School Reform: Thoughts?

@sunshinestar
It’s almost as if today’s kids aren't already incompetent enough... lacking the basic motor skills our generation developed without a tablet glued to our hands at all times. 🤦

So, your vision for a 21st-century educational reform is essentially based on children who spend their days cleaning, cooking, and tapping away at a screen with a single finger? Especially when they don't even touch actual computer science until middle school, let alone meaningful foreign language instruction which most American schools barely start until much later... though I suppose we still find time for two hours of religious studies a week starting in first grade.
I have absolutely nothing against teaching them life skills like housework, but domestic help isn't exactly the primary flaw in the American education system... 🤣

Jason Ortiz5 said:Honestly, you have to wonder about parents who can't even teach their own kids how to scrub a toilet.
I really think schools should focus on teaching actual subjects, not basic life skills like that. And no, there is absolutely no way I’d let my kid be cleaning up after anyone else. Every time I hear stories about how some kids act in class, I just want to tell their parents they should be the ones doing the scrubbing for their little angels instead.

Look, school isn't just about textbooks; it's an institution meant to help shape character, too.

The school system has a responsibility to help raise these kids, regardless of whether the parents are stepping up at home or completely dropping the ball on basic life lessons.

A school's job is to teach reading, writing, and math.
It shouldn't matter if the parents have already covered those basics at home or not.

And quite frankly, the school board shouldn't have the authority to force students into cleaning up after other people—period.

Lisa Rivera said:@sunshinestar
It’s almost as if today’s kids aren't already incompetent enough... lacking the basic motor skills our generation developed without a tablet glued to our hands at all times. 🤦

So, your vision for a 21st-century educational reform is essentially based on children who spend their days cleaning, cooking, and tapping away at a screen with a single finger? Especially when they don't even touch actual computer science until middle school, let alone meaningful foreign language instruction which most American schools barely start until much later... though I suppose we still find time for two hours of religious studies a week starting in first grade.
I have absolutely nothing against teaching them life skills like housework, but domestic help isn't exactly the primary flaw in the American education system... 🤣

First off, I'm a guy.

Second, are you implying that a decent education is built on domestic chores?

Look, some people argue that students today are already drowning in coursework.
But you think they have way too little on their plates, which is why you're pushing for foreign language classes starting in kindergarten.

The whole thing surrounding Jokić's reform is a total mystery—nobody actually knows what's written in those proposals—yet everyone is backing it. Some people support it because they're terrified of extra workloads (kind of like you), while others think it’s going to axe foreign language programs entirely.

shadowhawk31 said:First off, I'm a guy.

Second, are you implying that a decent education is built on domestic chores?

Look, some people argue that students today are already drowning in coursework.
But you think they have way too little on their plates, which is why you're pushing for foreign language classes starting in kindergarten.

The whole thing surrounding Jokić's reform is a total mystery—nobody actually knows what's written in those proposals—yet everyone is backing it. Some people support it because they're terrified of extra workloads (kind of like you), while others think it’s going to axe foreign language programs entirely.

To begin with, your gender is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Furthermore, I never claimed the Japanese system was based on domestic chores; your own suggestion was essentially to "fire the janitors and give them tablets."

The sheer volume of useless filler in a curriculum isn't strictly tied to the number of subjects offered. If students can manage sitting through two hours of religious studies a week memorizing trivialities, I fail to see why it would be such a burden to spend one hour learning something genuinely vital for the modern era... something like computer science or a second foreign language...

Japan is kind of the same way—I was reading about it the other day—they have such a heartbreakingly high rate of suicide, especially among students attempting it.
Yeah, let's all follow their lead, shall we?

shadowhawk31 said:Look, school isn't just about textbooks; it's an institution meant to help shape character, too.

The school system has a responsibility to help raise these kids, regardless of whether the parents are stepping up at home or completely dropping the ball on basic life lessons.

A school's job is to teach reading, writing, and math.
It shouldn't matter if the parents have already covered those basics at home or not.

And quite frankly, the school board shouldn't have the authority to force students into cleaning up after other people—period.

Is society actually going to get any better if we prioritize teaching kids that it's okay to clean up after others for free, instead of actually educating them in civics, culture, or their actual school subjects?

So, if this reform actually kicks in starting next school year, does that mean my five-year-old will be expected to start first grade just a year later than usual? I'm trying to wrap my head around the timeline here...

School isn't just about academics—it’s an institution for upbringing too.
The government, through the public school system, needs to step up regarding child development, because let's face it, not every kid is learning work ethic at home.
For those who actually pick up responsibilities while they're still under their parents' roof, transitioning to the classroom won't be such a shock.

It’s the same deal with literacy—kids who learn to read and write at home aren't going to struggle when they hit the classroom. In fact, they usually have a head start....

That’s why we need this dual role of parents and schools—as a safety net in case one side drops the ball.

Look, I agree that raising kids is primarily a parental duty, but plenty of parents just don't pull it off successfully. Kids are important.
The goal is for them to actually learn.
In my opinion, if a kid turns out completely undisciplined, yeah, the parents are to blame.
But the focus shouldn't constantly shift back to the parents; the focus should be on the children. The State—society, specifically the school system—has to look out for them.

And for the record, I wasn't even talking about teachers as individuals here.
I really don't want to drag the whole "teacher salaries" debate into every single conversation. Can we please move past that?

Everyone’s standards have slipped lately. It’s not necessarily because of one specific reason, but honestly, that’s yet another tangent.
As a profession, teachers aren't the exception to this decline—they're part of the rule.
Nobody gets to use a drop in general standards as an excuse for being lazy.
If anything, I think today's teachers are actually better than previous generations.
But again, that's not the point.
The point is the system.
Let's leave the finances out of it for a second.
The changes I’m advocating for don't require extra taxpayer dollars.

We shouldn't be confusing cause and effect.
I find it totally misplaced to label teacher pay as an "investment in our children."
It’s also completely ridiculous to make excuses like, "we can't emulate the Japanese model because our teachers don't get paid like theirs."

The argument always goes: "First give us better raises, then we'll talk about implementing the Japanese way."
They are mixing up the cause and the consequence.
The Japanese didn't start earning high wages and then suddenly progress; it was the exact opposite.
They progressed while they were still struggling, and *then* the wealth followed.

What do people expect? That money will just fall from the sky and suddenly everything will work perfectly? Is that how you teach kids?
Give me a break!
Where are we supposed to get more money than what's already being provided right now?

Now, regarding tech—we definitely need computer science as a required subject.
But no, not starting in first grade. Please.

First, we need to clarify what "computer science" actually means in this context.
If we're talking about web design, coding, and all that specialized stuff, then no, that absolutely shouldn't be mandatory for every single student—certainly not in elementary school.

However, if we mean teaching kids how to use a computer, a tablet, or basic software for writing and math? Yes, absolutely. But that doesn't need to be its own standalone subject.
Personally, I think it's much more effective to integrate these tools into core subjects; for instance, using Word during English class or Excel during Math, Physics, or Chemistry.
At the same time, we cannot neglect handwriting and basic mental math without relying on computers, calculators, tablets, or whatever else.

I wouldn't call myself a huge tablet enthusiast, but I'm not against them either.
I assume a kid will probably need to be proficient with these devices later in life, so we shouldn't isolate them from technology, but it's not the most vital thing in the world.

Yet, it seems like there’s this total consensus among parents, students, teachers, and the media that the most important thing in education is the tablet.

And of course, the "most important" thing is making sure the school budget is big enough to buy every single kid a tablet. I disagree, though I know I'm in the minority here.

You see how people rave about the Swedish school system because they hand out tablets to everyone.
If they started handing out two tablets per kid, they'd probably be even more obsessed with their educational system.

Where on earth are you getting this nonsense about tablets from? I mean, honestly, what’s the actual issue here? If they help improve how kids learn and stop them from lugging around massive stacks of paperwork every single day, I don't see the problem.

Back at my kid's school, we actually had a vote on what should be bought for the district. We were choosing between individual lockers for every student, new tables for the cafeteria, or those tablets everyone is talking about. Tablets actually got the fewest votes, but somehow, despite that, the administration decided to go with the tablets anyway. So, if the community didn't even ask for it, whose decision was it really?

Why don't you go check out Sprajc's website for once?

There are at least a dozen people hanging around there every single day, obsessing over school stuff.

And honestly, hundreds of people are just wasting their lives scrolling through tablets.

I even saw an article about some guy's social media update after he moved to Sweden.

In his post, he was claiming that in Sweden, the government buys every kid a tablet and they’ve got taxi drivers chauffeuring everyone to and from class.

Man, if you could see the absolute meltdown people had in the comments over that.

Wait—so what, you're actually advocating for everything to be digital from now on? Like, no more notebooks, ever?

What happens to handwriting? What about developing actual fine motor skills and all that?

shadowhawk31 said:Why don't you go check out Sprajc's website for once?

There are at least a dozen people hanging around there every single day, obsessing over school stuff.

And honestly, hundreds of people are just wasting their lives scrolling through tablets.

I even saw an article about some guy's social media update after he moved to Sweden.

In his post, he was claiming that in Sweden, the government buys every kid a tablet and they’ve got taxi drivers chauffeuring everyone to and from class.

Man, if you could see the absolute meltdown people had in the comments over that.

Wait—so what, you're actually advocating for everything to be digital from now on? Like, no more notebooks, ever?

What happens to handwriting? What about developing actual fine motor skills and all that?

Where on earth did you get that idea? Honestly, though, thanks for providing such a perfect example of why we need to double down on teaching kids actual literacy and reading comprehension. ☕

As for Sprajc, I really can't wrap my head around using blog comments (thousands? millions? 🤦 ) as some kind of benchmark for anything.

It’s not some stupid take. You literally wrote about this yourself.

So, what exactly are you using as your benchmark for how much public opinion on tablets has shifted among Americans?

Do you actually have anything more substantial to point to than Sprajcov’s Facebook page as a relevant metric?

shadowhawk31 said:It’s not some stupid take. You literally wrote about this yourself.

So, what exactly are you using as your benchmark for how much public opinion on tablets has shifted among Americans?

Do you actually have anything more substantial to point to than Sprajcov’s Facebook page as a relevant metric?

By the way, I'm a woman. My handle and my avatar pretty much give that away. Since basic logic seems to be a struggle for you, I’m just gonna call it quits here. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to have a real conversation with someone who thinks a single Facebook page is a perfect representation of how the whole country feels.

Not to mention the lack of literacy, the bluntness, and just general saltiness... But hey, feel free to keep rambling about how some obscure tool is going to be the magic fix for the nation's prosperity.

Honestly, we won't be able to compete on a global scale anytime soon if our country and education system stay like this.😂

rowdypanther12 said:Honestly, we won't be able to compete on a global scale anytime soon if our country and education system stay like this.😂

Oh, come on now! For decades, American workers have been famous all over Europe for being the absolute pros at fixing leaky toilets. 😀

I can't believe I'm even sitting here typing this out—it’s honestly exhausting just thinking about it—but someone has to say it. Every single time we get into these discussions, it feels like we're hitting the same brick wall over and over again. It’s frustrating, really. I try to be reasonable, I truly do, but then I see certain people posting the same tired arguments and I just lose my cool a little bit. I was looking back at what shadowhawk31 was saying earlier, and honestly? It’s just... it's a lot. There's a massive gap between how things actually work on the ground here in the States and the idealized version some people seem to have in their heads. You can't just ignore the reality of the situation and expect everyone to nod along. It doesn't work that way. And don't even get me started on the stuff Richard Perez3 keeps bringing up. It’s like listening to a broken record. I know, I know, I sound like a cranky old man sometimes—believe me, I feel it—but there’s a logic to what I’m saying if you actually take a second to sit with it. It’s not just about being contrarian for the sake of it; it’s about seeing the actual mechanics of how these systems function in America. Look, I’m not trying to start a fight, though I realize that’s probably how this is going to end up. I just think we need to be more deliberate. We need to stop skimming the surface and actually dig into the messiness of it all. If we don't, we're just spinning our wheels. Anyway, rant over. I need a coffee. kaže:
Honestly, look—we’re never going to be able to compete on a global scale, let alone hold our own in Europe, if we keep letting our government and our education system rot like this. It's just a fact. 😂

And after Joker's little "reform" goes through, what exactly are we supposed to do? Seriously.

I can't believe I'm even sitting here typing this out—it’s honestly exhausting how often we have to circle back to the same nonsense—but apparently, someone needs to say it. The sheer level of incompetence being displayed right now is actually staggering. We aren't just talking about a minor slip-up or a little oversight here; we're looking at a fundamental breakdown of common sense that would make a toddler blush. It feels like every time we think we've finally reached a baseline of stability, some new disaster rolls in to remind us how fragile everything really is. And don't even get me started on the excuses people are throwing around to justify this mess—it's pathetic, really. I mean, look at the logic being applied. Or rather, the complete lack thereof. It’s like everyone involved has collectively decided that reality is merely a suggestion. You see these people acting like they’ve uncovered some profound truth, when in reality, they’re just tripping over their own feet and calling it "innovation." It's frustrating, it's draining, and frankly, it's insulting to anyone with half a brain cell left working. Anyway, I'll probably regret venting like this because I know nobody listens anyway, but there it is. Just my two cents in a sea of stupidity.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Oh, come on now! For decades, American workers have been famous all over Europe for being the absolute pros at fixing leaky toilets. 😀

It’s exactly the same way here in America.

Jason Ortiz5 said:By the way, I'm a woman. My handle and my avatar pretty much give that away. Since basic logic seems to be a struggle for you, I’m just gonna call it quits here. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to have a real conversation with someone who thinks a single Facebook page is a perfect representation of how the whole country feels.

Not to mention the lack of literacy, the bluntness, and just general saltiness... But hey, feel free to keep rambling about how some obscure tool is going to be the magic fix for the nation's prosperity.

If I can jump in here for a sec.
Honestly, I think the best thing we could actually do for our kids and their future is teach them how to clean up their own crap.
And they gotta be the ones doing it.
If people want to reduce the amount of cleaning needed, they should probably just start by reducing the amount of—well, crap.
Both figuratively and literally.
Dead serious.

When some random group of people handles all your messes, you never actually learn what you're doing.
Instead, you've got a whole bunch of parents cleaning up after their kids forever, and then we act shocked when young adults turn out the way they do.
The Japanese have a solid concept down.
Even if it comes with a lot of pressure.
I’d much rather aim for excellence than just washing my hands of responsibility and duty.

Not sure if I’m making sense, but everything I said applies both ways—literally and metaphorically.

Richard Perez3 said:If I can jump in here for a sec.
Honestly, I think the best thing we could actually do for our kids and their future is teach them how to clean up their own crap.
And they gotta be the ones doing it.
If people want to reduce the amount of cleaning needed, they should probably just start by reducing the amount of—well, crap.
Both figuratively and literally.
Dead serious.

When some random group of people handles all your messes, you never actually learn what you're doing.
Instead, you've got a whole bunch of parents cleaning up after their kids forever, and then we act shocked when young adults turn out the way they do.
The Japanese have a solid concept down.
Even if it comes with a lot of pressure.
I’d much rather aim for excellence than just washing my hands of responsibility and duty.

Not sure if I’m making sense, but everything I said applies both ways—literally and metaphorically.

Basically, you're just expanding on my point: there's zero use in teaching someone they're obligated to clean up someone else's garbage; everyone needs to learn how to sweep up their own. 🤷

I can't believe I'm even seeing this—it’s like some kind of fever dream. Honestly, looking at what was said here... it just makes my head spin. It’s one thing to have an opinion, but it's another thing entirely to be this spectacularly wrong about how things work in the real world. I mean, seriously? The sheer lack of logic is almost impressive, if it weren't so incredibly frustrating. You’d think after all this time, people would realize that you can't just make stuff up and expect it to hold water. It doesn't work that way. Not in America, and certainly not in any sensible discussion. It’s exhausting, really—trying to have a coherent conversation when people are just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. I'm sitting here trying to make sense of it, scratching my head, thinking maybe I missed something obvious, but no—it’s just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Just... wow.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Basically, you're just expanding on my point: there's zero use in teaching someone they're obligated to clean up someone else's garbage; everyone needs to learn how to sweep up their own. 🤷

There’s honestly no better way to learn life lessons than by cleaning up after other people's messes.
Honestly, there’s just no better school for learning how to be a total slob—you know, those people who have absolutely zero concept of not littering, yet somehow think it’s everyone else's job to pick up after them. It’s pathetic, really.

Would you handle things differently if you were teaching kids in school to actually clean up after themselves? For instance—and I’m just throwing this out there—would you have a teacher following every single kid around, checking their desk every damn time to make sure they actually cleared their mess?
Would you seriously go as far as installing cameras in changing rooms where kids are naked?

I mean, let’s be real here—it isn't just about scrubbing the toilets. We’re talking about the entire damn classroom, the playground, the hallways... the whole works. It’s everything.

So, let me get this straight: if my kid cleans up someone else's mess, is the kid who actually made the mess suddenly going to have some epiphany and realize that wasn't okay?

And honestly, I never agreed with making the innocent party clean up after others—not even back when I was in school. All that taught me was that the people caught in the crossfire usually get screwed over, while the ones constantly causing trouble are experts at acting sweet and innocent just to trick everyone else into being their errand runners.