School Reform: Thoughts?

Jason Ortiz5 said:Basically, you're just expanding on my point: there's zero use in teaching someone they're obligated to clean up someone else's garbage; everyone needs to learn how to sweep up their own. 🤷

Nah, actually, it's the exact opposite.
That’s the only thing that actually pays off in the long run.
Take the Benigan's example.

Back when I used to wait tables, the absolute worst part wasn't even the bad tips or the crazy customers—it was those people who’d just stand there at the bar and absolutely wreck the ashtrays. They'd leave ash everywhere, all over the counter, just because they had one right in front of them, one on the left, and one on the right. Just total lack of respect for the space. Truly unbelievable.
I'm done. I am officially through with working shifts at bars. Never again. I’ve done my time, and honestly? I'm over it.
I mean, whatever. They're already over there anyway, and they'll have to clean up the mess regardless. I honestly hadn't even given it a second thought.
But that's when I really lost it.

Same goes for everything else.
Knowing how things work in our local city councils, I’ve realized that people don't just refuse to clean up their own messes—they won't even let anyone else touch them.
Honestly, they should just let them spend one day a week cleaning up all the crap. Their own mess and everyone else's too, while they're down there under the sea.
You aren't gonna do a damn thing until you feel the burn yourself. It's easy to talk big when it's not your neck on the line, right? You don't care because it doesn't hurt you. Until it hits home, you're just blowing smoke.
It’s yours. It smells like you, and honestly? It doesn't bother me one bit.
It took me a long time to finally get it—that you actually have to clean up after yourself. Like, it’s not just some chore someone else does; it’s something you gotta feel like is your own responsibility. It’s gotta be a necessity, you know? Not something you drag your feet on, but just part of being an adult.
I honestly think this is a way better way to learn than just leaving it sitting there like it’s some thing they can just... I don't even know, ignore? It's just common sense. Whatever. Look, let's talk about adoption. It’s a heavy topic, but we need to get into it. People always have an opinion on how families should be built, but honestly? It’s complicated. There’s no one-size-fits-all manual for this kind of stuff.

Jason Ortiz5 said:So, let me get this straight: if my kid cleans up someone else's mess, is the kid who actually made the mess suddenly going to have some epiphany and realize that wasn't okay?

And honestly, I never agreed with making the innocent party clean up after others—not even back when I was in school. All that taught me was that the people caught in the crossfire usually get screwed over, while the ones constantly causing trouble are experts at acting sweet and innocent just to trick everyone else into being their errand runners.

See, that's exactly why this whole setup works for everyone involved—no exceptions. There aren't any innocent bystanders or clueless idiots left hanging around to mess things up.

Jason Ortiz5 said:So, let me get this straight: if my kid cleans up someone else's mess, is the kid who actually made the mess suddenly going to have some epiphany and realize that wasn't okay?

And honestly, I never agreed with making the innocent party clean up after others—not even back when I was in school. All that taught me was that the people caught in the crossfire usually get screwed over, while the ones constantly causing trouble are experts at acting sweet and innocent just to trick everyone else into being their errand runners.

Where exactly did I say this reform should be designed so that Jason Ortiz5's kid has to clean up everyone's crap while the other kids don't even have to touch their own messes?

Everyone has to clean up.
I'm not going to get bogged down in the specific methodology or the "who goes first" logistics.
But the bottom line is—every single kid has to clean.

Jason Ortiz5 said:So, let me get this straight: if my kid cleans up someone else's mess, is the kid who actually made the mess suddenly going to have some epiphany and realize that wasn't okay?

And honestly, I never agreed with making the innocent party clean up after others—not even back when I was in school. All that taught me was that the people caught in the crossfire usually get screwed over, while the ones constantly causing trouble are experts at acting sweet and innocent just to trick everyone else into being their errand runners.

You forgot to mention which investigative method we're supposed to use to figure out whose crap is left in the toilet or whose paper is on the floor, just so we don't cause any "confusion."

Jason Ortiz5 said:So, let me get this straight: if my kid cleans up someone else's mess, is the kid who actually made the mess suddenly going to have some epiphany and realize that wasn't okay?

And honestly, I never agreed with making the innocent party clean up after others—not even back when I was in school. All that taught me was that the people caught in the crossfire usually get screwed over, while the ones constantly causing trouble are experts at acting sweet and innocent just to trick everyone else into being their errand runners.

And you think that teaches them anything wrong about life?

What do you honestly think awaits them later on in life?
Absolute justice?

Jason Ortiz5 said:So, let me get this straight: if my kid cleans up someone else's mess, is the kid who actually made the mess suddenly going to have some epiphany and realize that wasn't okay?

And honestly, I never agreed with making the innocent party clean up after others—not even back when I was in school. All that taught me was that the people caught in the crossfire usually get screwed over, while the ones constantly causing trouble are experts at acting sweet and innocent just to trick everyone else into being their errand runners.

Well, that's exactly why everyone needs to clean.

What's the point of acting all sweet and charming if everyone is forced to clean anyway?

That "sweetness" would only matter if the proposal was strictly that everyone cleans up their own damn mess.
And let's be real—if we actually tried to track down whose mess was whose without installing cameras in the school bathroom stalls, half these "sweet" kids would end up looking completely innocent to a bunch of teachers.

Richard Perez3 said:Nah, actually, it's the exact opposite.
That’s the only thing that actually pays off in the long run.
Take the Benigan's example.

Back when I used to wait tables, the absolute worst part wasn't even the bad tips or the crazy customers—it was those people who’d just stand there at the bar and absolutely wreck the ashtrays. They'd leave ash everywhere, all over the counter, just because they had one right in front of them, one on the left, and one on the right. Just total lack of respect for the space. Truly unbelievable.
I'm done. I am officially through with working shifts at bars. Never again. I’ve done my time, and honestly? I'm over it.
I mean, whatever. They're already over there anyway, and they'll have to clean up the mess regardless. I honestly hadn't even given it a second thought.
But that's when I really lost it.

Same goes for everything else.
Knowing how things work in our local city councils, I’ve realized that people don't just refuse to clean up their own messes—they won't even let anyone else touch them.
Honestly, they should just let them spend one day a week cleaning up all the crap. Their own mess and everyone else's too, while they're down there under the sea.
You aren't gonna do a damn thing until you feel the burn yourself. It's easy to talk big when it's not your neck on the line, right? You don't care because it doesn't hurt you. Until it hits home, you're just blowing smoke.
It’s yours. It smells like you, and honestly? It doesn't bother me one bit.
It took me a long time to finally get it—that you actually have to clean up after yourself. Like, it’s not just some chore someone else does; it’s something you gotta feel like is your own responsibility. It’s gotta be a necessity, you know? Not something you drag your feet on, but just part of being an adult.
I honestly think this is a way better way to learn than just leaving it sitting there like it’s some thing they can just... I don't even know, ignore? It's just common sense. Whatever. Look, let's talk about adoption. It’s a heavy topic, but we need to get into it. People always have an opinion on how families should be built, but honestly? It’s complicated. There’s no one-size-fits-all manual for this kind of stuff.

See, that's exactly why this whole setup works for everyone involved—no exceptions. There aren't any innocent bystanders or clueless idiots left hanging around to mess things up.

So wait, we're going to reward the people who already clean up their own mess by making them clean up everyone else's too? Your cafe story isn't really a fair comparison since you took that job and were getting paid for it—you had every right to just say, "Screw you guys, clean your own ash," and walk out the door.

And let's be real, a system where there aren't people taking advantage of others or acting like fools just doesn't exist. All it takes is one person playing favorites and one person being the favorite, and all those big ideas about a "perfect system" go straight out the window.

shadowhawk31 said:Where exactly did I say this reform should be designed so that Jason Ortiz5's kid has to clean up everyone's crap while the other kids don't even have to touch their own messes?

Everyone has to clean up.
I'm not going to get bogged down in the specific methodology or the "who goes first" logistics.
But the bottom line is—every single kid has to clean.

You forgot to mention which investigative method we're supposed to use to figure out whose crap is left in the toilet or whose paper is on the floor, just so we don't cause any "confusion."

And you think that teaches them anything wrong about life?

What do you honestly think awaits them later on in life?
Absolute justice?

Well, that's exactly why everyone needs to clean.

What's the point of acting all sweet and charming if everyone is forced to clean anyway?

That "sweetness" would only matter if the proposal was strictly that everyone cleans up their own damn mess.
And let's be real—if we actually tried to track down whose mess was whose without installing cameras in the school bathroom stalls, half these "sweet" kids would end up looking completely innocent to a bunch of teachers.

Hey there, what planet are you living on? There will always be people who cause trouble, play dumb (or have their parents swoop in to fix things), and walk away scot-free. Which just means some kids will always end up cleaning more than others.

Are you really arguing that we should bring this kind of system into schools just so kids realize the world is broken and corrupt? What does that even teach the ones who didn't have to clean?

I seriously can't wait for my kid to grow up and get as far away from this place as possible. ☕

Jason Ortiz5 said:

So wait, we're going to reward the people who already clean up their own mess by making them clean up everyone else's too? Your cafe story isn't really a fair comparison since you took that job and were getting paid for it—you had every right to just say, "Screw you guys, clean your own ash," and walk out the door.

And let's be real, a system where there aren't people taking advantage of others or acting like fools just doesn't exist. All it takes is one person playing favorites and one person being the favorite, and all those big ideas about a "perfect system" go straight out the window.
So wait, we're going to reward the people who already clean up their own mess by making them clean up everyone else's too? Your cafe story isn't really a fair comparison since you took that job and were getting paid for it—you had every right to just say, "Screw you guys, clean your own ash," and walk out the door.

And let's be real, a system where there aren't people taking advantage of others or acting like fools just doesn't exist. All it takes is one person playing favorites and one person being the favorite, and all those big ideas about a "perfect system" go straight out the window.
Clearly we aren't on the same page here.
Whatever. 🙂

There’s a new proposal on the table to tweak the Every Student Succeeds Act, and it’s honestly a mess. They want to make certain topics elective, basically letting kids opt out based on what their parents believe. How is a teacher even supposed to function like that? You can't just tell one group of students one thing and then flip the script for the next group. It’s going to be total chaos in the classroom.

Can a teacher actually teach different things to different kids just because of their parents' worldviews?

🤦

And who, exactly, gave this person the authority to lecture me on every conceivable worldview?
If they want to include every single perspective imaginable in the Common Core State Standards, fine, let them teach us everything under the sun.
I certainly won't be wasting my time prepping seven different lesson plans just because someone decided that a particular viewpoint clashes with their own personal philosophy.
They should just embrace homeschooling instead. Though, I suppose we’d need to implement some sort of standardized testing first.
God, imagine the chaos that would cause.

Larry Walker24 said:There’s a new proposal on the table to tweak the Every Student Succeeds Act, and it’s honestly a mess. They want to make certain topics elective, basically letting kids opt out based on what their parents believe. How is a teacher even supposed to function like that? You can't just tell one group of students one thing and then flip the script for the next group. It’s going to be total chaos in the classroom.

Can a teacher actually teach different things to different kids just because of their parents' worldviews?

🤦

No, they can't.
But they *can* (and honestly, some do) teach based on their own personal beliefs or the views of the principal (just look at those school events where everything revolves around a specific religious viewpoint)

To me, it feels like this part is actually meant to act as a "small door" to prevent certain topics from being introduced at all, because teachers will just claim it’s too complicated to implement properly.
Plus, who is going to monitor the teachers to see if every single parent signed off on opting out, or if it was just five people? What's the timeline for parents to decide? At the start of the school year, or right before the lesson starts?
And what happens if there’s a kid in the class with divorced parents, where one wants them to learn about sex ed and the other doesn't?
Does the child have the right to skip school that day? And if they do, where are they supposed to go?

In practice, this is going to end up being treated just like civics or health class. It’ll be a total wash. The reality is that there isn't even a shred of preparation in place for anyone involved.

Shut down the schools and send everyone out to work the fields—honestly, enough is enough. This whole setup just doesn't make sense anymore. ☕

Experts have weighed in on the public debate regarding proposed changes to education laws, pushing back against a suggestion that would allow parents to opt their children out of certain interdisciplinary modules or cross-curricular topics.

http://factcheck.org/2017/12/11/education-law-debate/

Such a provision could easily clash with the legal goals of our education system: "to raise and educate students in line with general cultural and civilizational values, human rights, and children's rights; to prepare them for life in a multicultural world through respect for diversity and tolerance; and to enable active, responsible participation in the democratic development of society." Furthermore, the law mandates that children have a right to "acquire core competencies based on (...) scientific knowledge and achievements."
"We believe these educational goals are impossible to reach if parents are allowed to cherry-pick content. Simply being a parent doesn't automatically grant the expertise required to decide which scientific discoveries and achievements—or which specific teaching methods—are best suited to meet these objectives," explains the American Psychological Association.

If this actually works out, I’m going to tell my mom to stop making my kid study geography altogether. After all, the world is clearly just a flat plane carried on the backs of elephants and turtles.

So far, the reform is limited strictly to vocational schools. They're pulling funds from European Union grants to outfit workshops for trade occupations.

It sounds promising, but I suspect they've started in all the wrong places... I get that vocational schools have struggled to keep pace with the labor market for decades, but the priority should be modernizing and equipping our elementary schools first. As for the debate mentioned above regarding civic education, I don't follow it—nor do I understand why only a handful of specialists have weighed in. Regardless, those cross-curricular topics won't actually be implemented; neither will collaborative learning or project-based instruction, despite how much everyone talks about them. Where they actually happen, it depends entirely on whether a teacher is enthusiastic or if it just looks good on paper. Given the massive amount of money coming from the European Union, it feels like the discussion about societal values is just a way to distract from the real issues plaguing our school system.

rowdypanther12 said:If this actually works out, I’m going to tell my mom to stop making my kid study geography altogether. After all, the world is clearly just a flat plane carried on the backs of elephants and turtles.

asap regarding geography: my daughter was cramming for her test yesterday, and since she likes to study out loud, I ended up catching some of it... For example, she had to memorize the population density of Kazakhstan. And then there were all these tongue-twisting, pointless facts designed just to see if you can memorize them.

I mean, seriously. Kazakhstan, plus the names of every single island, river, valley, mountain, and even the specific crops and main industrial exports for every tiny little corner of Asia... All in 6th grade. Or ever, really. I'm speechless. Aside from the obvious ones...

Jason Ortiz5 said:asap regarding geography: my daughter was cramming for her test yesterday, and since she likes to study out loud, I ended up catching some of it... For example, she had to memorize the population density of Kazakhstan. And then there were all these tongue-twisting, pointless facts designed just to see if you can memorize them.

I mean, seriously. Kazakhstan, plus the names of every single island, river, valley, mountain, and even the specific crops and main industrial exports for every tiny little corner of Asia... All in 6th grade. Or ever, really. I'm speechless. Aside from the obvious ones...

Could you please, just for once, provide the author and the specific textbook title where this is written, specifically the one that supposedly requires students to master this?🙂

I don't know about you guys, but I've been feeling super mellow lately. Just one of those vibes where everything feels light and easy. It’s like that feeling when you finally catch a green light after being stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the I-95. Just total bliss. Anyway, hope everyone is having a killer day! kaže:
Come on, please! Just tell me who the author is and what textbook this is from? I need to know which book is actually asking students to memorize all this stuff.🙂

I honestly have no clue if this stuff came straight out of a textbook, a workbook, or if they just dictated it to them on the spot. It’s not like I’m in a massive rush to check it once we get home, but let’s be real—since you’re always going to have your own "takes" and those long-winded rants about your specific views anyway, I think I'll skip checking it for your sake. I'll do it for anyone else, though, besides you and maybe two or three other people who act just like you.

You really think I made up Uzbekistan just to take a swing at teachers? Seriously? It’s like you automatically assume parents are out to get them. You always jump straight to the worst-case scenario with us.

Maybe she’s just a perfectionist who thinks she needs to master everything right away.

Anyway, even if it feels totally unnecessary, it can't hurt—it's good practice for brainpower and discipline. It’s not like she’s trying to memorize a hundred data points a day.

So, she told me it’s just some kind of workbook, but I won't know for sure which one until tonight.

Seriously though, who actually benefits from grinding through useless facts that everyone's just going to forget by tomorrow? It’s such a waste of time when you could be focusing on stuff that actually matters, even if it isn't officially part of the school curriculum.

If you really want to teach yourself discipline, you might as well just give yourself a good smack on the wrist. ☕ It’s about as productive as anything else we're doing here.

Quick question regarding the reading assignment for Coca-Cola in Paris...😛What did the Greek shipowner refer to the vessels as?😛Saying it was about famous paintings isn't quite right; the actual answer😛pertains to those legendary works of art...

Honestly, I feel like most people need to undergo a complete mental overhaul before we even bother attempting to reform the education system.