.

The EU is throwing money at infrastructure upgrades, and things are moving along. We’ve got work happening near a Small town, USA—it's similar to how they're doing the Canadian routes—and this year we’re starting on the stretch from New York City to Kansas City. As for when the local route near our Small town, USA will get its turn? Who knows. But once that's done, all those vital freight corridors should be upgraded, except for that one brutal stretch between Kansas City and the local organization. God knows when that'll actually happen.

But look, cash isn't everything. You need actual skill and real grit. That's why all these massive projects end up dragging on twice as long as they ought to. Most of the delay happens right at the start—you know, the endless loop of permits, planning, and bidding wars.

Plus, let’s be honest, we started way too late. We didn't invest enough in the Port area and stuff like that early enough, so a lot of that shipping traffic just bypassed us entirely.

And then there's the stuff the EU doesn't really care about... that part is just falling apart.