Nosy banks

rowdypilot19 said:Well, obviously you haven't either. 🍿

I mean, my take on this... I guess the future is just going to be Apple Pay, though honestly, it feels like it's already here, even if we're talking about all different kinds of currencies.

So, like, some kind of digital wallet that maybe just reacts to a fingerprint or an iris scan to activate, and it probably won't even be constantly linked to the banks at every single second.

What do you mean by "all currencies"? You just buy whatever currency you need when the time comes.

rowdypilot19 said:Well, obviously you haven't either. 🍿

I mean, my take on this... I guess the future is just going to be Apple Pay, though honestly, it feels like it's already here, even if we're talking about all different kinds of currencies.

So, like, some kind of digital wallet that maybe just reacts to a fingerprint or an iris scan to activate, and it probably won't even be constantly linked to the banks at every single second.

Actually, I have. I saw someone get locked out there for the first time just because they tried to pay with cash 😁.

I'm guessing you're probably not much of an Abba fan, right? 😉

http://www.abbathemuseum.com/se/cashless

I honestly think the future is all about Apple Wallet, though it feels like it's already here for most currencies.

So, maybe some kind of electronic wallet that just works with a fingerprint or eye scan, and isn't even constantly linked to the banks.

I don't know if you've ever been to China, but WhatsApp is huge and super easy there (among other things). I haven't seen mobile payments used that much on regular streets anywhere else.

Personally, it's a bummer that restaurants in New York City don't take PayPal or something similar. I get that small shop owners don't always want to deal with credit card fees, I really do. But then you get a tourist from Iceland passing through, they don't have any kuna, and they just want a postcard or a snack. We have the tech where you could just give them an email address to pay instantly—it's on every phone—and it would make life easier for everyone, but I guess between the registers and the laws... we might be waiting a while.

Nathan Morris3 said:Actually, I have. I saw someone get locked out there for the first time just because they tried to pay with cash 😁.

I'm guessing you're probably not much of an Abba fan, right? 😉

http://www.abbathemuseum.com/se/cashless

I honestly think the future is all about Apple Wallet, though it feels like it's already here for most currencies.

So, maybe some kind of electronic wallet that just works with a fingerprint or eye scan, and isn't even constantly linked to the banks.

I don't know if you've ever been to China, but WhatsApp is huge and super easy there (among other things). I haven't seen mobile payments used that much on regular streets anywhere else.

Personally, it's a bummer that restaurants in New York City don't take PayPal or something similar. I get that small shop owners don't always want to deal with credit card fees, I really do. But then you get a tourist from Iceland passing through, they don't have any kuna, and they just want a postcard or a snack. We have the tech where you could just give them an email address to pay instantly—it's on every phone—and it would make life easier for everyone, but I guess between the registers and the laws... we might be waiting a while.

Why bother overcomplicating things with PayPal when you can just swipe a card? Well, you could if the big banks didn't want to take a cut. Why is it that you crypto enthusiasts always feel the need to make simple things complicated? 😁

Charles Ramos7 said:Why bother overcomplicating things with PayPal when you can just swipe a card? Well, you could if the big banks didn't want to take a cut. Why is it that you crypto enthusiasts always feel the need to make simple things complicated? 😁

Well, I guess it's because anyone can have PayPal on their phone without needing contracts, special hardware, or worrying about data theft and fraud... any street vendor can use PayPal, just like how pretty much every street vendor in China uses WhatsApp or something similar.

And maybe you're mixing up cryptocurrencies with payment methods. I'm talking about PayPal being a way to pay, not really discussing crypto itself.

Nathan Morris3 said:Well, I guess it's because anyone can have PayPal on their phone without needing contracts, special hardware, or worrying about data theft and fraud... any street vendor can use PayPal, just like how pretty much every street vendor in China uses WhatsApp or something similar.

And maybe you're mixing up cryptocurrencies with payment methods. I'm talking about PayPal being a way to pay, not really discussing crypto itself.

What do you mean by "anyone" can use PayPal? You still need a card to fund the account—meaning you could just pay with cash if you're out of luck, even without PayPal.

Charles Ramos7 said:What do you mean by "anyone" can use PayPal? You still need a card to fund the account—meaning you could just pay with cash if you're out of luck, even without PayPal.

I think I only mentioned PayPal as an example, maybe. As far as I know, you don't even strictly need a credit card; you could just link a bank account or load money directly onto the PayPal balance. Personally, I use a Prepaid card, which I suppose anyone could get regardless of their situation. But I was really talking about receiving payments, not sending them. Even now, technology exists where a tourist can just walk up to a local newsstand, grab some tissues, and pay contactless. Requiring credit cards seems like overkill, since then a small street vendor would have to sign all these contracts with major banks, and I'd imagine the risk is higher too.

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Nathan Morris3 said:I think I only mentioned PayPal as an example, maybe. As far as I know, you don't even strictly need a credit card; you could just link a bank account or load money directly onto the PayPal balance. Personally, I use a Prepaid card, which I suppose anyone could get regardless of their situation. But I was really talking about receiving payments, not sending them. Even now, technology exists where a tourist can just walk up to a local newsstand, grab some tissues, and pay contactless. Requiring credit cards seems like overkill, since then a small street vendor would have to sign all these contracts with major banks, and I'd imagine the risk is higher too.

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Since I actually own a small convenience store, let me tell you—if you let someone buy a newspaper with a credit card... you might actually end up losing money on the sale after the fees kick in. 👏

Nathan Morris3 said:I think I only mentioned PayPal as an example, maybe. As far as I know, you don't even strictly need a credit card; you could just link a bank account or load money directly onto the PayPal balance. Personally, I use a Prepaid card, which I suppose anyone could get regardless of their situation. But I was really talking about receiving payments, not sending them. Even now, technology exists where a tourist can just walk up to a local newsstand, grab some tissues, and pay contactless. Requiring credit cards seems like overkill, since then a small street vendor would have to sign all these contracts with major banks, and I'd imagine the risk is higher too.

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If I’m following you correctly—you went from mentioning China to talking about people on the street—you're focusing on peer-to-peer payments. You've got a point there, but things work differently for businesses.
A business has to sign an agreement with a merchant processor, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a bank. If they want to use PayPal, they’d have to set up a Square account. I’m not sure exactly how the setup works, but it still involves some kind of formal contract.

Charles Ramos7 said:If I’m following you correctly—you went from mentioning China to talking about people on the street—you're focusing on peer-to-peer payments. You've got a point there, but things work differently for businesses.
A business has to sign an agreement with a merchant processor, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a bank. If they want to use PayPal, they’d have to set up a Square account. I’m not sure exactly how the setup works, but it still involves some kind of formal contract.

Let's not get confused. I'm talking about both China and beggars, but forget about PayPal (I just used them as an example, but even they aren't exactly cheap); I mean how in China you can land in a huge town and grab street food from a vendor—and just pay with something like WhatsApp or similar. So, yeah, forget about credit, currency exchange, contracts, personal info, credit scores, bills, heavy fees, or coins... I actually had this situation where a tourist from Denmark was passing through Washington, D.C. for a few hours during a layover and wanted to grab a bite, but the restaurant wouldn't serve him because the Dane didn't have any Dollars to pay with. So, I stepped in and told the Dane, "Hey, let me get this," then I paid, got his email, and he sent me the money instantly via PayPal. I know we can't compare fiscal regulations in China to those in America, but I guess I'm just noticing that what we have right now feels pretty outdated, and that includes credit cards too. In China, they charge maybe 0.1-0.2%, so, I don't know, does anyone remember how much those card companies charge us? Not to mention all that nonsense with the contracts.

Nathan Morris3 said:Let's not get confused. I'm talking about both China and beggars, but forget about PayPal (I just used them as an example, but even they aren't exactly cheap); I mean how in China you can land in a huge town and grab street food from a vendor—and just pay with something like WhatsApp or similar. So, yeah, forget about credit, currency exchange, contracts, personal info, credit scores, bills, heavy fees, or coins... I actually had this situation where a tourist from Denmark was passing through Washington, D.C. for a few hours during a layover and wanted to grab a bite, but the restaurant wouldn't serve him because the Dane didn't have any Dollars to pay with. So, I stepped in and told the Dane, "Hey, let me get this," then I paid, got his email, and he sent me the money instantly via PayPal. I know we can't compare fiscal regulations in China to those in America, but I guess I'm just noticing that what we have right now feels pretty outdated, and that includes credit cards too. In China, they charge maybe 0.1-0.2%, so, I don't know, does anyone remember how much those card companies charge us? Not to mention all that nonsense with the contracts.

I completely agree, and that applies not just to China but to Somalia and parts of Africa too. But those are essentially peer-to-peer payments between individuals. As for why things seem "outdated" over there (like in Africa), it’s simply because their banking systems aren't fully developed, so they use these methods out of necessity
.
If you're measuring progress by comparing developing nations to the West, then the developed world is actually quite "outdated" since we're buried under a mountain of regulations and laws.

Charles Ramos7 said:I completely agree, and that applies not just to China but to Somalia and parts of Africa too. But those are essentially peer-to-peer payments between individuals. As for why things seem "outdated" over there (like in Africa), it’s simply because their banking systems aren't fully developed, so they use these methods out of necessity
.
If you're measuring progress by comparing developing nations to the West, then the developed world is actually quite "outdated" since we're buried under a mountain of regulations and laws.

The big issue with credit cards is the fees. All those perks I mentioned for going cashless often get wiped out by the percentages taken as commission. And honestly, most people don't even need "credit," they just want to pay for a service.

Yeah, I did mention regulation and bureaucracy being hurdles, but everyone uses WhatsApp (as an example) — both shops and individuals. But if margins were lower, I bet mobile payments via something like NFC would catch on really fast. A POS system that handles tax receipts probably doesn't care how someone pays.

Technically, a merchant could just record everything as cash, if our legal system even had a term for "virtual register" or something like that.

Anyway, getting back to the point:

Do banks still collect all that data they aren't even supposed to? I wonder if anyone actually gets those surveys.

Nathan Morris3 said:The big issue with credit cards is the fees. All those perks I mentioned for going cashless often get wiped out by the percentages taken as commission. And honestly, most people don't even need "credit," they just want to pay for a service.

Yeah, I did mention regulation and bureaucracy being hurdles, but everyone uses WhatsApp (as an example) — both shops and individuals. But if margins were lower, I bet mobile payments via something like NFC would catch on really fast. A POS system that handles tax receipts probably doesn't care how someone pays.

Technically, a merchant could just record everything as cash, if our legal system even had a term for "virtual register" or something like that.

Fees are mostly an issue for the small mom-and-pop shops; bigger retailers don't sweat them nearly as much. ☕

Charles Ramos7 said:Fees are mostly an issue for the small mom-and-pop shops; bigger retailers don't sweat them nearly as much. ☕

I was mostly thinking about those smaller businesses—who probably make up most of the market anyway. I'm definitely no expert here, so maybe you could explain why the big chains aren't bothered by it? I mean, don't they still have to pay that 2-3% fee too? Or maybe it's just because they've gotten used to swallowing the cost, or perhaps they just pass it all onto the customer, so it doesn't really matter to them.

Retailers have already baked the credit card processing fees directly into the shelf prices of all their products. Essentially, they aren't losing money when you swipe a card; they just see a slightly healthier margin when customers pay with cash.

wiredlynx28 said:Retailers have already baked the credit card processing fees directly into the shelf prices of all their products. Essentially, they aren't losing money when you swipe a card; they just see a slightly healthier margin when customers pay with cash.

Yeah, I guess they just passed the cost onto us, the customers, so they don't really care. You might say I'm repeating myself, but I think we already touched on this whole cashless debate before, if I remember right. It still feels crazy that card transactions eat up 2-3%—especially since most people aren't even using credit. I was looking at Wikipedia for MASTERCARD : Revenue US $ 9.66 billion (2015) Operating income
US$ 5.07 billion. I honestly don't quite get how they calculate revenue (since not every transaction is their profit), but I don't see why everyone is so okay with funding their bottom line. Maybe the government could finally liberalize things and let some cheaper tech compete?

Nathan Morris3 said:Yeah, I guess they just passed the cost onto us, the customers, so they don't really care. You might say I'm repeating myself, but I think we already touched on this whole cashless debate before, if I remember right. It still feels crazy that card transactions eat up 2-3%—especially since most people aren't even using credit. I was looking at Wikipedia for MASTERCARD : Revenue US $ 9.66 billion (2015) Operating income
US$ 5.07 billion. I honestly don't quite get how they calculate revenue (since not every transaction is their profit), but I don't see why everyone is so okay with funding their bottom line. Maybe the government could finally liberalize things and let some cheaper tech compete?

I mean, nobody is stopping new technology from entering the fray. What I don't get is why you're so obsessed with these fees (it seems like the one thing crypto enthusiasts can actually agree on) when, as a buyer, you don't really benefit from lower processing costs. Sure, maybe you'd get a cash discount here and there, but at most places, the retail price stays exactly the same regardless.

The sales tax for US hospitality and tourism was slashed by nearly half (bringing its share of the retail price down to about 10%), so did you actually feel any relief in your wallet from that? We're talking about a potential 10% drop in retail prices, not just a measly 2-3%.

If you're a small business owner, I totally get fighting for lower overhead and better margins, but as a customer, none of this changes your life.

Charles Ramos7 said:I mean, nobody is stopping new technology from entering the fray. What I don't get is why you're so obsessed with these fees (it seems like the one thing crypto enthusiasts can actually agree on) when, as a buyer, you don't really benefit from lower processing costs. Sure, maybe you'd get a cash discount here and there, but at most places, the retail price stays exactly the same regardless.

The sales tax for US hospitality and tourism was slashed by nearly half (bringing its share of the retail price down to about 10%), so did you actually feel any relief in your wallet from that? We're talking about a potential 10% drop in retail prices, not just a measly 2-3%.

If you're a small business owner, I totally get fighting for lower overhead and better margins, but as a customer, none of this changes your life.

You keep bringing up crypto, but I'm not even talking about that. It's about the payment method, not the currency itself. I guess I was just saying you wouldn't see the benefits, so I laid it out. You have to realize that for a small shop owner—and there are tons of them—adding a service that takes a few percentage points is a huge deal, especially on items with thin margins. So, I don't really get why you don't see why the fee is such a hurdle. If that 2-3% fee were "gone," I think that savings would trickle down because instead of all that money going to New York, it would mostly stay local with the buyer, the merchant, or the distributor... maybe. To you it might not matter, but it matters to me. And if you think 3% is such a negligible amount that it's fine, then why not just raise the sales tax from 7% to 10%? It's all the same, right?

"Price elasticity" is what determines how much a price actually drops. Not everything reacts the same way, I guess.

Two or three percent is just too much. It's hard to regulate a cartel made up of a few players who are making billions of dollars. I doubt you'll convince me that market is truly free.
Debit cards are getting better though, they're cheaper, and things like NFC payments are pretty convenient.

Nathan Morris3 said:You keep bringing up crypto, but I'm not even talking about that. It's about the payment method, not the currency itself. I guess I was just saying you wouldn't see the benefits, so I laid it out. You have to realize that for a small shop owner—and there are tons of them—adding a service that takes a few percentage points is a huge deal, especially on items with thin margins. So, I don't really get why you don't see why the fee is such a hurdle. If that 2-3% fee were "gone," I think that savings would trickle down because instead of all that money going to New York, it would mostly stay local with the buyer, the merchant, or the distributor... maybe. To you it might not matter, but it matters to me. And if you think 3% is such a negligible amount that it's fine, then why not just raise the sales tax from 7% to 10%? It's all the same, right?

"Price elasticity" is what determines how much a price actually drops. Not everything reacts the same way, I guess.

Two or three percent is just too much. It's hard to regulate a cartel made up of a few players who are making billions of dollars. I doubt you'll convince me that market is truly free.
Debit cards are getting better though, they're cheaper, and things like NFC payments are pretty convenient.

I gave you an example earlier where the sales tax was slashed by about 10% in the final price, yet prices didn't budge at all. Why would you expect to feel a 2-3% cost reduction as a consumer if you didn't even feel a 10% tax cut? We're talking about small shops here, like coffee houses and stuff.
Unfortunately, the market is far too deregulated, so merchants just take whatever they want.

Charles Ramos7 said:I gave you an example earlier where the sales tax was slashed by about 10% in the final price, yet prices didn't budge at all. Why would you expect to feel a 2-3% cost reduction as a consumer if you didn't even feel a 10% tax cut? We're talking about small shops here, like coffee houses and stuff.
Unfortunately, the market is far too deregulated, so merchants just take whatever they want.

Like I said earlier: "supply and demand elasticity" is what sets the price. So, everyone just gets lumped together regardless of the details. Plus, I'm also suggesting that having every single transaction go through a credit card just makes the macro economy worse—mostly because a huge chunk of those fees just flows right out of the US. I'm really talking about how much the credit card market lacks actual competition.